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Author Topic: Did Catholics before the "Reformation" believe in FE?  (Read 47156 times)

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Offline Jaynek

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Re: Did Catholics before the "Reformation" believe in FE?
« Reply #255 on: December 02, 2017, 08:41:15 PM »
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  • You talk, you claim, but you do not cite, source, or quote.  So basically, we're relying on your opinion.  Remember, the pagan globalists of at least the past 500 are in question here, along with the modern ones destroying with their nєω ωσrℓ∂ σr∂єr.  What's fascinating in these threads is that I quote scripture, Popes, Saints, and Catholics, with sources, and I get hammered with every kind of detraction.  You post sentences, without sources, without explanation, and... crickets.  Sometimes, when looking for truth in murky setting, its the little things.  
    You quote them but interpret them contrary to how the Church teaches you should.  These quotes do not show that you are taking a Catholic position.  They are showing the opposite.  You reject Church teaching on how to understand Scripture and the Fathers.  Your underlying assumptions are wrong so virtually everything you post is wrong.  You are not proving what you think your are proving with all your quotes.  You are showing yourself to be a bad Catholic.  This is not detraction.  It is fraternal correction for your own good.  You need to repent.

    I am about to take a break for Advent so I probably won't see any responses to this until I come back. 

    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: Did Catholics before the "Reformation" believe in FE?
    « Reply #256 on: December 02, 2017, 10:15:00 PM »
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  • Quote
    Quote from: happenby on Today at 05:15:50 PM
    What's fascinating in these threads is that I quote scripture, Popes, Saints, and Catholics, with sources, and I get hammered with every kind of detraction.  

    You quote them but interpret them contrary to how the Church teaches you should.  These quotes do not show that you are taking a Catholic position.  They are showing the opposite.  You reject Church teaching on how to understand Scripture and the Fathers.  Your underlying assumptions are wrong so virtually everything you post is wrong.  You are not proving what you think your are proving with all your quotes.  You are showing yourself to be a bad Catholic.  This is not detraction.  It is fraternal correction for your own good.  You need to repent.

    I am about to take a break for Advent so I probably won't see any responses to this until I come back.
    .
    Have a nice Advent, Jaynek!
    .

    Why should anyone try to quote Scripture when all you have to do is open your eyes and think?
    .
    You don't need the Church or the Bible to see the reality and truth that the earth is not "flat."
    .
    That's not what the Church or the Bible is for in the first place.
    .
    Do you need the Church or the Bible to determine the square root of 2?
    .
    Do you need the Church or the Bible to answer the question, Who wrote the words in the Star Spangled Banner?
    .
    Do you need the Church or the Bible to know what atmospheric pressure is at sea level?
    .
    Oh, sorry, maybe I should say atmosflatic pressure. HAHAHAHA
    .
    .--. .-.-.- ... .-.-.- ..-. --- .-. - .... . -.- .. -. --. -.. --- -- --..-- - .... . .--. --- .-- . .-. .- -. -.. -....- -....- .--- ..- ... - -.- .. -.. -.. .. -. --. .-.-.


    Offline kiwiboy

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    Re: Did Catholics before the "Reformation" believe in FE?
    « Reply #257 on: December 03, 2017, 06:11:27 AM »
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  • You quote them but interpret them contrary to how the Church teaches you should.  These quotes do not show that you are taking a Catholic position.  They are showing the opposite.  You reject Church teaching on how to understand Scripture and the Fathers.  Your underlying assumptions are wrong so virtually everything you post is wrong.  You are not proving what you think your are proving with all your quotes.  You are showing yourself to be a bad Catholic.  This is not detraction.  It is fraternal correction for your own good.  You need to repent.

    I am about to take a break for Advent so I probably won't see any responses to this until I come back.


    Sorry Jaynek, but you wont get away with that.

    The condmenation from the holy office is pretty clear.

    you have one minor encyclical from Leo XIII which is not even clearly referring to the flat earth.

    The popes can teach error. Did you know that? The fathers are clear on this issue.

    They don't HAVE to be unanimous for it to be a teaching.

    Offline kiwiboy

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    Re: Did Catholics before the "Reformation" believe in FE?
    « Reply #258 on: December 03, 2017, 06:22:37 AM »
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  • Ladilaus,
    Here is the video I was talking about


    Offline happenby

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    Re: Did Catholics before the "Reformation" believe in FE?
    « Reply #259 on: December 03, 2017, 10:59:07 AM »
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  • .
    Do you want sources?
    .
    They won't be Scriptural, so forget that.
    .
    I know that's all you'll accept, so why bother.
    .
    Where does the Bible define the speed of light or the colors of the rainbow?
    .
    Tell us where the Bible lists in order the philosophical categories of being.
    .
    Where, oh where does Scripture pronounce on the relative electrical conductivity of silicon and gold?
    .
    These things are observable with our 5 senses and with the use of human reason.
    .
    Just like the sphericity of the earth is knowable by same.
    .
    If your sources aren't scriptural, why do you accept them to the exclusion of scripture?  You say that scripture is all I'll accept, but that isn't the case at all.  It just so happens that scripture and science are never at odds with each other and there is plenty of proof that earth is not a globe.  Conversely, there are zero empirical proofs that earth is a globe.  Further, the science that brings the sphere to the table has been condemned by the Church.  Copernicus' model was specifically condemned.  And as shown before Copernicus is responsible for resurrecting the pagan spherical model of earth. 


    Offline happenby

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    Re: Did Catholics before the "Reformation" believe in FE?
    « Reply #260 on: December 03, 2017, 11:01:16 AM »
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  • Sorry Jaynek, but you wont get away with that.

    The condmenation from the holy office is pretty clear.

    you have one minor encyclical from Leo XIII which is not even clearly referring to the flat earth.

    The popes can teach error. Did you know that? The fathers are clear on this issue.

    They don't HAVE to be unanimous for it to be a teaching.
    This is true, but unfortunately for Ms. Ding Dong Ditch the fathers of the Church who actually taught on the subject are in fact, unanimous. 

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Did Catholics before the "Reformation" believe in FE?
    « Reply #261 on: December 03, 2017, 05:23:49 PM »
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  • This is true, but unfortunately for Ms. Ding Dong Ditch the fathers of the Church who actually taught on the subject are in fact, unanimous.

    Even if you can demonstrate unanimity, that by itself does not necessarily rise to the level of dogmatic consensus.  You'd have to have some indication that they considered it a matter of faith, that they were merely passing on teaching that traces ultimately back to the Apostles.  Simple opinining without dissent isn't sufficient.

    Offline happenby

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    Re: Did Catholics before the "Reformation" believe in FE?
    « Reply #262 on: December 04, 2017, 12:04:35 PM »
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  • Even if you can demonstrate unanimity, that by itself does not necessarily rise to the level of dogmatic consensus.  You'd have to have some indication that they considered it a matter of faith, that they were merely passing on teaching that traces ultimately back to the Apostles.  Simple opinining without dissent isn't sufficient.
    True.  But without a single contrary teaching, literally zero Catholic teaching that earth is a globe, the fe saints' unanimity with scripture has some teeth here.  Beyond that, we have the science, the math, the reason, the motive for the lie...plus, the converse teachings are pagan, ridiculous and untenable.  
    One thing must be fleshed out here.  Heliocentrism is a model that includes a globe earth jetting through space in 4 different directions, that stars are worlds, and that the sun is relatively stationary in relation to earth, while the whole enchilada blasts through space in a 500,000 mile per hour from a Big Bang.
    Geocentrism teaches earth is flat and stationary with the heavenly lights, sun, moon and stars, which keep time, tell seasons and as scripture says, "for signs", as well as lighting the skies for earth from under the dome that separates heaven from earth.  
    Somewhere along the way, people became confused and have created a sub-model hybrid of Heliocentrism and Geocentrism where earth is a stationary ball hanging in space.  
    The most recent characters promoting this hybrid are Robert Sungenis and Rick Delano, both Catholic.  Rick Delano is a very staunch anti-bod'er, as well, so I have every respect for that.  But they are wrong about earth being a globe.  I've written a very telling article showing that Mr. Sungenis is a closet Heliocentric and that his entire premise is sourced from pagans and pagan science.  
    Here's the link: http://flatearthtrads.forumga.net/t103-critique-of-robert-sungenis-article-against-flat-earth
    For further Catholic information on flat earth, the above link is just a small portion of information available on this site:
    http://flatearthtrads.forumga.net/


    Offline happenby

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    Re: Did Catholics before the "Reformation" believe in FE?
    « Reply #263 on: December 04, 2017, 12:09:14 PM »
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  • True.  But without a single contrary teaching, literally zero Catholic teaching that earth is a globe, the fe saints' unanimity with scripture has some teeth here.  Beyond that, we have the science, the math, the reason, the motive for the lie...plus, the converse teachings are pagan, ridiculous and untenable.  
    One thing must be fleshed out here.  Heliocentrism is a model that includes a globe earth jetting through space in 4 different directions, that stars are worlds, and that the sun is relatively stationary in relation to earth, while the whole enchilada blasts through space in a 500,000 mile per hour from a Big Bang.
    Geocentrism teaches earth is flat and stationary with the heavenly lights, sun, moon and stars, which keep time, tell seasons and as scripture says, "for signs", as well as lighting the skies for earth from under the dome that separates heaven from earth.  
    Somewhere along the way, people became confused and have created a sub-model hybrid of Heliocentrism and Geocentrism where earth is a stationary ball hanging in space.  
    The most recent characters promoting this hybrid are Robert Sungenis and Rick Delano, both Catholic.  Rick Delano is a very staunch anti-bod'er, as well, so I have every respect for that.  But they are wrong about earth being a globe.  I've written a very telling article showing that Mr. Sungenis is a closet Heliocentric and that his entire premise is sourced from pagans and pagan science.  
    Here's the link: http://flatearthtrads.forumga.net/t103-critique-of-robert-sungenis-article-against-flat-earth
    For further Catholic information on flat earth, the above link is just a small portion of information available on this site:
    http://flatearthtrads.forumga.net/

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Did Catholics before the "Reformation" believe in FE?
    « Reply #264 on: December 05, 2017, 08:18:19 AM »
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  • True.  But without a single contrary teaching, literally zero Catholic teaching that earth is a globe, the fe saints' unanimity with scripture has some teeth here. 

    But, to my point, did any of the Fathers teach that flat earth is a matter of doctrine and, more particularly, that it was teaching handed down to them from the Apostles?  That is key.  Just because they agree on something doesn't make it dogmatic consensus.  Remember that the Church Fathers are not a rule of faith unto themselves and are significant to the extent that they can give an indication in their unanimity that something was revealed and transmitted from the Apostles.  But agreement by itself doesn't prove that the point in question was handed down from the Apostles.

    Offline kiwiboy

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    Re: Did Catholics before the "Reformation" believe in FE?
    « Reply #265 on: December 05, 2017, 10:15:46 AM »
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  • Ladislaus,

    your openess and civility on this question is appreciated.
     
    It seems to me so far that the key to answering this question is the condemnation of Galileo where the Holy office said that he was suspect of heresy for having believed and taught that the sun was the center of the world, that it did not move from east to west, and that the earth moves, and is not the center of the world.

    These are all things which touch on the creation of God, which the Holy Office is saying is part of the faith.

    I have mentioned in earlier posts that the focus on the flatness of the earth is a new one (relatively). It is a shame that it has come to be known as this, and in a certain way, we are giving into the enemies of the Church by focusing on this and calling ourselves flat earthers. It is understandable because the lack of curvature is the best way to prove the truth.

    But my point is that when the Fathers and the Holy office (as late as the 16th century) spoke, it was to condemn something that was certainly false, rather than to make definitive statements as to it's precise shape.

    The biggest problem we have therefore is people who are so dogmatically insistent on the globe, (or secretly so like even steven), when it has clearly been condemned.

    After that, people are free to have different opinions on whether something is of the faith and hopefully the Church will rule on it someday.


    Offline RoughAshlar

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    Re: Did Catholics before the "Reformation" believe in FE?
    « Reply #266 on: December 05, 2017, 10:43:56 AM »
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  • Everything gets jumbled together in this topic but it seems like there is a scriptural argument, scientific argument, Church history argument, doctors vs encyclical argument, and then a mixture of (conjecture, conspiracy, opinion, and emotion all rolled into one)  It would be nice if we had separate threads for separate discussions/debates/

    Offline RoughAshlar

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    Re: Did Catholics before the "Reformation" believe in FE?
    « Reply #267 on: December 05, 2017, 10:56:47 AM »
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  • Kiwi,

    Just to clarify you said that, "The biggest problem we have therefore is people who are so dogmatically insistent on the globe, (or secretly so like even steven), when it has clearly been condemned."

    Isn't it conflating shape with heliocentrism?  Wasn't Galileo condemned because helio was strongly suspected of heresy?

    Was the globe specifically condemned?

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Did Catholics before the "Reformation" believe in FE?
    « Reply #268 on: December 05, 2017, 11:08:11 AM »
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  • It seems to me so far that the key to answering this question is the condemnation of Galileo where the Holy office said that he was suspect of heresy for having believed and taught that the sun was the center of the world, that it did not move from east to west, and that the earth moves, and is not the center of the world.

    These are all things which touch on the creation of God, which the Holy Office is saying is part of the faith.

    Sure, there can be a crossover between matters of science and matters of faith ... so, for instance, heliocentrism or evolution.  But the question is whether the Fathers were relaying some revealed doctrine or else just going with their own scientific assumptions at the time.  I am in fact a geocentrist.

    But I'm still studying Flat Earth.  So, for instance, some pro-FE sources say that all flights between South America and Australia move across the U.S. West Coast ... which would make sense, since it's a huge distance to cover directly on a flat earth circular disc model.  But them an anti-FE source said that there have been new flights introduced that go directly across, and they cover the distance in the time expected by a globe earth model, that the planes would have to be travelling at Mach 2 (Concorde speeds) to make in that time period the distance that it would be on a Flat Earth model.  Some people claim that these flights don't exist, whereas others claim that they were ON these flights and covered the distance in the amount of time described.

    Offline happenby

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    Re: Did Catholics before the "Reformation" believe in FE?
    « Reply #269 on: December 05, 2017, 01:09:13 PM »
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  • But, to my point, did any of the Fathers teach that flat earth is a matter of doctrine and, more particularly, that it was teaching handed down to them from the Apostles?  That is key.  Just because they agree on something doesn't make it dogmatic consensus.  Remember that the Church Fathers are not a rule of faith unto themselves and are significant to the extent that they can give an indication in their unanimity that something was revealed and transmitted from the Apostles.  But agreement by itself doesn't prove that the point in question was handed down from the Apostles.
    What the Fathers taught about creation was fairly extensive, and in some cases quite detailed.  While the term "flat earth" was not commonly used, (although sixth century Catholic monk Cosmas used it frequently) what ancient Catholic saints and Fathers teach on the matter is that earth is necessarily flat, cannot a sphere and they base it all on scripture.  What you are asking, in essence then, is, "Is what scripture says about earth a matter of doctrine?"  Or, more poignantly and not to be facetious, "Are the words of scripture inerrant?"  Now, you know of course, they are. Still, you wonder, does scripture really describe a flat earth to the point that earth's form is actually 'doctrine'?  My answer is, scripture's description of earth's form is infallible and that is why the Fathers expounded on it.
    The Church Fathers go so far as to say, (and lo and behold, it all fits): That the earth literally sits on pillars, has a dome, has four corners, a face, a fixed foundation at the bottom of creation, that the sun moon and stars are under the dome, that the dome is a solid barrier, that there is water above the dome, that God is above it all, in heaven. That man resides under the dome in the intermediate position, with hell below him.  That Jerusalem is in the center of the earth.  And that there are no antipodes--that is, people who live upside down relative to others, as Cosmas so aptly describes, "on whom the rain must fall up."