You didn't say the earth was moving.  I added it because it is part of the heliocentric model.  As far as the sun moving being relative, you make my case about relativity.  You're saying: either it does, or it doesn't, or it kind of does, but we're not sure, everything's relative, frame of reference, etc. You're not being precise but relative, so there is no answer.  Does the sun move or not?  Either it does or it doesn't, despite frame of reference or any other convoluted nonsense pagan science has forced us to imbibe.  Thankfully, we can be sure the sun moves because the Church has spoken through the Holy Office in 1633:
The proposition that the Sun is the centre of the world and does not move from its place is absurd and false philosophically and formally heretical, because it is expressly contrary to the Holy Scripture.

 
The proposition that the Earth is not the centre of the world and immovable but that it moves, and also with a diurnal motion, is equally absurd and false philosophically and theologically considered at least erroneous in faith.

I guess that my point is that it's not proof that the earth is stationary when the Bible says that the sun moved.  There are some very compelling scientific experiments which demonstrate that the earth does NOT move.  Merely looking at objects and the perception that they're moving doesn't suffice.  Nor do mathematical models.  But the Michelson-Morley experiment basically proved that the earth isn't moving.  In fact, it's because of Michelson-Morley that Einstein and others came up with relativity, in order to explain how the earth was still moving despite Michelson-Morley.  But to put the nail in the coffin of moving earth, all scientists would have to do is to send a Michelson-Morley apparatus to the moon.  It would be a relatively low-cost mission and could answer the question once and for all.  But they won't do it ... because they're afraid of what they'll find.

OK, then what passages suggest flat earth?  If it's not in the Bible explicitly, then it's the product of interpretation from some Church Fathers and, in that case, the teaching of Providentissimus Deus by Pope Leo XIII applies.

Forgive me for this, I pulled several passages from various places and they are not organized as I'd like.
Isaiah 40:22 It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:
Isaiah 44:24 Thus saith the Lord, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the Lord that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;
Isaiah 48:13 Mine hand also hath laid the foundation of the earth, and my right hand hath spanned the heavens: when I call unto them, they stand up together.
Isaiah 66:1 Thus saith the Lord, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool: where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my rest?
Ezekiel 1:26 And above the firmament that was over their heads was the likeness of a throne, as the appearance of a sapphire stone: and upon the likeness of the throne was the likeness as the appearance of a man above upon it.
Amos 9:6 (NASB) The One who builds His upper chambers in the heavens And has founded His vaulted dome over the earth,
He who calls for the waters of the sea And pours them out on the face of the earth, The Lord is His name.
Job 9:6 Which shaketh the earth out of her place, and the pillars thereof tremble.
Job 26:7 He stretcheth out the north over the empty place, and hangeth the earth upon nothing.
Job 26:10 He hath compassed the waters with bounds, until the day and night come to an end.
Job 28:24 For he looketh to the ends of the earth, and seeth under the whole heaven;
Job 37:3 He directeth it under the whole heaven, and his lightning unto the ends of the earth.
Job 38
1 Then the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said,
2 Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?
3 Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me.
4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;
7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
Job 38:13 That it might take hold of the ends of the earth, that the wicked might be shaken out of it?

1 Samuel 2:8 He raiseth up the poor out of the dust, and lifteth up the beggar from the dunghill, to set them among princes, and to make them inherit the throne of glory: for the pillars of the earth are the Lord's, and he hath set the world upon them.
1 Chronicles 16:30 Fear before him, all the earth: the world also shall be stable, that it be not moved.
Psalm 18:15 Then the channels of waters were seen, and the foundations of the world were discovered at thy rebuke, O Lord, at the blast of the breath of thy nostrils.
Psalm 75:3 The earth and all the inhabitants thereof are dissolved: I bear up the pillars of it.
Psalm 96:11 Let the heavens rejoice, and let the earth be glad; let the sea roar, and the fulness thereof.
Psalm 102:25 Of old hast thou laid the foundation of the earth: and the heavens are the work of thy hands.
Psalm 136 5 Who laid the foundations of the earth, that it should not be removed for ever.
              27 When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:
             28 When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:
            29 When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth:
Isaiah 11:12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.
Isaiah 40:22 It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:
Isaiah 43:6 I'll say to the north, 'Give them up'! and to the south, 'Don't keep them back!' Bring my sons from far away and my daughters from the ends of the earth—
Daniel 4:
10 Thus were the visions of mine head in my bed; I saw, and behold a tree in the midst of the earth, and the height thereof was great.
11 The tree grew, and was strong, and the height thereof reached unto heaven, and the sight thereof to the end of all the earth:
Matthew 4:
8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;
9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.
Matthew 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
John 17:24
Father, I desire that they also, whom thou hast given me, may be with me where I am, to behold my glory which thou hast given me in thy love for me before the foundation of the world.
Revelation 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
Revelation 7:1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.
Revelation 20:8 He will go out to deceive Gog and Magog, the nations at the four corners of the earth, and gather them for war. They are as numerous as the sands of the seashore.

Scriptures concerning the nature of the sun, moon and stars:
Genesis 1:
14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,
18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.
Psalms 19:
1 The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork.
2 Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge.
3 There is no speech nor language, where their voice is not heard.
4 Their line is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them hath he set a tabernacle for the sun,
5 Which is as a bridegroom coming out of his chamber, and rejoiceth as a strong man to run a race.
6 His going forth is from the end of the heaven, and his circuit unto the ends of it: and there is nothing hid from the heat thereof.
Ecclesiastes 1:5 The sun also ariseth, and the sun goeth down, and hasteth to his place where he arose.
Joshua 10:13 And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies. Is not this written in the book of Jasher? So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day.

======================================================================
This list is not exhaustive, its just what I could gather for the moment.  Let me point out something: if we are to take scripture literally when it comes to the sun moving (as St. Robert Bellarmine explains in 1633), or when Jesus tells us to eat His body and drink His Blood, then why should we not take literally that the earth is set on pillars, has four corners, is hung on nothing at the bottom of creation, etc.  Historian Dickenson White admits the Catholic case for flat earth is based in tradition and scripture when he says of 6th century writer Cosmas Indiocopleustes:

Nothing can be more touching in its simplicity than Cosmas's summing up of his great argument, He declares, "We say therefore with Isaiah that the heaven embracing the universe is a vault, with Job that it is joined to the earth, and with Moses that the length of the earth is greater than its breadth." 

Thank you truth is eternal, for bringing things back to basics.

Jaynek,

Be careful. You are starting down a slippery slope of intellectual dishonesty from which it will be difficult to return.

Clearly you have a lot more time than me, and I cannot respond in detail to everyone of your objections. But there are responses to all of them.

Your assumption is false that most people at the time of St. Thomas thought the earth was round. You are working in a system of circular logic because you presume that scientifically the earth is round and therefore those who though the earth was round were right. This is why I start with the science.

The video you posted has been refuted many times. Here is the response to one of the objections (the orange one) made over 8 months ago http://flatearthtrads.forumga.net/t118-responses-to-more-technical-objections-on-flat-earth

His criciticm of convergence is not complete. The problem for him is that there are objects that we should NOT SEE AT ALL. Did you  watch any of the videos on the link I posted? Ladislaus himself supported my point that you cannot really argue on this if you don't look at our arguments.

While it is true that some flat earthers get the measurements wrong, many do not. and this is why I choose carefully the videos I show to people on this.

He makes absurd assertions that the cities would be visible all the time. How can he know this if he doesn't even accept the flat earth? How can I explain how that is contrary to common sense other than saying it is?

I have a LOT of experience discussing this topic and I see people when pushed into a corner will say the most ridiculous things because they WANT to BELIEVE the round earth. I can't help those people other than pray for them.


On superior mirages: A superior mirage does not explain the images you see in the videos I put up. The reason is because of their integrity and steadiness. Something which is not present in a reflected image (which is what a mirage is).

It is very interesting that no one in this entire thread believes that the earth is a globe. No globe earther has been able to explain the video below. :jumping2: :applause:

Haven't actually watched that one.  But you haven't explained why there are long days near Antarctica during their Summer ... that just doesn't compute with your model.

Thank you truth is eternal, for bringing things back to basics.

Jaynek,

Be careful. You are starting down a slippery slope of intellectual dishonesty from which it will be difficult to return.

Clearly you have a lot more time than me, and I cannot respond in detail to everyone of your objections. But there are responses to all of them.

Your assumption is false that most people at the time of St. Thomas thought the earth was round. You are working in a system of circular logic because you presume that scientifically the earth is round and therefore those who though the earth was round were right. This is why I start with the science.

It is not circular logic at all and has nothing to do with presumptions about science.  It is a matter of history that the main book on the subject used in medieval universities taught the earth is spherical.  From that we can deduce a few things.  Since the universities were Catholic institutions under the control of the Church, the Church had no problem with spherical earth being taught.  Since students at universities were being taught using this book, virtually all educated people believed in spherical earth.  Since this was so widely believed, when St. Thomas sounds like he takes acceptance of a spherical earth for granted, that is, in fact, what is happening.

I am not much interested in this as a science problem.  What has caught my attention is that the vast majority of FE proponents on this forum have a faulty understanding of Scriptural exegesis that is explicitly condemned in papal encyclicals.  Most proponents seem to incorrectly see FE as a doctrinal issue.  I find this sort of error quite disturbing. 

Even if this were true, not everything written by a Church Father is a Church teaching.  When they write on natural science it is not Church teaching because that is not a subject on which the Church gives instruction.  The Church is for bringing people to salvation and teaches us about faith and morals.  (This, by the way, is one reason why it was wrong for Pope Francis to make pronouncements about global warming.)  

The encyclical Providentissimus Deus explicitly says to not use the writing of the Fathers the way you are using them.
There is no Church teaching against antipodes of for flat earth.  We are under no obligation to believe the opinions expressed by Church Fathers on these matters.  Treating it as an obligation does not make one a good Catholic.  It makes one a Catholic who is ignoring the magisterial teaching that we are not required to uphold the opinions of the Fathers when they commented on physical matters.

...not everything written by a Church Father is a Church teaching.
True, but everything universally held by Church Fathers IS certainly Church teaching.  With zero heliocentric teachings to counter the geocentric teachings, we have no contest.  If you actually find there are some teachings by Fathers, Popes, or Saints, please provide them in the interest of truth. Everybody wants to know they exist.  But if you have none, or you find some snippet or phrase that seems to favor heliocentrism, just save it.  The mountains of evidence you'd have to overcome with so little will leave you looking like you are not interested in the mind of the Church or the truth, but rather, just want to deny perennial Catholic teaching. 

...not everything written by a Church Father is a Church teaching.
True, but everything universally held by Church Fathers IS certainly Church teaching.  With zero heliocentric teachings to counter the geocentric teachings, we have no contest.  If you actually find there are some teachings by Fathers, Popes, or Saints, please provide them in the interest of truth. Everybody wants to know they exist.  But if you have none, or you find some snippet or phrase that seems to favor heliocentrism, just save it.  The mountains of evidence you'd have to overcome with so little will leave you looking like you are not interested in the mind of the Church or the truth, but rather, just want to deny perennial Catholic teaching.

No, a thing universally held by Church Fathers would not be a Church teaching if it did not pertain to faith and morals.
This to is addressed in Providentissimus Deus:

Hence, in their interpretations, we must carefully note what they lay down as belonging to faith, or as intimately connected with faith-what they are unanimous in. For "in those things which do not come under the obligation of faith, the Saints were at liberty to hold divergent opinions, just as we ourselves are,"(55) according to the saying of St. Thomas. 

Even if every Father had written that he believed in a flat earth and not a single one in favour of a spherical earth (which is not the case) unless they had identified this as belonging to faith, we would be at liberty to believe the earth is a globe.  
So go through your quotes again and find how many of them explicitly identify flat earth as belonging to faith.  I did not notice any.

If you want to try to establish by science that the earth is flat, I don't care.  But when you treat FE as something that I as a Catholic am obliged to believe, then you are the one going against Church teaching.

You said: There is no Church teaching against antipodes of for flat earth.  
This particular Protestant historian relates well docuмented Catholic history to showcase how stupid Cathoics are for teaching flat earth, and in this case for teaching against the antipodes. Notice the language he uses which necessitates further investigation before making so bold a claim that there is no teaching against antipodes.  Severian Bishop of Gabala also specifically agrees that this is Church teaching.  

The great authority of Augustine, and the cogency of his scriptural argument, held the Church firmly against the doctrine of the antipodes; all schools of interpretation were now agreed--the followers of the allegorical tendencies of Alexandria, the strictly literals exegetes of Syria, the more eclectic theologians of the West. For over a thousand years it was held in the Church, "always, everywhere, and by all," that there could not be human beings on the opposite sides of the earth, even if the earth had opposite sides; and, when attacked by gainsayers the great mass of true believers, from the fourth century to the fifteenth, simply used that opiate which had so soothing an effect on John Henry Newman in the nineteenth century--securus judicat orbis terrarum.  

•pg 104 A History of the Warfare of Science with Theology in Christendom--Andrew Dickson White

In case you were wondering, this Latin phrase translates to:
securus judicat orbis terrarum—the secure judgment of the whole world, by which is meant the Catholic Church.

In other words, the entire Church held the view that there were no antipodes.

Excellent post, happenby.