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Author Topic: Did Catholics before the "Reformation" believe in FE?  (Read 47152 times)

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Offline happenby

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Re: Did Catholics before the "Reformation" believe in FE?
« Reply #225 on: December 01, 2017, 09:21:28 AM »
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  • Speaking of my duties as a wife, I have other things to do than make the same points over and over again on this thread.  I have done my best to explain Church teaching.  If people are not going to accept it, that is not my responsibility.
    Explaining Church teaching contrary to Church teaching is not explaining but perverting.  You have exactly zero proofs that earth is a globe.  You have zero proofs that the Church taught earth is a globe.  You have zero proofs that those who defend the literal interpretation of scripture as the Church Fathers specifically did on this subject are wrong.  On the other hand, we have provided you with a small portion of what the Church teaches on the subject only to be subjected to scorn, ridicule, disbelief, and odd interpretations of encyclicals that undermine what the Fathers actually teach because you are afraid of how that is going to affect you and your relationship with your husband and friends.  Who can accept that? 

    Offline happenby

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    Re: Did Catholics before the "Reformation" believe in FE?
    « Reply #226 on: December 01, 2017, 09:34:54 AM »
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  • Honestly, you're all wasting too much time on what St. Thomas believed on this matter.  Whether he believed round or flat makes little difference.  What's at issue is whether the Church has pronounced on this subject.  In point of fact, the Magisterium has never even opined in favor of Flat Earth or Spherical Earth.  Indeed, there were some early Church Fathers who believed this, but the Providentissmus Deus quote amply demonstrates that a consensus on a scientific matter by the Fathers does not constitute the dogmatic consensus that's typically the hallmark of something being part of the Deposit.  It's quite possible, as Pope Leo teaches, that it was simply a function of the state of science at the time ... and not something revealed by Our Lord to the Apostles.  So this argument that it's Church teaching I find utterly unconvincing ... and much less that it's "heresy" to believe in a Spherical Earth.

    I am willing to discuss this on its scientific merits but this idea that it's part of the Church's Magisterium I find to be preposterous.
    We can always discuss Fe on its scientific merits, but you have seen only a fraction of the proofs that the Church teaches it.  It seems to me that what appears to be ludicrous at first glance should not be tossed out because of an impression, but further requests for proof are naturally desirable in order to be certain.  If you think that is preposterous, try this: Heliocentrism is the foundation of the nєω ωσrℓ∂ σr∂єr.
    But lets let that rest a while and try some math and science.  It is impossible for sundials, gyros, sextants, astrolabes, airplanes, laser levels and light houses to work on a globe.  At a mere 90 miles distance, the earth of said 25,000 miles in circuмference would leave any target a mile below view.  Planes would have to dip their noses down to follow the arc to complete any distance across the face of the earth, yet their gyros don't operate that way because gyros are only capable of keeping planes level.  What do you have to say about the lack of curve and the impossibility of using said instruments on a globe? 


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Did Catholics before the "Reformation" believe in FE?
    « Reply #227 on: December 01, 2017, 09:35:12 AM »
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  • Pope Leo XIII, Providentissimus Deus

    Quote
    The unshrinking defence of the Holy Scripture, however, does not require that we should equally uphold all the opinions which each of the Fathers or the more recent interpreters have put forth in explaining it; for it may be that, in commenting on passages where physical matters occur, they have sometimes expressed the ideas of their own times, and thus made statements which in these days have been abandoned as incorrect. 

    There's no proof that, when the Fathers were expounding on Flat Earth, they were speaking of something that was revealed though the Apostles rather than "expressing ideas of their own times".  Is there anything in the Church Fathers that indicates that the position was taught by the Apostles or taught by the Church vs. their own personal opinion?  That's what is usually necessary in order to establish a Patristic dogmatic consensus and not a mere unanimity of thought.

    Offline budDude

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    Re: Did Catholics before the "Reformation" believe in FE?
    « Reply #228 on: December 01, 2017, 09:36:48 AM »
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  • I find it interesting that many explorers have traversed the earth horizontally.

    But not a single one, to date, in ancient or modern times, has ever crossed the earth vertically.  North/South full rotation.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Did Catholics before the "Reformation" believe in FE?
    « Reply #229 on: December 01, 2017, 09:37:13 AM »
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  • If you think that is preposterous, try this: Heliocentrism is the foundation of the nєω ωσrℓ∂ σr∂єr.

    You continue to conflate Heliocentrism with Globe Earth; they are NOT the same thing.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Did Catholics before the "Reformation" believe in FE?
    « Reply #230 on: December 01, 2017, 09:45:27 AM »
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  • But lets let that rest a while and try some math and science.  It is impossible for sundials, gyros, sextants, astrolabes, airplanes, laser levels and light houses to work on a globe.  At a mere 90 miles distance, the earth of said 25,000 miles in circuмference would leave any target a mile below view.  Planes would have to dip their noses down to follow the arc to complete any distance across the face of the earth, yet their gyros don't operate that way because gyros are only capable of keeping planes level.  What do you have to say about the lack of curve and the impossibility of using said instruments on a globe?

    I don't really know enough about how these instruments work.  As for keeping planes level, as long as the gyros kept the plane level vis-a-vis the surface, only a very subtle correction of angle (or extremely slight downward dip of the nose) would be needed from time to time to keep the plane at the same altitude.  That one I don't see as a big deal.  I don't understand why a sundial, sextant, or astrolabe would not work on a globe earth.  I do find the Hungarian laser experiment intriguing.  I'll keep studying as I have time.

    Offline happenby

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    Re: Did Catholics before the "Reformation" believe in FE?
    « Reply #231 on: December 01, 2017, 09:53:40 AM »
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  • I don't really know enough about how these instruments work.  As for keeping planes level, as long as the gyros kept the plane level vis-a-vis the surface, only a very subtle correction of angle (or extremely slight downward dip of the nose) would be needed from time to time to keep the plane at the same altitude.  That one I don't see as a big deal.  I don't understand why a sundial, sextant, or astrolabe would not work on a globe earth.  I do find the Hungarian laser experiment intriguing.  I'll keep studying as I have time.
    Astrolabes and sextants work with lines and angles and line of sight.  How can you measure anything when your target is many feet below your line of sight?
    IF the earth is a globe, and is 25,000 English statute miles in circuмference, the surface of all standing water must have a certain degree of convexity--every part must be an arc of a circle. From the summit of any such arc there will exist a curvature or declination of 8 inches in the first statute mile. In the second mile the fall will be 32 inches; in the third mile, 72 inches, or 6 feet, as shown in the following diagram:

    [size=-3]FIG. 1.[/size]
    Let the distance from T to figure 1 represent 1 mile, and the fall from 1 to A, 8 inches; then the fall from 2 to B will be 32 inches, and from 3 to C, 72 inches. In every
    p. 10
    mile after the first, the curvature downwards from the point T increases as the square of the distance multiplied by 8 inches. The rule, however, requires to be modified after the first thousand miles. 1 The following table will show at a glance the amount of curvature, in round numbers, in different distances up to 100 miles.
    Curvature
    in
    1
    statute
    mile
    8
    inches.
    "
    "
    2
    "
    "
    32
    "
    "
    "
    3
    "
    "
    6
    feet.
    "
    "
    4
    "
    "
    10
    "
    "
    "
    5
    "
    "
    16
    "
    "
    "
    6
    "
    "
    24
    "
    "
    "
    7
    "
    "
    32
    "
    "
    "
    8
    "
    "
    42
    "
    "
    "
    9
    "
    "
    54
    "
    "
    "
    10
    "
    "
    66
    "
    "
    "
    20
    "
    "
    266
    "
    "
    "
    30
    "
    "
    600
    "
    "
    "
    40
    "
    "
    1066
    "
    "
    "
    50
    "
    "
    1666
    "
    "
    "
    60
    "
    "
    2400
    "
    "
    "
    70
    "
    "
    3266
    "
    "
    "
    80
    "
    "
    4266
    "
    "
    "
    90
    "
    "
    5400
    "
    "
    "
    100
    "
    "
    6666
    "
    "
    120
    "
    "
    9600
    " 2

    No worries, your interest is refreshing.

    Offline kiwiboy

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    Re: Did Catholics before the "Reformation" believe in FE?
    « Reply #232 on: December 01, 2017, 09:54:17 AM »
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  • Thanks for your openness Ladlislaus.

    The hungarian experiment is very interesting and the most "scientific". It is unlikely to be repeated in the near future.

    Flat earthers spend so much of their time defending themselves against persecutions by friends and family and don't have the resources to perform such experiments. Someday perhaps we can get more.

    But the objects over the horizon proofs suffice for me. As long as you can clearly establish what height the observer is at and all the factors are clearly laid out, it is easy to verify the results.

    Don't forget the lack of horizontal curavture either. The curve is suppose to be such that after 120 miles there is a difference of 1.8 miles. Clearly such a difference should be visible. The difficulty is often being able to get to a high enough point to see this and find two points we know are this distance apart. I have yet to see experiments on this point.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Did Catholics before the "Reformation" believe in FE?
    « Reply #233 on: December 01, 2017, 10:02:29 AM »
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  • Ladislaus,
    What precisely is more convincing for you on the debunking flat earth side?

    Not being nasty here, but how is it more convincing than the lack of curvature?

    I am not yet convinced about lack of curvature.  I have a real problem with the long days near the Southern Pole at certain times of the year, including 24-hour days at the Pole.  I don't see how Flat Earth can account for that given how the sun would have to move across it.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Did Catholics before the "Reformation" believe in FE?
    « Reply #234 on: December 01, 2017, 10:04:32 AM »
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  • Thanks for your openness Ladlislaus.

    You needn't thank me.  I owe it to myself and to the interests of truth to remain open.  I'd be lying if I would stand here and pontificate with certainty that the earth is a globe.

    Offline happenby

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    Re: Did Catholics before the "Reformation" believe in FE?
    « Reply #235 on: December 01, 2017, 10:08:08 AM »
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  • You needn't thank me.  I owe it to myself and to the interests of truth to remain open.  I'd be lying if I would stand here and pontificate with certainty that the earth is a globe.
    It's just that that's rare.


    Offline Meg

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    Re: Did Catholics before the "Reformation" believe in FE?
    « Reply #236 on: December 01, 2017, 11:00:43 AM »
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  • I find it interesting that many explorers have traversed the earth horizontally.

    But not a single one, to date, in ancient or modern times, has ever crossed the earth vertically.  North/South full rotation.

    That is interesting. Whenever we think of the explorers of the past, they usually travel horizontally. What we consider to be from west to east, or east to west. 
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline happenby

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    Re: Did Catholics before the "Reformation" believe in FE?
    « Reply #237 on: December 01, 2017, 11:58:29 AM »
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  • That is interesting. Whenever we think of the explorers of the past, they usually travel horizontally. What we consider to be from west to east, or east to west.
    To this day, no airplane will take you to the other side of the earth by going over the "North Pole" or "South Pole".  All travel tends to be east to west.  There are no flights around the "globe" that travel over either "pole".

    Offline happenby

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    Re: Did Catholics before the "Reformation" believe in FE?
    « Reply #238 on: December 01, 2017, 12:37:29 PM »
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  • https://www.flightradar24.com/23.02,-43.79/2

    Live flight air tracker. Zoom out. No flights over poles.

    Offline kiwiboy

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    Re: Did Catholics before the "Reformation" believe in FE?
    « Reply #239 on: December 01, 2017, 03:35:54 PM »
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  • I am not yet convinced about lack of curvature.  I have a real problem with the long days near the Southern Pole at certain times of the year, including 24-hour days at the Pole.  I don't see how Flat Earth can account for that given how the sun would have to move across it.


    Ok, but the explanation for how the sun works on a flat earth and whether the earth actually has curvature are very different things.

    Did you get time to catch the video I posted about there being no 24 hour sun in Antartica?