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Author Topic: Enoch, Church Fathers and the Giants of Genesis  (Read 19401 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Enoch, Church Fathers and the Giants of Genesis
« Reply #70 on: August 19, 2022, 04:37:21 PM »
I don't see how Anne Catherine Emmerich is contradicting Enoch's story, whom she praises as a holy man.  It's unclear what she means when she says "when the angels fell".  Is she talking about satan's revolt against God vs St Michael?  I don't see how because she says they won't be cast into hell before the last day.  But satan and his angels are already in hell.  So she must be talking about fallen angels in the same way that Enoch was, which means, angels fell a 2nd time.  She uses the term (assuming the translation is accurate) of "fallen spirits".  But satan and co are not fallen spirits but demons who are in hell.  So, it appears that the "sons of god" does mean actual angels.

I think we have to be a bit careful with Anne Catherine Emmerich.  Most of what she saw / said was interpreted through the lens of Brentano and could have been embellished.  I think it's a reason the Church hasn't canonized her despite her virtue, wary that it might be an implicit endorsement of the works attributed to her.  While most of it might be accurate, there could also have been interpretations and various embellishments made by Brentano.

This part, for instance, seems very wrong to me, if we're speaking about the typical angels who are pure spirit:
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I have frequently seen that, when the angels fell, a certain number had a moment of repentance and did not in consequence fall as low as the others.

I could see that perhaps the degree to which they rejected God may have been less, but that they could somehow repent or change their minds isn't consistent with what could happen to those first angels, who had to decide one way or the other at the instant of their creation, and they were  not capable of any kind of repentance once they had made their decision.

Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Enoch, Church Fathers and the Giants of Genesis
« Reply #71 on: August 19, 2022, 04:49:01 PM »
I am aware of that, but what I am saying is that it is contrary to what the Church teaches on angelic natures. So, to say that these were, in fact, traditional angels in the sense of heavenly intelligences, doesn't add up.

But what does "the Church teach.." about angelic natures.  I don't recall much in the Magisterium about it, as it seems to be largely the province of theologians.


Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Enoch, Church Fathers and the Giants of Genesis
« Reply #72 on: August 19, 2022, 04:59:03 PM »
St. Thomas says that it is not in the nature of pure spirits to do things like procreate.  But my hypothesis is that there were lower choirs of angels that were not pure spirit, but had a lower/sensible nature that could then interact with matter.

One of the key pieces of Sacred Scripture is that these "sons of God ... seeing that [the daughters of men] were fair" ...

This strongly implies that there was some kind of physical attraction they had toward these women ... which would not be consistent with a pure spirit either.  Pure spirits, even if fallen, do not have such sensibilities, which come from the lower nature.

If they had possessed men to mate with women simply to corrupt men, I'm not sure who "seeing that they were fair" factored into it.

Also, the other curious pieces is that there was something unusual about their offspring, so there seems to have been something different or unique about their genetics ... unless with their angelic knowledge they somehow could know which combinations genes would bring out the various traits such as what they had intended.  So, for instance, they figured out that if this guy (whom they then possessed) would mate with this woman here, the result would be gigantic offspring with remarkable traits.  But then that would still leave me wondering what their fairness had to do with it.

Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Enoch, Church Fathers and the Giants of Genesis
« Reply #73 on: August 19, 2022, 05:05:33 PM »
Much of the argumentation seems to come (at least later, by the time of the scholastics) from this notion that angels are pure spirit.  Where is that taught or to be found in Sacred Scripture?  Whence does that notion originate?  I haven't seen any authority for that supposition, whether from Scripture or from Tradition.  And yet it seems to be simply assumed, and then they draw conclusions from that presupposition.  But what if it's not the whole story.  Certainly it's clear that there are some higher choirs of angels that are indeed pure spirit.  But why the different choirs and the hierarchy.  To what extent are the lower choirs "inferior" to the higher ones?  What is there that rules out the existence of a lowest choir where those creatures of God had spirit plus a sensible nature along with the ability to take on bodies (although not of earth like man but of a more aetherial substance).

In any case, we tend to lump all these creatures into the category of "angel", but there were differences and degrees of sublimity in the hierarchy from God down?  It could be circular reasoning, where you define "angel" as a being of pure spirit, and then any that are called angels are supposed to be in this same category.  In point of fact, I believe St. Thomas and others held that you can't really classify angels that way, in that every angel is his own special category and has a unique nature.

It would be interesting to dig up anything that the Fathers had to say about angels in general.

In any case, the very etymology of angel simply means "messenger" and by itself the term does  not define them to be pure spirits, just as these transitional creatures between God, the invisible creation, and visible creation.

Re: Enoch, Church Fathers and the Giants of Genesis
« Reply #74 on: August 19, 2022, 05:28:07 PM »
Careful Lad, make sure you reach out to St. Thomas before you criticize his work :trollface:

Much of the argumentation seems to come (at least later, by the time of the scholastics) from this notion that angels are pure spirit.  Where is that taught or to be found in Sacred Scripture?  Whence does that notion originate?  I haven't seen any authority for that supposition, whether from Scripture or from Tradition.  And yet it seems to be simply assumed, and then they draw conclusions from that presupposition.  But what if it's not the whole story.  Certainly it's clear that there are some higher choirs of angels that are indeed pure spirit.  But why the different choirs and the hierarchy.  To what extent are the lower choirs "inferior" to the higher ones?  What is there that rules out the existence of a lowest choir where those creatures of God had spirit plus a sensible nature along with the ability to take on bodies (although not of earth like man but of a more aetherial substance).

In any case, we tend to lump all these creatures into the category of "angel", but there were differences and degrees of sublimity in the hierarchy from God down?  It could be circular reasoning, where you define "angel" as a being of pure spirit, and then any that are called angels are supposed to be in this same category.  In point of fact, I believe St. Thomas and others held that you can't really classify angels that way, in that every angel is his own special category and has a unique nature.

It would be interesting to dig up anything that the Fathers had to say about angels in general.

In any case, the very etymology of angel simply means "messenger" and by itself the term does  not define them to be pure spirits, just as these transitional creatures between God, the invisible creation, and visible creation.

Well, let's look at where St. Thomas gets the notion of angels being pure spirit:
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On the contrary, It is said (Ps 103:4): Who makes His angels spirits.

I answer that, There must be some incorporeal creatures. For what is principally intended by God in creatures is good, and this consists in assimilation to God Himself. And the perfect assimilation of an effect to a cause is accomplished when the effect imitates the cause according to that whereby the cause produces the effect; as heat makes heat. Now, God produces the creature by His intellect and will (Q. 14, A. 8; Q. 19, A. 4). Hence the perfection of the universe requires that there should be intellectual creatures. Now intelligence cannot be the action of a body, nor of any corporeal faculty; for every body is limited to here and now. Hence the perfection of the universe requires the existence of an incorporeal creature.

The ancients, however, not properly realizing the force of intelligence, and failing to make a proper distinction between sense and intellect, thought that nothing existed in the world but what could be apprehended by sense and imagination. And because bodies alone fall under imagination, they supposed that no being existed except bodies, as the Philosopher observes (Phys. iv, 52,57). Thence came the error of the Sadducees, who said there was no spirit (Acts 23:8).

But the very fact that intellect is above sense is a reasonable proof that there are some incorporeal things comprehensible by the intellect alone.
https://aquinas.cc/la/en/~ST.I.Q50.A1.SC

I know the form of hierarchies that St. Thomas and others accepted comes from St. Dionysius the Areopagite's work "The Heavenly Hierarchy" (note: I think the pseudo-Dionysius authorship claims are BS and I stand with Rev. Parker and Tradition that they were from St. Dionysius). And that Pope St. Gregory and St. Bernard had their own variations on them. I would have to do a little digging to get to the root as to why they accepted them, outside of appeals to their Traditional authorship with St. Dionysius.

Here's St. Thomas's reasoning on the Hierarchies. I'll just link to the section, rather than quote it: https://aquinas.cc/la/en/~ST.I.Q108

Here's the relevant section on why these angels are categorized as such, despite the unique nature of each individually:
Quote
On the contrary is the authority of Holy Scripture wherein they are so named. For the name Seraphim is found in Isa. 6:2; the name Cherubim in Ezech. 1 (Cf. 10:15,20); Thrones in Col. 1:16; Dominations, Virtues, Powers, and Principalities are mentioned in Eph. 1:21; the name Archangels in the canonical epistle of St. Jude (9), and the name Angels is found in many places of Scripture.

I answer that, As Dionysius says (Coel. Hier. vii), in the names of the angelic orders it is necessary to observe that the proper name of each order expresses its property. Now to see what is the property of each order, we must consider that in coordinated things, something may be found in a threefold manner: by way of property, by way of excess, and by way of participation. A thing is said to be in another by way of property, if it is adequate and proportionate to its nature: by excess when an attribute is less than that to which it is attributed, but is possessed thereby in an eminent manner, as we have stated (Q. 13, A. 2) concerning all the names which are attributed to God: by participation, when an attribute is possessed by something not fully but partially; thus holy men are called gods by participation. Therefore, if anything is to be called by a name designating its property, it ought not to be named from what it participates imperfectly, nor from that which it possesses in excess, but from that which is adequate thereto; as, for instance, when we wish properly to name a man, we should call him a rational substance, but not an intellectual substance, which latter is the proper name of an angel; because simple intelligence belongs to an angel as a property, and to man by participation; nor do we call him a sensible substance, which is the proper name of a brute; because sense is less than the property of a man, and belongs to man in a more excellent way than to other animals.

So we must consider that in the angelic orders all spiritual perfections are common to all the angels, and that they are all more excellently in the superior than in the inferior angels. Further, as in these perfections there are grades, the superior perfection belongs to the superior order as its property, whereas it belongs to the inferior by participation; and conversely the inferior perfection belongs to the inferior order as its property, and to the superior by way of excess; and thus the superior order is denominated from the superior perfection.

So in this way Dionysius (Coel. Hier. vii) explains the names of the orders accordingly as they befit the spiritual perfections they signify. Gregory, on the other hand, in expounding these names (Hom. xxxiv in Evang.) seems to regard more the exterior ministrations; for he says that angels are so called as announcing the least things; and the archangels in the greatest; by the virtues miracles are wrought; by the powers hostile powers are repulsed; and the principalities preside over the good spirits themselves.

https://aquinas.cc/la/en/~ST.I.Q108.A5.SC
And then he goes on to explain why these angels are assigned to each order.

Again, as I noted earlier in the thread, it's possible that these "sons of God' were some other unknown creatures that are referred to as angels by the correlation of this term "sons of God" with Job's definition. Yet, we also see individuals who are not pure spirits referred to as "angels" all over Scripture.