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Author Topic: Enoch, Church Fathers and the Giants of Genesis  (Read 3028 times)

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Offline Pax Vobis

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Enoch, Church Fathers and the Giants of Genesis
« on: August 17, 2022, 09:10:22 PM »
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  • Here are quotes I found from the Church Fathers on their belief that fallen angels "married" women and created the Giants/Nephalim.  This view agrees with Enoch's description.

    Justin Martyr  (died 165 AD) -- Church Father
    “God, when He had made the whole world, and subjected things earthly to man, and arranged the heavenly elements for the increase of fruits and rotation of the seasons, and appointed this divine law — for these things also He evidently made for man — committed the care of men and of all things under heaven to angels whom He appointed over them. But the angels transgressed this appointment, and were captivated by love of women.” — Second Apology; Chapter V.

    St Irenaeus  (died 202 AD) -- disciple of St Polycarp, who was a disciple of the Apostle St John
    “And for a very long while wickedness extended and spread, and reached and laid hold upon the whole race of mankind, until a very small seed of righteousness remained among them and illicit unions took place upon the earth, since angels were united with the daughters of the race of mankind; and they bore to them sons who for their exceeding greatness were called giants.” — A discourse in the Demonstration of Apostolic Preaching

    St Ambrose  (died 397 AD) -- one of the 4 Great Doctors of the Western Church; converted St Augustine to the Faith
    “The giants (Nephilim) were on the Earth in those days.” (quote from Genesis 6:4)  The author of the divine Scripture does not mean that those giants must be considered, according to the tradition of poets, as sons of the earth but asserts that those whom he defines with such a name because of the extraordinary size of their body were generated by angels and women.” — Ambrose, on Noah, 4.8. Genesis 1–11, Volume 1 edited by Andrew louth, Thomas C. Oden, Marco Conti

    Pope St Clement I  (died 99 AD) -- first Apostolic Father of the Church; 4th pope; name mentioned everyday in the Canon
    “But when, having assumed these forms, they convicted as covetous those who stole them, and changed themselves into the nature of men, in order that, living holily, and showing the possibility of so living, they might subject the ungrateful to punishment, yet having become in all respects men, they also partook of human lust, and being brought under its subjection they fell into cohabitation with women; and being involved with them, and sunk into defilement and altogether emptied of their power, were unable to turn back to the first purity of their proper nature, their members turned away from their fiery substance: for the fire itself, being exhausted by the weight of lust, and changed into flesh, they trode the impious path downward. For they themselves, being fettered with bonds of flesh, were constrained and strongly bound; wherefore they have no more been able to ascend into the heavens.” — Clementine Homilies, Homily VIII, Chapter XIII.

    “But from their unhallowed intercourse spurious men sprang, much greater in stature than ordinary men, whom they afterwards called giants; not those dragon-footed giants who waged war against God, as those blasphemous myths of the Greeks do sing, but wild in manners, and greater than men in size, inasmuch as they were sprung of angels; yet less than angels, as they were born of women."  - Clementine literature


    St Jude in Scripture
    “And the angels which kept their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgement of the great day. Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.” — Jude 1:6–7

    St Peter in Scripture
    “For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgement; and spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing the flood upon the world of the ungodly; And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them and example unto those that should live ungodly; And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked…” — 2 Peter 2:4–7

    Athenagoras of Athens  (died 190 AD) -- Father of the Church
    "Some, free agents [angels], you will observe, such as they were created by God, continued in those things for which God had made and over which He had ordained them; but some outraged both the constitution of their nature and the government entrusted to them: namely, this ruler of matter and its various forms, and others of those who were placed about this first firmament (you know that we say nothing without witnesses, but state the things which have been declared by the prophets); these fell into impure love of virgins, and were subjugated by the flesh, and he became negligent and wicked in the management of the things entrusted to him. Of these lovers of virgins, therefore, were begotten those who are called giants.788 And if something has been said by the poets, too, about the giants, be not surprised at this: worldly wisdom and divine differ as much from each other as truth and plausibility: the one is of heaven and the other of earth; and indeed, according to the prince of matter,— “We know we oft speak lies that look like truths.”

    Commodianus, Catholic philosopher/poet  (died early 300s AD)
    Then the Highest uttered His judgment against them [angels]; and from their seed giants are said to have been born.


    Philo, Jєωιѕн Philosopher  (died 50 AD)
    Therefore he [God] utters no fable whatever respecting the giants; but he wishes to set this fact before your eyes, that some men are born of the earth, and some are born of heaven, and some are born of God...

    Josephus, Jєωιѕн Historian  (died 100 AD)
    For many angels of God accompanied with women, and begat sons that proved unjust, and despisers of all that was good, on account of the confidence they had in their own strength; for the tradition is, that these men did what resembled the acts of those whom the Grecians call giants.


    Lactantius  (died 325 AD) -- Church Father
    “When, therefore, the number of men had begun to increase, God in His forethought, lest the devil, to whom from the beginning He had given power over the earth, should by his subtlety either corrupt or destroy men, as he had done at first, sent angels for the protection and improvement of the human race; and inasmuch as He had given these a free will, He enjoined them above all things not to defile themselves with contamination from the earth, and thus lose the dignity of their heavenly nature. He plainly prohibited them from doing that which He knew that they would do, that they might entertain no hope of pardon. Therefore, while they abode among men, that most deceitful ruler of the earth, by his very association, gradually enticed them to vices, and polluted them by intercourse with women.” – Lactantius, Divine Institutes, Book II, Ch. XV.

    Tertullian  (died 240 AD)
    “We are instructed, moreover, by our sacred books how from certain angels, who fell of their own free-will, there sprang a more wicked demon-brood, condemned of God along with the authors of their race, and that chief we have referred to. It will for the present be enough, however, that some account is given of their work. Their great business is the ruin of mankind. So, from the very first, spiritual wickedness sought our destruction. They inflict, accordingly, upon our bodies diseases and other grievous calamities, while by violent assaults they hurry the soul into sudden and extraordinary excesses.”Apology, Ch. XXII.


    Note:  St Augustine is the main Church Father (that I am aware of) who explains Genesis as "Sons of Shem" (i.e. humans) instead of actual angels who were the fathers of the Giants.  But, he entertained both opinions and wrote about both.  Why did he depart from his Bishop, St Ambrose's view?  I don't know for sure, but there is one theory that in the time when the Church was canonizing Scripture, there were heretics who were turning the people away from the Church by making fun of the belief in fallen angels and giants.  Basically, accusing the Church of sci-fi mumbo jumbo.  It is said that St Augustine and others starting using the term "Sons of Shem" instead.  Is this true?  I haven't researched it enough to know. 

    If there are other important saints/Church Fathers of this early period who disagree with the "fallen angels" theory, I am also unaware. I don't want to give the impression that I am advocating for one position or the other.  I think the Church allows speculation, so I'm speculating.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Enoch, Church Fathers and the Giants of Genesis
    « Reply #1 on: August 17, 2022, 09:11:16 PM »
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  • If you want to read an article series about the Giants, from a Protestant source, here it is.  It's quite entertaining.
    https://beginningandend.com/beginning-end-nephilim-series-back/


    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: Enoch, Church Fathers and the Giants of Genesis
    « Reply #2 on: August 17, 2022, 09:32:38 PM »
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  • Good stuff. Here's my take, although I have yet to really delve into Enochian literature, I have some broad understanding of the story:

    I lean more toward the interpretation that these "angels" were in-fact men, the sons of God, that were intended to preserve the purity of their kind from the impurity of the sons and daughters of Cain's line. I suspect these "sons of God" inspired the tales of the various deities of the pagans, specifically the Greeks, where these sons of God resided upon that mountain where the Garden was once located and had incredible purity of virtue and physical perfection thanks to their descent from Seth. An abode where they were given to "watch" over the lands below, hence the name "Watchers". Given that we all know man was once far more perfect and physically resilient than he is today, to me, this makes sense.

    Then they fell to their lusts upon seeing the daughters of debased men, and therefore, into grave sin, and from there became the playthings of demons. The demons being the source of the wisdom that was given to mankind by Azazel. Just reflect upon the tales of the various pagan gods in Greece, and you'll see these otherwise "perfect" beings fornicating, deceiving, murdering, committing all manner of sins of the flesh, and you can see the underlying state of these fallen "Watchers" or "sons of God" which led to the giants. If we look at Sumerian and Egyptian depictions of the ruling castes, we see a size disparity between the overlords and the masses. Some attribute this to mere artistic symbolism to represent their elevated state; but I think it had more of a purpose to show the great stature that Scripture states these Nephilim/Giants had.
    And then we have the tale of the Promethean fire, where the great gifts of the "gods" were shared with mankind, represented by fire, as a means to express the wisdom to create technology, music, weapons, etc., through this fallen Azazel, who is either a Watcher or a Nephilim (based upon my loose grasp of Enochian texts).

    As for why I lean towards the term "angels" referring to the offspring of Seth; I base it upon Fr. Kramer's interpretation of the first chapter of the Apocalypse, wherein the "angels" of the seven churches are taken to refer to the Bishops of each city. And if these "sons of God" are that line chosen to preserve the true religion prior to the Deluge, then their role is not unlike that of a Bishop, wherein they are there to preserve and pass down sacred Tradition. So the term "angel" in reference to men of an exalted position is appropriate.
    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Enoch, Church Fathers and the Giants of Genesis
    « Reply #3 on: August 17, 2022, 09:56:55 PM »
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  • I used to agree with the "Sons of Shem" theory, but having read the Patristic sources posted by Pax (thank you), I have changed my mind.

    I believe that there were a lower form of angel that had physical / corporeal nature.  This is fascinating really.

    I think that we have looked back upon these texts with a post-scholastic bias.  By the scholastic era, Angels were defined as "pure spirit".  Consequently, it made no sense how they could possibly mate with women or give in to "lust".

    Pope St. Clement:
    Quote
    changed themselves into the nature of men, in order that, living holily, and showing the possibility of so living, they might subject the ungrateful to punishment, yet having become in all respects men, they also partook of human lust,

    Pope St. Clement was very early and likely had direct contact with disciples of the Apostles.

    He writes here that they "changed themselves into the nature of men".

    Lactantius added some more detail.  He said that after men began to become corrupt, God sent these "angels" down to earth in order to help keep men from being thoroughly corrupted.  Of course, it backfired an they themselves became corrupted.  This dovetails with the term used by the Book of Enoch, "Watchers".

    Athenagoras:
    Quote
    Some, free agents [angels], you will observe, such as they were created by God, continued in those things for which God had made and over which He had ordained them; but some outraged both the constitution of their nature and the government entrusted to them: namely, this ruler of matter and its various forms, and others of those who were placed about this first firmament

    I'd love to get a hold of the Greek and see what is translated as "free agents".  So he says that some of them continued on doing the things God had made them for.  But there were a group (a lower choir) that were put in charge of "matter and its various forms" and hanged around the "first firmament" ... which is the physical firmament.

    So, the Ancient Aliens people do a good job of digging up all kinds of cultural legends of these beings that came from the sky and brought them knowledge (of the gods).  These guys of course call them aliens (from other planets).

    But what if God had created this lowest choir of angels that were closest to physical nature, to govern it and and interact with it, and they had a partly-corporeal nature precisely so they could interact with nature.  So perhaps not ALL of the angels were pure spirit, but there was a lower form of angel that had a partially-material nature, perhaps along the lines of what our risen bodies will eventually be like.  Evidently their physical nature was compatible with human nature, but a step above it, where they were capable of fertile relations with human women, and then eventually succuмbed to lust.

    Based on these sources, I do not think that we're talking here about either "pure spirit" angels or the "sons of Seth" vs., say, perhaps, the descendants of Cain.

    Fathers say these were in fact angels.  Angels by definition, and by etymology, are creatures that are in between God and man, above them in a hierarchy.  Whereas the higher choirs of these angels are pure spirit what if there was a lower choir of angels that was in fact partly material, who were not fashioned from the clay of the earth, but rather from a more pure matter.  And there was some kind of genetic component to them that caused their offspring to be gigantic.

    Perhaps all those legends of "gods" that came down from the sky (bringing knowledge with them) and the begat a generation of "heroes" and "giants" were not mere legends but a reference to these very creatures.  Perhaps the Ancient Aliens people are right ... except that these creatures do not originate from other "planets" but from the "first firmament" directly above earth.

    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: Enoch, Church Fathers and the Giants of Genesis
    « Reply #4 on: August 17, 2022, 09:58:38 PM »
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  • I believe that there were a lower form of angel that had physical / corporeal nature.  This is fascinating really.
    So, perhaps like a some other form of spiritual being unique to that time?
    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Enoch, Church Fathers and the Giants of Genesis
    « Reply #5 on: August 17, 2022, 10:00:01 PM »
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  • Giving weight to the theory that "Sons of God" refers to actual angels..in the Old Testament the phrase “sons of God” always refers to angels (Job 1:6; 2:1).

    Now on a certain day, when the sons of God came to stand before the Lord, Satan also was present among them.  (Job 1:6)

    And it came to pass, when on a certain day the sons of God came, and stood before the Lord, and Satan came amongst them, and stood in his sight, (Job 2:1)

    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: Enoch, Church Fathers and the Giants of Genesis
    « Reply #6 on: August 17, 2022, 10:02:34 PM »
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  • Giving weight to the theory that "Sons of God" refers to actual angels..in the Old Testament the phrase “sons of God” always refers to angels (Job 1:6; 2:1).

    Now on a certain day, when the sons of God came to stand before the Lord, Satan also was present among them.  (Job 1:6)

    And it came to pass, when on a certain day the sons of God came, and stood before the Lord, and Satan came amongst them, and stood in his sight, (Job 2:1)
    Yeah, that kind of kills my theory. Very interesting...

    It makes me wonder if there's more to the speculation of St. Thomas(?), and other theologians, as to angels possessing some sort of corporeality.
    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Enoch, Church Fathers and the Giants of Genesis
    « Reply #7 on: August 17, 2022, 10:16:41 PM »
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  • So, perhaps like a some other form of spiritual being unique to that time?

    Or a hybrid being, a perfect intercessor, because they had the spiritual component typical of angels, but also had some kind of capacity to interact with matter.  They would be the ultimate transition between the spiritual realm (God->spiritual angels (higher choirs)->lower choirs->these intermediates->men->animals->matter).  It's always been said that the higher choirs of angels were more purely spiritual somehow than the lower choirs (whatever that means).  They are closer to the pure existence of God, without of course being God themselves.  In fact, one of the Patristic sources said that these were the ones at the first firmament who governed matter ("ruler of matter and its various forms").  Somehow they had the ability to "change their nature" (Pope St. Clement) and assume a corporeal aspect to their nature, perhaps assume these part-spiritual and part-physical bodies (similar perhaps to what we expect of our risen bodies).


    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Enoch, Church Fathers and the Giants of Genesis
    « Reply #8 on: August 17, 2022, 10:23:29 PM »
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  • Then of course it would be fascinating to speculate how these lower angels "fell", succuмbed to lust.  So Tim Staples criticized Enoch for talking about the fall of angles taking place after the Garden of Eden, but maybe there were two sets of "falls" of angels.

    God originally sent these angels to elevate men, but they ended up being dragged down by men, falling into lust, etc.

    One would think that angels would be above being dragged down by concupiscence, so one would have to think that it was more deliberate.  Enoch described it that one of them decided that he wanted to rebel for some reason, and then persuaded the others to join him.  So perhaps it was after that initial rebellion that they then became subject to lust.

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Enoch, Church Fathers and the Giants of Genesis
    « Reply #9 on: August 17, 2022, 10:26:09 PM »
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  • Instead of Ancient Aliens, we could call them Ancient Angelions.  So perhaps those guys were right (but wrong at the same time).

    One of the interesting aspects of the ancient alien legends is that many of them said that they came down from the constellation Orion ... and others from other constellations.  If you believe these constellations are millions of light years away, then they're aliens.  But if they are, as some of us think, actually up in the firmament, then the one Patristic statement that they came from about the "first firmament" starts to make sense.

    Perhaps the ancient stories of these beings that came down from heaven and taught them things, and built the various megalithic structures, founded cultures, etc. ... and then had "heroic" offspring were totally on the mark.  These cultures said they came from the sky.  Greeks had legends about Zeus coming down and impregnating women.  It's easy to write that stuff off as purely made up, but it what if it wasn't totally made up, but a reference to these "sons of God" that came down from the firmament (or down from Olympus or the sky)?

    Offline Tradman

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    Re: Enoch, Church Fathers and the Giants of Genesis
    « Reply #10 on: August 17, 2022, 10:35:09 PM »
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  • St. Augustine writes in Book 15, Ch. 23 of the City of God:

    "In the third book of this work (c. 5) we made a passing reference to this question, but did not decide whether angels, inasmuch as they are spirits, could have bodily intercourse with women. For it is written, Who makes His angels spirits, that is, He makes those who are by nature spirits His angels by appointing them to the duty of bearing His messages. For the Greek word ἄγγελος, which in Latin appears as angelus, means a messenger. But whether the Psalmist speaks of their bodies when he adds, and His ministers a flaming fire, or means that God's ministers ought to blaze with love as with a spiritual fire, is doubtful. However, the same trustworthy Scripture testifies that angels have appeared to men in such bodies as could not only be seen, but also touched. There is, too, a very general rumor, which many have verified by their own experience, or which trustworthy persons who have heard the experience of others corroborate, that sylvans and fauns, who are commonly called incubi, had often made wicked assaults upon women, and satisfied their lust upon them; and that certain devils, called Duses by the Gauls, are constantly attempting and effecting this impurity is so generally affirmed, that it were impudent to deny it. From these assertions, indeed, I dare not determine whether there be some spirits embodied in an aerial substance (for this element, even when agitated by a fan, is sensibly felt by the body), and who are capable of lust and of mingling sensibly with women; but certainly I could by no means believe that God's holy angels could at that time have so fallen, nor can I think that it is of them the Apostle Peter said, For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment. 2 Peter 2:4 I think he rather speaks of these who first apostatized from God, along with their chief the devil, who enviously deceived the first man under the form of a serpent. But the same holy Scripture affords the most ample testimony that even godly men have been called angels; for of John it is written: Behold, I send my messenger (angel) before Your face, who shall prepare Your way. Mark 1:2 And the prophet Malachi, by a peculiar grace specially communicated to him, was called an angel. Malachi 2:7."

    And on the valid elements of Sacred Tradition in the Book of Enoch, he admits:

    "Let us omit, then, the fables of those scriptures which are called apocryphal, because their obscure origin was unknown to the fathers from whom the authority of the true Scriptures has been transmitted to us by a most certain and well-ascertained succession. For though there is some truth in these apocryphal writings, yet they contain so many false statements, that they have no canonical authority. We cannot deny that Enoch, the seventh from Adam, left some divine writings, for this is asserted by the Apostle Jude in his canonical epistle. But it is not without reason that these writings have no place in that canon of Scripture which was preserved in the temple of the Hebrew people by the diligence of successive priests; for their antiquity brought them under suspicion, and it was impossible to ascertain whether these were his genuine writings, and they were not brought forward as genuine by the persons who were found to have carefully preserved the canonical books by a successive transmission. So that the writings which are produced under his name, and which contain these fables about the giants, saying that their fathers were not men, are properly judged by prudent men to be not genuine; just as many writings are produced by heretics under the names both of other prophets, and more recently, under the names of the apostles, all of which, after careful examination, have been set apart from canonical authority under the title of Apocrypha. There is therefore no doubt that, according to the Hebrew and Christian canonical Scriptures, there were many giants before the deluge, and that these were citizens of the earthly society of men, and that the sons of God, who were according to the flesh the sons of Seth, sunk into this community when they forsook righteousness. Nor need we wonder that giants should be born even from these. For all of their children were not giants; but there were more then than in the remaining periods since the deluge. And it pleased the Creator to produce them, that it might thus be demonstrated that neither beauty, nor yet size and strength, are of much moment to the wise man, whose blessedness lies in spiritual and immortal blessings, in far better and more enduring gifts, in the good things that are the peculiar property of the good, and are not shared by good and bad alike. It is this which another prophet confirms when he says, These were the giants, famous from the beginning, that were of so great stature, and so expert in war. Those did not the Lord choose, neither gave He the way of knowledge unto them; but they were destroyed because they had no wisdom, and perished through their own foolishness."




    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Enoch, Church Fathers and the Giants of Genesis
    « Reply #11 on: August 17, 2022, 10:41:06 PM »
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  • Some interesting stuff here:
    https://allthatsinteresting.com/anunnaki

    So the Sumerians had this "son of God" whom they revered as a God known as "Enki" (Enoch?).  I think in the Book of Enoch, there's mention of Enoch being a go-between where he would visit the realms of these angels and then come back.

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Enoch, Church Fathers and the Giants of Genesis
    « Reply #12 on: August 17, 2022, 10:50:15 PM »
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  • St. Augustine writes in Book 15, Ch. 23 of the City of God:

    "From these assertions, indeed, I dare not determine whether there be some spirits embodied in an aerial substance (for this element, even when agitated by a fan, is sensibly felt by the body), and who are capable of lust and of mingling sensibly with women; but certainly I could by no means believe that God's holy angels could at that time have so fallen ..."

    And on the valid elements of Sacred Tradition in the Book of Enoch, he admits:
    ...

    So the bolded above lines up almost exactly with the theory that I articulate about these Nephilim, that they had these bodies of an "aerial substance" (rather than being made from clay of earth).  He cites examples where angels appeared to men in bodies that could be not only seen but touched.

    He too seems troubled by how these "angels" could have fallen as described.

    As for Enoch, I'm not sure that I agree with him.  Simply because the Church ultimately determined that the book was not INSPIRED, this does not mean it's not genuine.  There is an in-between state between being inspired (written by the Holy Spirit) and being fake/fabricated.  There's almost an underlying assumption that if its authorship by Enoch could have been proven that it would ipso facto have been considered Scripture.  But so none of the OT patriarchs ever wrote anything that was not inspired?  I find that very difficult to believe.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Enoch, Church Fathers and the Giants of Genesis
    « Reply #13 on: August 17, 2022, 11:13:39 PM »
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  • Quote
    Somehow they had the ability to "change their nature" (Pope St. Clement) and assume a corporeal aspect to their nature, perhaps assume these part-spiritual and part-physical bodies (similar perhaps to what we expect of our risen bodies).
    We have examples in Scripture where good angels took human form.  a) the Angel and Tobias, b) the 2 angels who came to see Lot in Sodom/Gomorrah, c) the Angel Gabriel to Our Lady, d) the 2 Angels at the Tomb of Christ on Easter, etc etc. 


    I think God allowed many different things in the pre-Flood days than post-Flood.  We know he gave men super-long lifetimes of 100s of years, and (presumably) more strength and intelligence.  (Probably why God gave them agriculture and manual labor tasks - because they needed the preoccupation of work to stay busy.)  We also know that pre-Flood men didn't drink (alcohol wasn't invented) nor did they eat animal flesh.  So why couldn't angels act differently as well?

    Post flood, men's lives were greatly shortened, they ate animal flesh and drank alcohol because of their loss of strength.  And angels?  They were, according to Enoch (and repeated by St Peter and St Jude in Scripture) chained "in darkness", as a punishment for their sins, until the judgement.  Scripture does not say they were chained IN HELL, but "in darkness" (meaning... they are chained somewhere on earth?)  That's how I take it.

    1.  It explains why all the elites go down to Antarctica - to see their demon gods.  A protestant writer analyzed where Enoch described the "mountains underground" where the demons were chained.  Enoch described the geography where he was taken to see this underground prison.  He described the land having 3 mountains all in a row, with some other earth features.  This protestant found only 1 place on earth where such a description matches...Antarctica.  If true, does this explain a lot!

    2.  Demons being chained underground also explains the Apocalypse and CERN.  Because in Apoc ch9, with the 5th trumpet, it describes the "bottomless pit" being opened, the king of which is named, in greek, Apollyon.  Now in greek, Apollyon means "destruction".  And outside of the CERN scientific headquarters is a huge statue of the hindu god, Shiva, who is the god of...destruction.  (Coincidence, i'm sure).

    CERN is also located in a place in Roman times called "Appolliacuм" (there's that destruction word again and another coincidence) and it was known to be a "gateway to the underworld".  CERN is said to be using its particle machine, among many other things, to create black holes in order to enter other dimensions.  Black holes are called by scientists as "bottomless pits" of gravity. (another coincidence?)

    https://www.rt.com/op-ed/313922-cern-collider-hadron-higgs/
    https://blogs.timesofisrael.com/cern-looking-for-god-particle-or-opening-portals-of-hell/

    Offline St Giles

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    Re: Enoch, Church Fathers and the Giants of Genesis
    « Reply #14 on: August 17, 2022, 11:17:47 PM »
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  • What do the mystics have to say about this stuff? I remember Anne Catherine Emmerich suggesting Malachi and Melchizedek were angels. I think she only described one fall of the angels in general in the beginning.
    "Be you therefore perfect, as also your heavenly Father is perfect."
    "Seek first the kingdom of Heaven..."
    "Every idle word that men shall speak, they shall render an account for it in the day of judgment"