…call or e-mail Sungenis and communicate directly with him on this matter and then get back to us.…

This is not how we seek the truth.  We seek it by approaching it with an open and objective mind. 

Why is it a problem that he critiques his book? Do you call up every author you disagree with to discuss the faults of their books?

Re: Archie, T. Sicut Judaeis: Pope Callistus II’s Jєωιѕн Bill of Rights, The Reign of Mary (53)184: Spring 2022. 20-21.

Esteemed Rev. Editor:

The author states his purpose is to underscore the just protections constantly afforded Jєωs by Holy Mother Church. That premise is completely non-controversial for well-catechized Catholics and so we have no objections on that count. The author’s recitation of anti-historical shibboleths, however, is seriously objectionable.

Having diligently searched for the complete and original Sicut Judaeis non, the earliest such we have found is from Pope Alexander III, September 14, 1199 A.D. in The Popes and the Jєωs in the Middle Ages by Edward Synan, (NY, NY: Macmillan Company) 1965, Paperback Edition 1967. Appendix VI, pp. 229-232. If the author has the complete 1120 A.D. content from Pope Callistus II, we would appreciate a copy of that content to replace the 1199 A.D. Latin and English translation we archived here: http://judaism.is/the-church-on-the-Jєωs.html#sicutjudaeisnon

The author claims “widespread persecutions, even expulsions” that were “quite lucrative.” He echoes Anti-Defamation League (ADL) laments about professions closed to Jєωs so that “to make a living” some Jєωs practiced “money lending.” Why such a bland description for the practice of usury damned repeatedly by God and His Church? http://judaism.is/usury.html The author carefully side-steps any discussion of either the sinfulness or criminality of usury, but laments that the victims of the usurers sometimes reacted against the criminals.

The author also repeats ADL claims that Jєωιѕн ritual murder is a “Blood Libel.” In 2007, following years mining the Vatican Archives, Dr. Ariel Toaff, Bar-Ilan University Historian and son of a former Chief Rabbi of Rome, published his first edition of Pasque di Sangue: Ebrei d’Europa e omicidi rituali (Bloody Passover: European Jєωs and Ritual Homicide). Toaff published his meticulous docuмentation of original sources concluding that there is indeed an αѕнкenαzι cult of ritual murderers. As you would expect, docuмentation of hundreds of ritual murders of Christian children by Jєωs, especially docuмentation contributed by the son of the former Chief Rabbi of Rome, caused an enormous furor. Initially Dr. Toaff courageously stood tall promising to stand by his findings from medieval archives, but he suffered death threats and threats of prosecution by the Israeli Knesset. Within a week, publication of his first edition was stopped and the books were recalled from bookstores. Dr. Toaff promised—and provided—a heavily revised second edition, bleated that he had been misunderstood, and promised all the profits of his revised edition to the Anti-Defamation League that dictated the revisions.

Fortunately, enough copies of the first edition survived to be distributed in the original Italian http://www.vho.org/aaargh/fran/livres7/pasque.pdf and in translations http://www.bloodpassover.com/ that are readily available online. Of course, the revised second edition is readily available to anyone who would want it. The risible premise in the second edition is that Christian children died at the hands of Jєωs, but that the children were voluntary donors of blood and things just accidentally went wrong time and time again. The second edition is meticulously deconstructed with exact quotes here:

“Prof. Toaff has since partially recanted, and now maintains that:
• yes, Jєωs are a corrupting and disruptive element in society;
• yes, Jєωs lend money at 40% and seem to do little else;
• yes, Jєωs buy and sell justice with huge bribes;
• yes, Jєωs pull off all sorts of fraudulent bankruptcies and swindles;
• yes, Jєωs resort to poisoning and assassination when thwarted;
• yes, Jєωs are obsessed with hatred for Christians and the Christian religion;
• yes, Jєωs kidnapped and castrated Christian boys on a large scale and sold them into slavery in Islamic Spain for centuries;
• yes, Jєωs used [and still use?] human blood in all sorts of quack remedies, despite the Biblical prohibition, even for minor complaints;
• yes, Jєωs used [and still use?] Christian human blood in their matzoh balls at Passover;
• yes, Jєωs used [and still use?] Christian human blood in their wine at Passover;
• yes, the blood had to be from Christian boys no more than 7 years of age;
• yes, the blood had [has?] to be certified kosher by a rabbi;
• yes, there was [is?] a large and profitable trade in fake blood products and animal blood, which were [are?] unsuitable to the purpose;
• yes, Christians tried to sell the blood of Christian boys to Jєωs, but were rejected because the Jєωs feared it was animal blood; but no, no Christian boys were ever killed to obtain the blood. Never, never! Or hardly ever. It all came from ‘voluntary donors’!”
http://www.cwporter.com/toaffdonor.htm

The ritual murder of Christians by Jєωs is a well-docuмented fact, not at all a “libel.” We have aggregated a partial list of such ritual murders from 1160 A.D. through 1955 A.D.: http://judaism.is/ritual-murder.html Not only did Toaff docuмent ritual murder, he docuмented that medieval Jєωry was as averse to honest labor as Jєωry today. Toaff docuмented that Jєωs engaged extensively in prostitution, violent extortion, and murder-for-hire, especially as physician poisoners.

There are consequences to Jєωιѕн behaviors: Jєωιѕн supremacism, instigating gentile-against-gentile wars, fomenting revolutions, suborning heresies, undermining Christian society, fαℓѕє fℓαgs, big lies, inflicting multiculturalism, and perpetrating vice, ritual murder, genocide, slavery and economic crimes against humanity, including usury, fractional reserve banking, swindling, and tax farming. The perpetual pose of Jєωs as innocent victims is a fraud. Are there innocents among the Jєωs?  Initially, yes! But those innocents, in shielding the guilty, have made themselves accomplices of the guilty, over the millennia earning the expulsion of Jєωs from over a thousand nations, principalities, and city-states. 1,043 of those “lucrative” expulsions of those Jєωs are docuмented here: https://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=12596

Full of solicitude for the “constant fear and insecurity in which the Jєωs had to live,” Mr. Archie offers no solicitude for the Catholics who “had” to suffer deceit, looting, slavery, perversion, and death at the hands of those Jєωs. He seems as clueless as Israeli President Herzog who claimed the existence of antisemitism in the world today is “inexplicable.”  https://www.jpost.com/diaspora/article-701842 We pray for a return to the vigorous restraints placed by Christendom upon Jєωs. However imperfect those restrictions and their enforcement, the Jєωs’ Kabbalistic plans for us were better kept at bay than by the gutless submission and inappropriate solicitude of Catholics today. http://judaism.is/kabbalah.html

Little St. Hugh of Lincoln, pray for us.
St. Simon of Trent, pray for us.
St. William of Norwich, pray for us.
All the Holy Martyrs, pray for us.

In the Sacred and Immaculate Hearts,

[name redacted]

I agree that this is an untenable position and that his arguments that you have quoted are extremely weak.  (For those who don't know, I believe the earth is a sphere.)

I would, however, find it easier to see you as a champion of intellectual honesty, if you had made similar critiques of those who claim that there is a consensus or near consensus among the Fathers that the Earth is flat.  The flat earth trads site is an example.

Perhaps I missed you dissecting their misuse of quotes  and their unwarranted conclusions, as you have done in this thread.  Please excuse me if that is the case.  Otherwise, please make more of an effort to apply the same standards to both sides of the issue.

I personally would have like to see them cite those Church Fathers who did hold the earth to be a sphere.  Let's be objective and look at all the evidence.  I don't care for it when either side of any issue simply ignores any evidence from the other side.  It's OK to reject it for various well-argued reasons, but don't just ignore it and pretend it doesn't exist.

Damn it. Look in the mirror!  Lad, I have long respected your contributions, but, of late, I do believe that pride is feeding the worst on you, not the best in you. I mean this as a friend. A distant friend, but nonetheless a friend.

I'm beginning to question whether even the Greeks who believed that the earth was a sphere believed that there were people upside down stuck to the bottom of this sphere.  I don't know that there was any scientific notion among them of what would permit that to happen.  It's easy to superimpose our notions (after Newton came up with gravity) on the ancients, and think that if we see the word sphere (or, in the case of Dr. Sungenis, even "circle") that their notion lines up with our modern idea of the globe with people all around it.

If you can view docuмents on JSTOR, this might be of interest to you. It appears many of them did believe that, in fact.

The term is taken up by Aristotle (De caelo 308a.20), Strabo (Geographica 1.1.13), Plutarch (On the Malice of Herodotus 37) and Diogenes Laërtius (Lives and Opinions of Eminent Philosophers book 3), and was adopted into Latin as antipodes. The Latin word changed its sense from the original "under the feet, opposite side" to "those with the feet opposite", i.e. a bahuvrihi referring to hypothetical people living on the opposite side of the Earth. Medieval illustrations imagine them in some way "inverted", with their feet growing out of their heads, pointing upward.

In ancient times, philosophers conceived a suite of remarkable ideas about the southern hemisphere of the earth. First, they figured that there was a southern hemisphere. Second, they figured it was potentially habitable. And, third, they figured that there may well be a great land there. The question is, who conceived what, when, and why? Modern scholarship provides answers to these questions — explaining, for example, that the Antipodes were posited based on symmetry, or perhaps because the northern hemisphere needed a counterbalance. These and many other answers to these questions are wrong, as demonstrated in this article.

This seems to be personal on your part.  …

There's nothing "prideful" about calling out poor logic and faulty reasoning ...

It is CLEARLY there.  I can probably cite pages to demonstrate that point, that he clearly set out from the beginning to disprove FE.

Even JayneK, who believes the earth is …