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Author Topic: Did Catholics before the "Reformation" believe in FE?  (Read 47216 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Did Catholics before the "Reformation" believe in FE?
« Reply #135 on: November 29, 2017, 03:16:46 PM »
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  • The universe cannot be geo.  Geo refers to earth.  Geocentric means earth centered, so the universe has little to do with the term except that it means the sun and stars move, not the earth.

    If the universe is geocentric, this means that the earth is the center of the universe.  Not only do I believe the earth to be stationary, but I believe that it's located at the center of the universe.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Did Catholics before the "Reformation" believe in FE?
    « Reply #136 on: November 29, 2017, 03:17:44 PM »
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  • Firstly, it matters in one sense because modern pagan science teaches in every classroom around the world a heliocentric moving earth ball to the exclusion of flat stationary earth.  You say you believe earth is geocentric not heliocentric. So moderns are lying about stationary sun and moving earth, at least.  

    Geocentrism addresses this without the need to posit a flat earth.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Did Catholics before the "Reformation" believe in FE?
    « Reply #137 on: November 29, 2017, 03:20:02 PM »
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  • If we live on a ball, the word up doesn't mean up, as above, but it means out toward space in every direction... including down.  In other words, people live in contradiction to what is, by what they believe to be true...and that is based on their relative thinking, produced by their living on a ball.

    Interesting, but I am not particularly disturbed the notion that up might be a different direction depending on where you're at on the earth.

    Offline happenby

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    Re: Did Catholics before the "Reformation" believe in FE?
    « Reply #138 on: November 29, 2017, 04:04:29 PM »
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  • If the universe is geocentric, this means that the earth is the center of the universe.  Not only do I believe the earth to be stationary, but I believe that it's located at the center of the universe.
    That's good.  But why do you believe it is a ball?  Scripture has descriptions of earth being flat, covered by a dome above earth, with water above the dome.  It describes earth as having pillars on which it is founded, never to be moved.  That earth has four corners. With information from Cosmas of Indiocopleustes (based on Moses, the great cosmographer) who says earth is shaped like a Church or "tabernacle" with pillars and a dome. Scripture says earth stands out like a wax seal stamp, with edges.  And describes: As far as East is from West is as far as God removed our transgressions from us, etc.  All this and more scripture is distinctly describing a flat geocentric earth, as well as earth being stationary, with the sun moving around the earth.  What in scripture suggests earth is a ball, let alone moving?  Does it not stand to reason that those who were responsible for undermining Church teaching about moving earth have lied about it being a ball?  How does it make sense that water surface curves around the outside of earth, but such a phenomena cannot be duplicated on a smaller level? Water is level in my glass, in my pool, in the lake behind my house, in the great lakes... But the ocean surface curves?  Seriously? How is it that people say boats disappear over the curve, yet a camera with a decent lens proves the boat only disappeared into the atmosphere unrecognizable to the nake eye, yet remains visible well beyond any curve commensurate with a 25,000 mile ball with assistance?  How is it that the horizon rises to the level of the eye no matter how high one travels up?  Ever notice when you fly, the horizon is always at eye level.  That is impossible if earth is a ball.  It would fall away from the eye as one rose up. Reasonable questions answered reasonably prove scripture was telling us something very important about earth.  Consider these Fathers and Saints who were flat earthers: Moses, Enoch, Augustine, Cosmas, Chrystostom, Severian, Methodius, Lactanctius, and many more.  While a few saints had seemingly imbibed the ball notion along the way, not one taught it in any way.  Not one saint taught or explained that earth is a ball, or a moving ball.  The others however, give clear scriptural reasons for earth being flat and some elaborate on it extensively with the most beautiful, holy, Catholic expressions of reason.  No need to take my word, keep researching.          

    Offline happenby

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    Re: Did Catholics before the "Reformation" believe in FE?
    « Reply #139 on: November 29, 2017, 04:10:17 PM »
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  • Interesting, but I am not particularly disturbed the notion that up might be a different direction depending on where you're at on the earth.
    Reality affects how we discern.  If telemetry is off, we aren't going to get where we're going.  You say it doesn't bother you.  So, does it bother you that on a ball earth Jesus rose for some and descended relative to those on the opposite side of the ball?  That is a contradiction.  I do not have the quote any more, so forgive me for using it, but I saw the quote said by a Pope that Heliocentrism/Copernicanism was a denial of the Incarnation. Given the contradictions, I can see why. Since planet spheres were introduced by Copernicus, a rebel satanist, I think by that alone, we have a smoking gun.  But there's so much more...    


    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Did Catholics before the "Reformation" believe in FE?
    « Reply #140 on: November 29, 2017, 04:12:12 PM »
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  • That's good.  But why do you believe it is a ball?  Scripture has descriptions of earth being flat, covered by a dome above earth, with water above the dome.  It describes earth as having pillars on which it is founded, never to be moved.  That earth has four corners. With information from Cosmas of Indiocopleustes (based on Moses, the great cosmographer) who says earth is shaped like a Church or "tabernacle" with pillars and a dome. Scripture says earth stands out like a wax seal stamp, with edges.  And describes: As far as East is from West is as far as God removed our transgressions from us, etc.  All this and more scripture is distinctly describing a flat geocentric earth, as well as earth being stationary, with the sun moving around the earth.  What in scripture suggests earth is a ball, let alone moving?  Does it not stand to reason that those who were responsible for undermining Church teaching about moving earth have lied about it being a ball?  How does it make sense that water surface curves around the outside of earth, but such a phenomena cannot be duplicated on a smaller level? Water is level in my glass, in my pool, in the lake behind my house, in the great lakes... But the ocean surface curves?  Seriously? How is it that people say boats disappear over the curve, yet a camera with a decent lens proves the boat only disappeared into the atmosphere unrecognizable to the nake eye, yet remains visible well beyond any curve commensurate with a 25,000 mile ball with assistance?  How is it that the horizon rises to the level of the eye no matter how high one travels up?  Ever notice when you fly, the horizon is always at eye level.  That is impossible if earth is a ball.  It would fall away from the eye as one rose up. Reasonable questions answered reasonably prove scripture was telling us something very important about earth.  Consider these Fathers and Saints who were flat earthers: Moses, Enoch, Augustine, Cosmas, Chrystostom, Severian, Methodius, Lactanctius, and many more.  While a few saints had seemingly imbibed the ball notion along the way, not one taught it in any way.  Not one saint taught or explained that earth is a ball, or a moving ball.  The others however, give clear scriptural reasons for earth being flat and some elaborate on it extensively with the most beautiful, holy, Catholic expressions of reason.  No need to take my word, keep researching.          
    Another Flat Earther who ignores Church teaching on how to understand Scripture.

    Offline happenby

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    Re: Did Catholics before the "Reformation" believe in FE?
    « Reply #141 on: November 29, 2017, 04:47:57 PM »
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  • Another Flat Earther who ignores Church teaching on how to understand Scripture.
    Why do you disparage me, referring to me as a Flat Earther as though it were the stupiest thing ever? Do you realize that the saints, Fathers, Doctors, and ancients like Moses and Enoch taught earth is flat and stationary?  And that pagan Satan worshipers like Eratosthenes, Pythagoras, Newton, Copernicus, Einstein, Sagan and NASA teach earth is a moving ball? I wasn't the first to interpret scripture describing a flat earth (which it clearly does in dozens of ways).  Cosmas of Indiocopleustes, a Catholic monk, wrote a book in the sixth century describing his arguments against the pagans who brazenly taught moving ball earth.  You can read his book for free online.  Its called Christian Topography.  And St. Robert Bellarmine uses scripture to prove Galileo was wrong.  The notion that stars are worlds/planets was foisted on people by a demon worshiper, Copernicus.      
    As we can see, Copernicus is responsible for the notion of earth being a sphere.
    2.3 On the revolutions
    ...
    11). Particularly notable for Copernicus was that in Ptolemy's model the sun, the moon, and the five planets seemed ironically to have different motions from the other heavenly bodies and it made more sense for the small earth to move than the immense heavens. But the fact that Copernicus turned the earth into a planet did not cause him to reject Aristotelian physics, for he maintained that “land and water together press upon a single center of gravity; that the earth has no other center of magnitude; that, since earth is heavier, its gaps are filled with water…” (Revolutions, 10). As Aristotle had asserted, the earth was the center toward which the physical elements gravitate. This was a problem for Copernicus's model, because if the earth was no longer the center, why should elements gravitate toward it?



    From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    An astronomical system positing that the Earth, Moon, Sun and planets revolve around an unseen "Central Fire" was developed in the 5th century BC and has been attributed to the Pythagorean philosopher Philolaus, a version based on Stobaeus account, who betrays a tendency to confound the dogmas of the early Ionian philosophers, and he occasionally mixes up Platonism with Pythagoreanism.[1] Brewer (1894, page 2293) mentioned Pythagoras taught that the sun is a movable sphere in the centre of the universe, and that all the planets revolve round it.[2]
    The system has been called "the first coherent system in which celestial bodies move in circles",[3] anticipating Copernicus in moving "the earth from the center of the cosmos [and] making it a planet"


    Offline happenby

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    Re: Did Catholics before the "Reformation" believe in FE?
    « Reply #142 on: November 29, 2017, 04:53:33 PM »
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  • Geocentrism addresses this without the need to posit a flat earth.
    This is your perception, but it isn't factual.  Observe in my last post, that Copernicus is responsible for turning earth into a sphere/planet.


    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Did Catholics before the "Reformation" believe in FE?
    « Reply #143 on: November 29, 2017, 05:03:21 PM »
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  • Why do you disparage me, referring to me as a Flat Earther as though it were the stupiest thing ever? Do you realize that the saints, Fathers, Doctors, and ancients like Moses and Enoch taught earth is flat and stationary?  
    I am referring to you as a Flat Earther because you believe the earth is flat.  It did not occur to me that you would take it as a term of disparagement. I was under the impression that some of you used this term about yourselves. What is a neutral term for referring to the proponents of a flat earth?

    As I have said, there was never a consensus among Catholics that the earth was flat.  It was an opinion of some of the Early Church Fathers.  Others disagreed.  After that time, a consensus develop that the earth is a globe and that has been the view of Catholics (including Saints, Doctors, and popes) for most of our history.

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Did Catholics before the "Reformation" believe in FE?
    « Reply #144 on: November 29, 2017, 05:09:01 PM »
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  • Observe in my last post, that Copernicus is responsible for turning earth into a sphere/planet.
    Copernicus lived in the 15th century.  Catholics had believed in a spherical earth for many centuries before he was born.  Among them were St Albert the Great and St. Thomas Aquinas.

    Offline happenby

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    Re: Did Catholics before the "Reformation" believe in FE?
    « Reply #145 on: November 29, 2017, 06:41:35 PM »
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  • I am referring to you as a Flat Earther because you believe the earth is flat.  It did not occur to me that you would take it as a term of disparagement. I was under the impression that some of you used this term about yourselves. What is a neutral term for referring to the proponents of a flat earth?

    As I have said, there was never a consensus among Catholics that the earth was flat.  It was an opinion of some of the Early Church Fathers.  Others disagreed.  After that time, a consensus develop that the earth is a globe and that has been the view of Catholics (including Saints, Doctors, and popes) for most of our history.
    I'm wondering how it didn't occur to you that I would take it as a term of disparagement when you said: Flat Earther who ignores Church teaching on how to understand Scripture
    As if being flat earth means I ignore teachings on how to understand scripture. I understood exactly what you were saying.
    In fact, in understanding scripture we find the literal sense was long ago underscored by St. Thomas Aquinas in his recognition that "all the senses are founded on one—the literal—from which alone can any argument be drawn, and not from those intended in allegory.”

    This importance was reiterated in
    Pope Pius XII’s exhortation to Catholic biblical scholars:
    “let the Catholic exegete undertake the task, of all those
    imposed on him the greatest, that namely of discovering
    and expounding the genuine meaning of the Sacred Books.
    In the performance of this task let the interpreters bear in
    mind that their foremost and greatest endeavor should be
    to discern and define clearly that sense of the biblical words
    which is called literal.”

    So, when scripture says: And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. - Genesis 1:6   and
    Praise him, ye heavens of heavens, and ye waters that be above the heavens. - Psalms 148:4

    And when scripture says:  "It is he who sits above the circle of the earth, and its inhabitants are like grasshoppers; who stretches out the heavens like a curtain, and spreads them like a tent to dwell in" Is. 40:22

    And scripture says: Who coverest thyself with light as with a garment: who stretchest out the heavens like a curtain. - Psalms 104:2

    So when the literal sense of scripture denies pagan notion of outer space above earth, but tells us there's water above the dome, we better believe it.  And when it describes the heavens like a tent, which could never encompass a ball, but the literal sense would be the common notion of a tent, then we better believe it.  And when it says the heavens are stretched like a curtain, something also incompatible with a ball, then we better believe it.

    But again, I was not the first, or only Catholic to recognize that scripture is a flat earth book.  This is a fraction of the flat earth references in scripture.  And interestingly, NOT ONE scripture reference is reasonably compatible with a ball. 


    Offline happenby

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    Re: Did Catholics before the "Reformation" believe in FE?
    « Reply #146 on: November 29, 2017, 06:57:43 PM »
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  • Copernicus lived in the 15th century.  Catholics had believed in a spherical earth for many centuries before he was born.  Among them were St Albert the Great and St. Thomas Aquinas.

    St. Albert and St. Thomas neither taught or expounded on spherical earth.  Even if they were persuaded by the arguments of their day, they didn't teach it.  In fact, flat earth predates both because Enoch walked with God and described what he saw: a flat earth.  Moses was one of the greatest cosmographers of all time and was also a flat earther.  And as we see here, Anne Catherine Emmerich shows us that the devil was hard at work undermining Enoch and Moses and the words of scripture very early on.   

    •(Hom) was of a large stature like a giant, and of a very serious, peculiar turn of mind.  He wore a long robe, he was like a priest.  He used to go alone to the summit of the mountain and there spend night after night.  He observed the stars and practiced magic.  He was taught by the devil to arrange what he saw in vision into a science, a religion, and thereby he vitiated and counteracted the teaching of Enoch. The evil inclinations inherited from his mother mingled in him with the pure hereditary teachings of Enoch and Noe to which the children Thubal clung. Hom, by his false visions and revelations misinterpreted and changed the ancient truth. He studied and pondered and watched the stars and had visions which, by Satan's agency, showed him deformed images of truth. Through their resemblance to truth, his doctrine and idolatry became the mothers of heresy.   Page 48 The Life of Jesus Christ

    And from the year 550 Catholic Monk Cosmas Indiocopleustes:
    What then can be more absurd than the Pagan doctrine that the earth is in the middle of the universe? Here then the Pagans are at war with divine Scripture; but, not content with this, they are at war also with common sense itself and the very laws of nature, declaring, as they do, that the earth is a central sphere, and that there are Antipodes, who must be standing head-downward and on whom the rain must fall up. --Introduction, Christian Topography, Cosmas Indiocopleustes 550 AD


    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Did Catholics before the "Reformation" believe in FE?
    « Reply #147 on: November 29, 2017, 07:39:54 PM »
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  • I'm wondering how it didn't occur to you that I would take it as a term of disparagement when you said: Flat Earther who ignores Church teaching on how to understand Scripture.  
    As if being flat earth means I ignore teachings on how to understand scripture. I understood exactly what you were saying.
    In fact, in understanding scripture we find the literal sense was long ago underscored by St. Thomas Aquinas in his recognition that "all the senses are founded on one—the literal—from which alone can any argument be drawn, and not from those intended in allegory.”
    I am not sure what better term to use to express that you believe in a flat earth and you are ignoring the Church teaching on Scripture.  In Providentissimus Deus Pope Leo XIII wrote:

    Quote
    To understand how just is the rule here formulated we must remember, first, that the sacred writers, or to speak more accurately, the Holy Ghost "Who spoke by them, did not intend to teach men these things (that is to say, the essential nature of the things of the visible universe), things in no way profitable unto salvation."(53) Hence they did not seek to penetrate the secrets of nature, but rather described and dealt with things in more or less figurative language, or in terms which were commonly used at the time, and which in many instances are in daily use at this day, even by the most eminent men of science. Ordinary speech primarily and properly describes what comes under the senses; and somewhat in the same way the sacred writers-as the Angelic Doctor also reminds us - `went by what sensibly appeared,"(54) or put down what God, speaking to men, signified, in the way men could understand and were accustomed to.
    This encyclical is a magisterial teaching.  We do not get to ignore it because of something written by St. Thomas.  I have the greatest respect for him, but he does not replace the magisterial teaching that Scripture is not intended to teach matters of natural science.  You pay no attention at all to this teaching and write things like:

    So, when scripture says: And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. - Genesis 1:6   and
    Praise him, ye heavens of heavens, and ye waters that be above the heavens. - Psalms 148:4

    And when scripture says:  "It is he who sits above the circle of the earth, and its inhabitants are like grasshoppers; who stretches out the heavens like a curtain, and spreads them like a tent to dwell in" Is. 40:22

    And scripture says: Who coverest thyself with light as with a garment: who stretchest out the heavens like a curtain. - Psalms 104:2

    So when the literal sense of scripture denies pagan notion of outer space above earth, but tells us there's water above the dome, we better believe it.  And when it describes the heavens like a tent, which could never encompass a ball, but the literal sense would be the common notion of a tent, then we better believe it.  And when it says the heavens are stretched like a curtain, something also incompatible with a ball, then we better believe it.

    But again, I was not the first, or only Catholic to recognize that scripture is a flat earth book.  This is a fraction of the flat earth references in scripture.  And interestingly, NOT ONE scripture reference is reasonably compatible with a ball.  
    Any Catholic who thinks that Scripture is a flat earth book must be unaware of the teaching in Providentissimus Deus.  Here is the link so you can read it and think about it: http://w2.vatican.va/content/leo-xiii/en/encyclicals/docuмents/hf_l-xiii_enc_18111893_providentissimus-deus.html

    I see that you quoted Pius XII's Divino Afflante Spiritu to justify your literal interpretation of these passages.  You have badly misunderstood what was meant by his exhortation to "discern and define clearly that sense of the biblical words which is called literal."  It was written to commemorate the 50th anniversary of Providentissimus Deus and reiterates the teaching about not using Scripture for natural science:

    Quote
    This teaching, which Our Predecessor Leo XIII set forth with such solemnity, We also proclaim with Our authority and We urge all to adhere to it religiously. No less earnestly do We inculcate obedience at the present day to the counsels and exhortations which he, in his day, so wisely enjoined.
    I suggest that you read the entire encyclical since your misunderstanding may be due to lack of context: http://w2.vatican.va/content/pius-xii/en/encyclicals/docuмents/hf_p-xii_enc_30091943_divino-afflante-spiritu.html

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Did Catholics before the "Reformation" believe in FE?
    « Reply #148 on: November 29, 2017, 07:57:00 PM »
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  • St. Albert and St. Thomas neither taught or expounded on spherical earth.  
    St. Thomas obviously believed it and took it for granted that everyone else did.  There is no reason he would have been teaching about natural science since this was not his field.  It was, however, that of St. Albert.  I am unable to find an English translation of what St. Albert wrote but here it is in Latin:

    Quote
    Incipientes igiter breviter describere orbem, repetimus quae dicta sunt, quod omnes erant illi qui habitationem orbis rotundam esse contendunt. Et licet Aristoteles formaverit eam in circulo non fecit hoc ideo quod velit habitationem rotundam sed ut in ea signet quattuor puncta Orientis and Occidentis et Aquilonis et Meridiei.
    That looks to me like he is teaching a spherical earth but I am hoping that someone else will translate this so you won't have to rely on me.

    Offline happenby

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    Re: Did Catholics before the "Reformation" believe in FE?
    « Reply #149 on: November 29, 2017, 08:12:31 PM »
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  • St. Thomas obviously believed it and took it for granted that everyone else did.  There is no reason he would have been teaching about natural science since this was not his field.  It was, however, that of St. Albert.  I am unable to find an English translation of what St. Albert wrote but here it is in Latin:
    That looks to me like he is teaching a spherical earth but I am hoping that someone else will translate this so you won't have to rely on me.
    Even the Google translator shows St Thomas isn't saying earth was round but that people believed it was round. But besides that, I've provided many quotes yet you have not responded. I explained a lot of things, but you never addressed any of them with so much as a why or how. Then you send me this passing reference that doesn't apply. What do you have against flat earth? How can you learn what the Church is teaching if your so dead set against it? Shouldn't you delve a little deeper before making up your mind?