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Author Topic: Dr. Sungenis: Flat Earth Flat Wrong  (Read 36107 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Dr. Sungenis: Flat Earth Flat Wrong
« on: August 13, 2022, 03:58:15 PM »
So I bought his PDF book and just started skimming it.  I must say that I'm incredibly disappointed.  I skipped ahead to the Church Fathers, where Sungenis asserts that there's a Patristic consensus that the Earth is a sphere.

So his first proof text here is from St. Ambrose:
Quote
They ask us to concede to them that heaven turns on its
axis with a swift motion, while the sphere of the earth remains
motionless, so as to conclude that waters cannot stay above the
heavens, because the axis of heaven as it revolved would cause these to
flow off. They wish, in fact, that we grant them their premise and that
our reply be based on their beliefs.

Italics were from Sungenis.

Who that wishes to be honest does not recognize that St. Ambrose here is describing the position of his adversaries?  It's impossible to tell from this whether he rejects some of it or all of it.  But he describes these as THEIR beliefs.

But then, what's more if you look at what he's actually saying, and not focus on the mere presence of the world "sphere," St. Ambrose is talking about a sphere on which the WATERS rest (and his opponents claim would flow off if the heavens rotated).  So this notion of "sphere" refers to the idea of the FIRMAMENT as being the surface of the sphere, on which the waters flow.  It is not the surface of the earth, the inhabited land, that he describes as a sphere, but he's clearly talking about the firmament dome on top of which the waters above rest.  So, what?, Dr. Sungenis, human beings are marine creatures that live admidst waters that are directly on top of the inhabit sphere of the earth?

How is St. Ambrose's description of a sphere on top of which the waters rest consistent with Sungenis' believe that the firmament is "space"?  It doesn't.

This is a huge strike right out of the gate from just my initial random selection of where to start in his book.

Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Dr. Sungenis: Flat Earth Flat Wrong
« Reply #1 on: August 13, 2022, 04:19:40 PM »
Here's the full passage cited by Dr. Sungenis:
Quote
They ask us to concede to them that heaven turns on its
axis with a swift motion, while the sphere of the earth remains
motionless, so as to conclude that waters cannot stay above the
heavens, because the axis of heaven as it revolved would cause these to
flow off. They wish, in fact, that we grant them their premise and that
our reply be based on their beliefs. In this way they would avoid the
question of the existence of length and breadth in that height and depth,
a fact which no one can comprehend except Him who is filled with the
fullness of the Godhead, as the Apostle says. For who can easily set
himself up to be a judge of God’s work? There exists, therefore,
breadth in the very heights of heaven. …What prevents us, then, from
admitting that water is suspended above the heavens? How can they say
that the earth, although it is certainly heavier than water, stays
suspended and immobile in the middle? Following the same principle,
they can admit the water which is above the heavens does not descend
because of the rotation of that celestial sphere. Just as the earth is
suspended in the void and stays immobile in position, its weight being
balanced on every side, in like manner the water, too, is balanced by
weights either equal to or greater than that of the earth. For the same
reason, the sea does not tend to inundate the land without a special
command to do so.

I'll have to read this in a larger context to understand what's going on.  But his ADVERSARIES are the one trying to get St. Ambrose to accept or concede as a premise the passage cited by Sungenis as indicating St. Ambrose's belief that the earth is a sphere.  It's unclear to me how much of the premise he concedes, and how much he does not.  But it's clear that both sides are speaking of a "sphere" on top of which waters rest.  And the point of argument is the claim by these adversaries that the cosmology of St. Ambrose would result in the waters flowing off the top of the sphere.  Clearly both sides agree that there are actual waters above the "sphere of the earth", and that we're not talking about globe earth here.



Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Dr. Sungenis: Flat Earth Flat Wrong
« Reply #2 on: August 13, 2022, 04:27:36 PM »
Next passage from someone named Archelaus that I've never heard of:

Quote
But just as those Orientals have the light rising on them
earlier than the people who live in the west, so they have it also more
quickly obscured, and they only who are settled in the middle of the
globe see always an equality of light.

So we've just established that not every reference to a "sphere" or here a "globe" refers to a globe earth on which people LIVE, a globe surface of the earth.

We have Dr. Sungenis picking up every single reference to "sphere" or "globe" as if it's proof that the Fathers believed that the surface of the earth is a globe.  This is clearly dishonest and applying confirmation bias.  In the previous segment on St. Ambrose, it is absolutely clear to anyone who is honest and not applying said confirmation bias that he was talking about the "sphere" of the firmament on top of which the waters rest.

As for this passage, it's unclear, but without further proof, some more context, it is not possible to know what is meant here.  This is not evidence, Dr. Sungenis.

If by "globe" here, Archelaus means a ball earth on which people live, please do explain what the "MIDDLE" of such a "globe" would be ... from East to West?  On a globe as conceived by Dr. Sungenis and the globe earthers, there's NO MIDDLE between WEST AND EAST as described here.  This suggests that once again he's speaking of a flat surface, with an East and a West EDGE or END, that's under a globe firmament.

And it's entirely unclear what he means that those in the middle (between east and west) "always see an equality of light".  

Re: Dr. Sungenis: Flat Earth Flat Wrong
« Reply #3 on: August 13, 2022, 04:29:18 PM »
How many pages is the pdf? Can you post some more of it?

Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Dr. Sungenis: Flat Earth Flat Wrong
« Reply #4 on: August 13, 2022, 04:33:13 PM »
How many pages is the pdf? Can you post some more of it?

These two quotes comprise one page of his PDF, which is about 800 pages long.  And I would consider it theft if I simply posted the entire PDF.  It can be obtained for $10 on his website.  As I have time to go through it, I'll post pieces of it, with my commentary (with the notion of fair use), but I would  not feel right posting the entire thing.  Not to mention that it's nearly 100MB in size.

You can get it here.
http://flatearthflatwrong.com/