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Author Topic: Dr. Sungenis: Flat Earth Flat Wrong  (Read 32889 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Dr. Sungenis: Flat Earth Flat Wrong
« Reply #30 on: August 14, 2022, 01:02:03 PM »
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  • Damn it. Even if he has confirmation bias it can be (and, based on the pattern of his work, almost certainly is) a mistake.

    Are you capable of reading?  I said it's likely that this is not deliberate (i.e. is a "mistake") but he makes it very clear from the outset that his intent is to discredit FE and not to objectively study the matter.  He uses the expression that dismissing NASA as evidence "unfortunately" makes it more difficult to refute FE.

    Thus his stated intention is in fact to refute FE even before having studied the evidence.  That's a prior conclusion causing confirmation bias.

    "Confirmation bias," however, is not a "mistake" ... but rather it's a SOURCE of making mistakes.  He goes in with a certain attitude and then reads into the various sources what he wants to see there in support of his thesis.  So his attitude of wanting to discredit FE instead of giving it an objective look actually causes the mistakes.  Ironically, that is exactly what he accuses FEs of doing.

    So, right back at you:  "Damn it, man, learn how to read English."  This is not, as I have already clearly explained, an attack on his integrity nor an assertion that it's being done deliberately, but it is what it is.  He has a clear and obvious (pretty much admitted) bias going in that leads to him misinterpreting evidence.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Dr. Sungenis: Flat Earth Flat Wrong
    « Reply #31 on: August 14, 2022, 01:10:31 PM »
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  • Damn it. Even if he has confirmation bias it can be (and, based on the pattern of his work, almost certainly is) a mistake.

    Has Typhoid Meg infected the entire forum with her damned readings of the interior forum of others?

    Either you missed it or didn't comprehend.  Here's my earlier comment:
    Quote
    And I think we need to understand what is meant by intellectual dishonesty.  This does not necessarily mean that Dr. Sungenis is deliberately and consciously setting out to be dishonest, to lie, to distort, etc.  I do believe that he is of good character and would not consciously do anything of the sort.

    What is meant by intellectual dishonesty is that he's made up his mind beforehand that FE is false and he's setting to to prove that it's false, to find evidence that it is false.  That in turn leads to confirmation bias where he falsely reads things into various pieces of evidence that do not on their own support his thesis.  If there's anything that MIGHT be interpreted as backing up his thesis, then in his mind, it's evidence or proof.  He's not letting the evidence speak for itself but is reading into it.

    This is not any reading of the internal forum.  In fact, I explicitly state that I believe he is not doing this consciously and deliberately.

    I am so sick of people not understanding basic distinctions.  Every Catholic really should be required to take some good courses in scholastic logic, since lack of logic and the ability to make proper distinctions has been the root of so much error.

    And if I am reading the internal forum by making these comments, then so is "Bob".  He made the exact same statement about both NASA and Flat Earthers (in the same sentence) ... in fact, his comment was much stronger, claiming that FEs "distort" evidence.  In fact, if you do a word search on his PDF, you'll find the word "distort" 115 times.  Skimming through the search results, I find that about half the time he's using it innocuously, such as in the expression "atmospheric distortion", but the other have he's accusing FEs of "distorting" evidence (even though it's often painfully obvious that HE is the one doing the distorting ... as I have called out earlier regarding his misnterpretation of the Church Fathers).

    At one point, he approvingly quotes a Globe zealot as follows:
    Quote
    The very act of entering into a discussion with them is to extend to them a level of respect that they do not deserve. They lie, they manipulate, they distort information, they invent pseudoscientific ideas. Everything that comes from the flat Earth community should be dismissed as white noise.

    I had hoped for a respectful treatment of the debate from Bob, but that's clearly not what we have here in this book, and so the gloves are coming off where Bob is going to get a taste of his own medicine ... and see how he likes it.

    Bob has been bouncing from one blunder into another for several hundred pages, to the point that it discredits him overall in my eyes ... one logical error after another that's easily exposed.  Has he been properly trained in scholastic logic?


    Offline Tradman

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    Re: Dr. Sungenis: Flat Earth Flat Wrong
    « Reply #32 on: August 14, 2022, 01:17:20 PM »
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  • I'm afraid that I simply don't understand the lack of logic, except that you tend to see that when someone is not being intellectually honest.

    Argument is very simple, and it's not the strawman argument he presents (that FE hold ALL NASA images to be fraudulent), but if any are fraudulent, then none of them can be trusted ... even if they have happened to craft some that aren't obviously fake (i.e. that they're realistic).

    Once the credibility of NASA is gone, he'd have to prove that any given image is real, and there simply is no way to do that.  Demonstrating that any particular image is believable, credible, realistic does not suffice, as NASA clearly has the funds and the technology to create such images.

    And, yes, you occasionally see some absurd arguments from FE.  But this debate isn't about any given person's views, but about the objective question of whether the surface of the earth is flat.  And some of the more absurd arguments come from places like the Flat Earth Society, which certainly appears to have been turned into a disinfo operation.

    So, for instance, you occasionally see people making absurd claims about 9/11, but this does not prove that 9/11 was pulled off by a bunch of Arabs with box-cutters.  So that would be like me arguing from a few absurd theories made either by nutjobs or else government disinfo agents deliberately attempting to discredit any doubts about the official story.

    At one point, Sungenis spends 2-3 pages on the views of Mark Sergeant, that I'll get back to later
    I doubt that you set out to write, "Sungenis: Flat Wrong", but the author assured himself nothing less when he shot this quiver of headless arrows against the flat earth. You probably thought there'd be some problems here and there, but this? The exasperation in each of your responses is loud and clear. Every page, every argument in Sungenis' book is a serious head scratcher. His poorly thought out responses to flat earth sound like a 5th grade challenge against a college graduate opponent, but the ultimate shocker is that Sungenis thought he won that debate when he published this book.   

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Dr. Sungenis: Flat Earth Flat Wrong
    « Reply #33 on: August 14, 2022, 01:37:04 PM »
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  • I doubt that you set out to write, "Sungenis: Flat Wrong", but the author assured himself nothing less when he shot this quiver of headless arrows against the flat earth. You probably thought there'd be some problems here and there, but this? The exasperation in each of your responses is loud and clear. Every page, every argument in Sungenis' book is a serious head scratcher. His poorly thought out responses to flat earth sound like a 5th grade challenge against a college graduate opponent, but the ultimate shocker is that Sungenis thought he won that debate when he published this book. 

    Indeed.  I went into this with a great deal of prior respect for Dr. Sungenis (you can read that in the posts I made prior to actually getting this book and starting to read it), but that's been seriously tarnished from what I'm reading here.  Based on an interview he gave, I was assuming that there would be a respectful debate in the interests of seeking truth.  That is clearly not what we have here in this book, and I must say that I'm incredibly disappointed.

    Your reading of my attitude is spot on.  I figured there would be some hole here or a hole there.  Heck, I was even open to being convinced that I was wrong.  But after a couple pages of what amounts to sheer nonsense, I am in fact exasperated with this ... perhaps partly because I had expected better before diving in.

    I am still open to being proven wrong about FE, but this here doesn't do it.  I'm still holding out for something convincing or substantial, wherein the book might redeem itself ... but I am no longer holding my breath.

    I did read that this book was commissioned by the Kolbe Institute, and the clear intent of the enterprise out of the gate was to refute or disprove Flat Earth.  That was the intent going in.  I wonder what Kolbe would have thought had Sungenis given the topic a fair shake and concluded that the earth was flat.  I suspect that whatever funding was behind this book would have been summarily withdrawn.  And we do in fact have a fair bit of that going on in "science," where people's livelihoods depend on producing the "right" answer.

    This is not how we seek the truth.  We seek it by approaching it with an open and objective mind.  I did not "set out" in reading Dr. Sungenis' book to "prove [him] wrong" or to "refute [him]".  I actually was hoping to read some good stuff that challenged my beliefs, and even being open to being persuaded that I have been wrong.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Dr. Sungenis: Flat Earth Flat Wrong
    « Reply #34 on: August 14, 2022, 01:44:18 PM »
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  • I would have hoped that Dr. Sungenis learned from the treatment to which he's been subjected by the scientific establishment and "orthodoxy" regarding his geoecentrist views:  mockery, derision, being labeled a kook and a nutjob, a liar, a distorter, etc. -- and so not subject flat earthers to the exact same treatment that he himself has received.  No, instead, he JOINS this same scientific establishment that has derided and mocked him in their chorus of derision and ridicule directed at flat earthers.  Here he has allied with the same people that he's been at war all these years about geocentrism.

    So here we have FEs, who by and large also support geocentrism, and should be his allies against the largely-Satanic Luciferian Masonic establishment, many / most of whom share his respect for Sacred Scripture ... being thrown overboard to the same wolves that have been attacking him.  If I didn't know any better, I'd almost think that he was throwing us under the bus to the wolves in order to regain some "respect" with the scientific establishment ... like when a herd of animals will leave behind the slow or infirm animals to be ravaged by the wolves, so that they can save their own skin.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Dr. Sungenis: Flat Earth Flat Wrong
    « Reply #35 on: August 14, 2022, 01:49:24 PM »
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  • At the end of the day, does Dr. Sungenis really believe that this type of an attitude will actually be effective or persuasive?  If he were sincerely seeking the truth and treating people with respect, he'd have a much better chance of persuading people about any solid arguments he may have.  But his attitude simply makes them put up their guard and distrust anything he has to say.  So, who is his audience here?  Is he preaching to the choir?  Or is he trying to persuade FEs?  If the latter, he's adopted very poor tactics.  Or was he in fact using this to try re-establishing his credibility with the scientific establishment?  Or was it simply about making some money to support his family?

    Offline Tradman

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    Re: Dr. Sungenis: Flat Earth Flat Wrong
    « Reply #36 on: August 14, 2022, 02:13:22 PM »
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  • Indeed.  I went into this with a great deal of prior respect for Dr. Sungenis (you can read that in the posts I made prior to actually getting this book and starting to read it), but that's been seriously tarnished from what I'm reading here.  Based on an interview he gave, I was assuming that there would be a respectful debate in the interests of seeking truth.  That is clearly not what we have here in this book, and I must say that I'm incredibly disappointed.

    Your reading of my attitude is spot on.  I figured there would be some hole here or a hole there.  Heck, I was even open to being convinced that I was wrong.  But after a couple pages of what amounts to sheer nonsense, I am in fact exasperated with this ... perhaps partly because I had expected better before diving in.

    I am still open to being proven wrong about FE, but this here doesn't do it.  I'm still holding out for something convincing or substantial, wherein the book might redeem itself ... but I am no longer holding my breath.

    I did read that this book was commissioned by the Kolbe Institute, and the clear intent of the enterprise out of the gate was to refute or disprove Flat Earth.  That was the intent going in.  I wonder what Kolbe would have thought had Sungenis given the topic a fair shake and concluded that the earth was flat.  I suspect that whatever funding was behind this book would have been summarily withdrawn.  And we do in fact have a fair bit of that going on in "science," where people's livelihoods depend on producing the "right" answer.

    This is not how we seek the truth.  We seek it by approaching it with an open and objective mind.  I did not "set out" in reading Dr. Sungenis' book to "prove [him] wrong" or to "refute [him]".  I actually was hoping to read some good stuff that challenged my beliefs, and even being open to being persuaded that I have been wrong.
    Well, you'd naturally expect something rich from a book written by a notable Catholic on a subject so epic in scope and full of controversy.  Instead you get a lot of words, but no content.   

    In Texas they call it big hat, no cattle.

    Offline Charity

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    Re: Dr. Sungenis: Flat Earth Flat Wrong
    « Reply #37 on: August 14, 2022, 02:44:18 PM »
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  • What is meant by intellectual dishonesty is that he's made up his mind beforehand that FE is false and he's setting to to prove that it's false, to find evidence that it is false.

    You appear to be clearly inferring here that Sungenis went into his study of the FE question beforehand with a closed mind.  I would submit that you can infer this till the cows come home, but if you believe you know what you are inferring to be a fact go ahead and prove it beyond any reasonable doubt.  Perhaps, you think you already have, but you have not.  You, yourself appear to so strongly disagree with him that you have made an assumption that he MUST have had a closed mind going into this.  Are you some sort of mind reader that you can state as a fact that Dr. Sungenis had a closed mind going into this?!

    Sungenis by his own admission stated that he firmly believed in heliocentrism at one time.  So did Dr. Robert J. Bennett, the co-author of Galileo was Wrong -- The Church was Right.  Nevertheless, he saw something one day that caused him to question his belief and he started studying the issue and ended up rightfully believing in geocentrism.  He was being intellectually honest and his intellectual honesty -- to put it mildly -- cost him a lot.

    This FE thread is like a big re-enforcing (confirmation bias?) echo chamber.  Instead of going on a seemingly non-stop rant about Sungenis' book without him here to defend his views why not exercise some fortitude and intellectual honesty by doing what Mark 79 suggested you do -- call or e-mail Sungenis and communicate directly with him on this matter and then get back to us.  If you are not willing to do that could you please be so kind as to tell us why not.  In the past Sungenis has made public by placing them online certain email exchanges he has had with individuals who have vehemently disagreed with him.  Perhaps, you could ask him to do that for you as well.


    Offline Tradman

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    Re: Dr. Sungenis: Flat Earth Flat Wrong
    « Reply #38 on: August 14, 2022, 03:02:44 PM »
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  • I would have hoped that Dr. Sungenis learned from the treatment to which he's been subjected by the scientific establishment and "orthodoxy" regarding his geoecentrist views:  mockery, derision, being labeled a kook and a nutjob, a liar, a distorter, etc. -- and so not subject flat earthers to the exact same treatment that he himself has received.  No, instead, he JOINS this same scientific establishment that has derided and mocked him in their chorus of derision and ridicule directed at flat earthers.  Here he has allied with the same people that he's been at war all these years about geocentrism.

    So here we have FEs, who by and large also support geocentrism, and should be his allies against the largely-Satanic Luciferian Masonic establishment, many / most of whom share his respect for Sacred Scripture ... being thrown overboard to the same wolves that have been attacking him.  If I didn't know any better, I'd almost think that he was throwing us under the bus to the wolves in order to regain some "respect" with the scientific establishment ... like when a herd of animals will leave behind the slow or infirm animals to be ravaged by the wolves, so that they can save their own skin.
    This is a reasonable assessment and it's difficult to escape the fallout from Sungenis' continued push to undermine FE.  

    Offline Cera

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    Re: Dr. Sungenis: Flat Earth Flat Wrong
    « Reply #39 on: August 14, 2022, 03:31:26 PM »
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  • I doubt that you set out to write, "Sungenis: Flat Wrong", but the author assured himself nothing less when he shot this quiver of headless arrows against the flat earth. You probably thought there'd be some problems here and there, but this? The exasperation in each of your responses is loud and clear. Every page, every argument in Sungenis' book is a serious head scratcher. His poorly thought out responses to flat earth sound like a 5th grade challenge against a college graduate opponent, but the ultimate shocker is that Sungenis thought he won that debate when he published this book. 
    Great idea! Lad, if you're going to do all the work to go through an "echo-chamber" book, why not publish your own balanced book?

    As to the motivation of Sungenis, I think he may fit into that category of Trads who are so brainwashed that they're incapable of critical analysis. Therefore they jump to the conclusion that FE Trads must be silenced because we discredit Traditional Catholicism.
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    Offline Tradman

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    Re: Dr. Sungenis: Flat Earth Flat Wrong
    « Reply #40 on: August 14, 2022, 04:10:11 PM »
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  • Great idea! Lad, if you're going to do all the work to go through an "echo-chamber" book, why not publish your own balanced book?

    As to the motivation of Sungenis, I think he may fit into that category of Trads who are so brainwashed that they're incapable of critical analysis. Therefore they jump to the conclusion that FE Trads must be silenced because we discredit Traditional Catholicism.
    Yes.. This is one of the most outrageous conclusions from anti-flat earthers because it is an admission they are embarrassed without discerning whether or not the premise is true.  


    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Dr. Sungenis: Flat Earth Flat Wrong
    « Reply #41 on: August 14, 2022, 04:31:56 PM »
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  • So I bought his PDF book and just started skimming it.  I must say that I'm incredibly disappointed.  I skipped ahead to the Church Fathers, where Sungenis asserts that there's a Patristic consensus that the Earth is a sphere.

    I agree that this is an untenable position and that his arguments that you have quoted are extremely weak.  (For those who don't know, I believe the earth is a sphere.)

    I would, however, find it easier to see you as a champion of intellectual honesty, if you had made similar critiques of those who claim that there is a consensus or near consensus among the Fathers that the Earth is flat.  The flat earth trads site is an example.

    Perhaps I missed you dissecting their misuse of quotes  and their unwarranted conclusions, as you have done in this thread.  Please excuse me if that is the case.  Otherwise, please make more of an effort to apply the same standards to both sides of the issue.




    Offline Mark 79

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    Re: Dr. Sungenis: Flat Earth Flat Wrong
    « Reply #42 on: August 14, 2022, 04:33:23 PM »
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  • And I think we need to understand what is meant by intellectual dishonesty.  This does not necessarily mean that Dr. Sungenis is deliberately and consciously setting out to be dishonest, to lie, to distort, etc.  I do believe that he is of good character and would not consciously do anything of the sort.

    What is meant by intellectual dishonesty is that he's made up his mind beforehand that FE is false and he's setting to to prove that it's false, to find evidence that it is false. …

    Your personal definition of intellectual dishonesty is a neologism, a new and personal definition that is not shared by most others.

    Quote
    "An argument which is misused to advance an agenda or to reinforce one's deeply held beliefs in the face of overwhelming evidence contrary. The terms intellectually dishonest and intellectual dishonesty are often used as rhetorical devices in a debate; the label invariably frames an opponent in a negative light." —entry "intellectual dishonesty,"{ Urban DIctionary


    Hence, the common understanding of "intellectual dishonesty" is necessarily ("invariably") an attack on the opponent, something that I have repeatedly stated Bob does not deserve.

    As I said earlier, I disagree with Bob on certain issues (e.g., N.O., SVism, Fatima), but in no way is he dishonest.

    Here's what I think you misinterpret about Bob.

    When he believes Roma locuta est, that is his first and absolute premise. Because of that, he is obligated to causa finita est.  Of necessity (the necessity of his perceived duty to submit), "from the outset … his intent is to discredit [whatever he believes, not what you believe, opposes dogma]." One or both of you may be wrong, but neither of you is intellectually dishonest according to the common understanding of the insult.

    Do the apparent contradictions in the Bible (e.g., the sequence of Jesus' appearances after His Resurrection) mean Sacred Writ is buncombe??? No, of course not. The apparent contradictions must be reconciled.

    Again I am chiding you for wrongly insulting Bob.  He may be wrong (I don't know who is wrong in this uninteresting-to-me FE tempest in a teapot) about FE, but you are definitely objectively wrong to impugn his character. He is not some subversive dirtbag like Poche or given to shrewish obsession and soul-reading like someone we know.  He is a good Catholic apologist, man, and father. I request again that you respect that.


    Are you capable of reading?  …


    No. I am not capable of reading. I am an effing moron, uneducated, and have bad breath.

    But… Are you capable of reading?

    I was excruciatingly clear that I have not read the FE arguments.  I made the mistake of wondering why this thread was so long-lived and saw the insults against Bob.  

    If you are capable of reading, read this: I don't give a hoot about the FE. I care about a good Catholic man's reputation.

    I think it is a sorry commentary on you that you double-down trying to justify a pride-filled character assassination.

    Bob doesn't deserve that. Besides, who are you?


    You are not the Pope.  You are not even an anti-Pope. You are not a credentialed theologian. You are a layman with some seminary education and post-seminary self-learning. Frankly I am surprised that a man of your background, education, and Catholicism would be such a proud jerk. "Unbecoming" is an under-statement.



    Offline Mark 79

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    Re: Dr. Sungenis: Flat Earth Flat Wrong
    « Reply #43 on: August 14, 2022, 04:36:41 PM »
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  • Bob has been bouncing from one blunder into another for several hundred pages, to the point that it discredits him overall in my eyes ... one logical error after another that's easily exposed.  …

    Have you had the decency to discuss these "easily exposed" "blunders" with him?

    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: Dr. Sungenis: Flat Earth Flat Wrong
    « Reply #44 on: August 14, 2022, 04:43:12 PM »
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  • Have you had the decency to discuss these "easily exposed" "blunders" with him?
    Why is it a problem that he critiques his book? Do you call up every author you disagree with to discuss the faults of their books?
    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]