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Author Topic: Did Catholics before the "Reformation" believe in FE?  (Read 47317 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Did Catholics before the "Reformation" believe in FE?
« Reply #120 on: November 29, 2017, 11:29:26 AM »
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  • Catholics have been taught not to use Scripture to answer questions of science.  We use it as a guide to faith and morals.  Your approach to Scripture belongs to a Protestant Fundamentalist, not a Catholic.

    Well, sometimes there is overlap between faith and science.  So, for instance, the Church authorities who condemned heliocentrism did so based on the Bible and the Church Fathers.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Did Catholics before the "Reformation" believe in FE?
    « Reply #121 on: November 29, 2017, 11:30:48 AM »
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  • That's doesn't mean that I can't ask the question.

    Actually, I've been wondering for awhile as to why this forum member would use the name of "RoughAshlar," since it's basically a freemasonic term. I've been thinking of asking him why, and this seemed like a good time to do so.

    Maybe there's a reasonable explanation as to why he's using that name, though I can't really think of one.

    Right.  I said that it was a VALID question.  I too am a bit curious about his choice of screen name.


    Offline Meg

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    Re: Did Catholics before the "Reformation" believe in FE?
    « Reply #122 on: November 29, 2017, 11:33:53 AM »
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  • Right.  I said that it was a VALID question.  I too am a bit curious about his choice of screen name.

    Thank you. I appreciate that. I also appreciate that you are debating this subject in a reasonable manner. So many Catholics are extremely rude when debating this, when they disagree that the earth is flat. 

    I have to go and do a lot of errands today, so will check in on the thread later this evening. 
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Did Catholics before the "Reformation" believe in FE?
    « Reply #123 on: November 29, 2017, 11:41:59 AM »
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  •  Although one rebuttal of Flat Earth Theory holds that Freemasons have been the ones promoting Flat Earth.
    That is by far more plausible than Meg's postion.  Catholics reached a consensus on a spherical earth after the period of the Early Church Fathers. It was taught in Catholic universities and believed by all educated Catholics centuries before Freemasons came into being.

    The falsehood that Catholics believed in a flat earth, in contrast, began being spread around the time that Freemasons became influential.  One of key writings responsible for this myth was written by a known Freemason.

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Did Catholics before the "Reformation" believe in FE?
    « Reply #124 on: November 29, 2017, 11:51:21 AM »
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  • Well, sometimes there is overlap between faith and science.  So, for instance, the Church authorities who condemned heliocentrism did so based on the Bible and the Church Fathers.
    When this overlap happens, we follow the guidance of Church authorities.  Catholics should not be trying to answer questions of science (or anything else really) by their own personal interpretations of Scripture.  And that is exactly what some Flat Earthers are doing.

    There may be a case for geocentrism, but the Flat Earth position as proposed by some here is in violation of the Catholic approach to Scripture.  It is ironic to see them condemning others as heretics and blasphemers, when they are the ones going against Church teaching on Scripture.


    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Did Catholics before the "Reformation" believe in FE?
    « Reply #125 on: November 29, 2017, 12:10:45 PM »
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  • Freemasonic globe earthers have no place in the Catholic church. Baal (globe worship/belief) is Satanism.

    Here is a non-exhaustive list of historic people who wrote in support of a spherical earth, most of whom were Catholic.
    Quote
    Late Antiquity
    Ampelius, Chalcidius, Macrobius, Martianus Capella, Basil of Caesarea, Ambrose of Milan, Aurelius Augustinus, Paulus Orosius, Jordanes, Cassiodorus, Boethius, Visigoth king Sisebut

    Early Middle Ages
    Isidore of Seville, Beda Venerabilis, Theodulf of Orléans, Vergilius of Salzburg, Irish monk Dicuil, Rabanus Maurus, King Alfred of England, Remigius of Auxerre, Johannes Scotus Eriugena, Leo of Naples (in German), Gerbert d’Aurillac (Pope Sylvester II).

    High Middle Ages

    Notker the German of Sankt-Gallen, Hermann of Reichenau, Hildegard von Bingen, Petrus Abaelardus, Honorius Augustodunensis, Gautier de Metz, Adam of Bremen, Albertus Magnus, Thomas Aquinas, Berthold of Regensburg, Guillaume de Conches, Philippe de Thaon (in French), Abu-Idrisi, Bernardus Silvestris, Petrus Comestor, Thierry de Chartres, Gautier de Châtillon, Alexander Neckam, Alain de Lille, Averroes, Snorri Sturluson, Moshe ben Maimon, Lambert of Saint-Omer, Gervasius of Tilbury, Robert Grosseteste, Johannes de Sacrobosco, Thomas de Cantimpré, Peire de Corbian, Vincent de Beauvais, Robertus Anglicus, Juan Gil de Zámora (in Spanish), Ristoro d'Arezzo, Roger Bacon, Jean de Meung, Brunetto Latini, Alfonso X of Castile.

    Late Middle Ages

    Marco Polo, Dante Alighieri, Meister Eckhart, Enea Silvio Piccolomini (Pope Pius II), Perot de Garbalei (divisiones mundi), Cecco d'Ascoli, Fazio degli Uberti (in Italian), Levi ben Gershon, Konrad of Megenberg, Nicole Oresme, Petrus Aliacensis, Alfonso de la Torre (in German), Toscanelli, Brochard the German (in German), Jean de Mandeville, Christine de Pizan, Geoffrey Chaucer, William Caxton, Martin Behaim, Christopher Columbus.

    Assuming that Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ began in the 18th century, all of these people lived before it.  Do you really want to say that none of them have a place in the Church and that they all practised Satanism?

    Offline Truth is Eternal

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    Re: Did Catholics before the "Reformation" believe in FE?
    « Reply #126 on: November 29, 2017, 12:55:20 PM »
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  • Offline RoughAshlar

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    Re: Did Catholics before the "Reformation" believe in FE?
    « Reply #127 on: November 29, 2017, 01:05:33 PM »
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  • Meg, 

    It is a valid question and well spotted.  I have never tried to hide it, and have been honest with anyone who asked.  You were the first one to openly ask on the forum and not through private message.  Its amazing to me though people knew, no one said outed me sooner.

    A rough ashlar is an imperfect stone, just as we are imperfect and tainted though original sin. It a philosophical concept that as you progress though life, you try to constantly work at it through the grace of God and try to rid yourself of your imperfections and vices.

    Long story short, I was in tradition for decades and saw the rise and fall of the SSPX.  I became conflicted with numerous things and drifted away from the Church. My family, also in tradition has spread from the NO to SSPX to Boston, KY.  I left all together, but still come here to check on the status and happenings with in the resistance. 

    There are many fake, false, and erroneous things on the internet.  Its much like the things said about Trump, it doesn't have to be true to be used against him.  I wish to clarify a few things from this thread:

    1) Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ does not have a position on Flat Earth and Globe Earth no matter what you read on the internet.  No one person speaks for Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ and I'm sure there are people on both sides of the isle on this topic.  I personally believe that the earth is a globe.  There is no Flat Sun, Flat Moon, Flat Mars, Flat Comet, Flat Asteroid Society...everyone seems fine with those being globular, I don't see the harm in believing that the earth might be a globe too.  I enjoy the debate...I do not enjoy Truth is Eternals extremism posing as Catholicism.

    2) Lodges to not specifically revere Fr. Copernicus or Galileo.  They respect and honor the study of Astronomy, Geometry, Arithmetic, Music, Logic, Rhetoric and Grammar.  If there is any mention of these two men it was because they further advanced scientific discovery.

    3)  You give Freemason's way too much credit.   They are too busy with trying to coordinate the fish fry, pancake breakfast, and fundraisers to try to take over the world.  There might be organizations of the rich and powerful controlling the world, but its not the masons any more if it ever was.

    4) The oldest surviving globe is by Martin Behaim .  This is many years before the start of Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ.  "During his visit to his native home in Nuremberg, in collaboration with the painter Georg Glockendon, Martin Behaim constructed his familiar terrestrial globe between 1491 and 1493, one of two globes, which he called the Erdapfel (literally, the earth apple). It conforms to an idea of a globe envisioned in 1475 by Pope Sixtus IV, but has the added improvements of meridians and an equatorial line."

    5) I'll ask again. 
    Is there one traditional Catholic priest in the world that preaches flat earth is necessary for salvation? Is there any priest/religious/visionary/doctor/pope anybody alive or dead that said that have said that believing that the earth is a globe is Satanism?  I don't remember that blasphemy being an unforgivable sin in my Catechism.  In the dozen encyclicals over the last 200+ years that spoke against Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ, was there a single one that said that the globe was a masonic deception?

    Take Care and God Bless,



    Offline happenby

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    Re: Did Catholics before the "Reformation" believe in FE?
    « Reply #128 on: November 29, 2017, 01:06:57 PM »
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  • Until someone can explain to me how this is a question of faith, this is just useless bickering.  It's a scientific question.  At least with Geocentrism, there were passages in the Bible that could be construed as supporting it.  In fact, I am a Geocentrist.  And there's certainly a pernicious side to Heliocentrism, an attempt to dethrone human beings as the pinnacle of creation and also to cast doubt upon creation itself.  But I don't see it with flat earth.
    Fascinating that there are those who say earth is geocentric but not flat. What makes you believe earth is round? What proof do you have?

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Did Catholics before the "Reformation" believe in FE?
    « Reply #129 on: November 29, 2017, 01:15:09 PM »
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  •  What makes you believe earth is round? What proof do you have?
    Here is a video explaining what my husband was telling me about the horizon proves that the earth is a globe:


    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Did Catholics before the "Reformation" believe in FE?
    « Reply #130 on: November 29, 2017, 01:20:43 PM »
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  • Jaynek,

    You might also find useful a thread in the Library section I started a while ago called Church Fathers Did Not Condemn Globe Earth. The first and last quotes are particularly good for refuting those who try to prove the shape of the Earth and Creation using the Fathers and Holy Scripture, and claim Catholics are heretics for disbelieving in the flat Earth theory because they claim it's Dogma.

    AES
    Thank you for this.  I especially liked the St Basil one at the end:
    Quote
    It is this which those seem to me not to have understood, who, giving themselves up to the distorted meaning of allegory, have undertaken to give a majesty of their own invention to Scripture. It is to believe themselves wiser than the Holy Spirit, and to bring forth their own ideas under a pretext of exegesis. Let us hear Scripture as it has been written.”
    I could see how it was echoed in Providentissimus Deus.  It just shows how deeply rooted Pope Leo XIII's teaching on Scripture was rooted in the tradition of the Church.


    Offline Truth is Eternal

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    Re: Did Catholics before the "Reformation" believe in FE?
    « Reply #131 on: November 29, 2017, 01:26:28 PM »
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  • Here is a video explaining what my husband was telling me about the horizon proves that the earth is a globe:



    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Did Catholics before the "Reformation" believe in FE?
    « Reply #132 on: November 29, 2017, 01:53:57 PM »
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  • Fascinating that there are those who say earth is geocentric but not flat. What makes you believe earth is round? What proof do you have?

    Well, it's the universe that's geocentric.  I believe that all the observations and the math make more sense for a spherical earth ... though I continue to examine evidence.  I'd prefer not to go into a 10-page post here discussing the entire subject.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Did Catholics before the "Reformation" believe in FE?
    « Reply #133 on: November 29, 2017, 02:06:56 PM »
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  • Not bad.  But I think that some of the math might be wrong.  I don't have time to analyze it right now.  Midnight sun could be explained by a certain degree of tilt.  And I'm still not sure how you can have 24 hours of daylight in Antarctica.  And what of the Coriolis effect?

    Offline happenby

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    Re: Did Catholics before the "Reformation" believe in FE?
    « Reply #134 on: November 29, 2017, 03:12:04 PM »
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  • Well, it's the universe that's geocentric.  I believe that all the observations and the math make more sense for a spherical earth ... though I continue to examine evidence.  I'd prefer not to go into a 10-page post here discussing the entire subject.
    The universe cannot be geo.  Geo refers to earth.  Geocentric means earth centered, so the universe has little to do with the term except that it means the sun and stars move, not the earth. You asked earlier: But how does the possibility of the earth being a sphere undermine God as creator?  Someone had to create the sphere.  I don't get it.  Geocentrism I can see.  Flat Earth vs. Sphere?  I don't see the philosophical ramifications of it.  So long as this sphere is at the center of God's creation, what does it matter?
    Firstly, it matters in one sense because modern pagan science teaches in every classroom around the world a heliocentric moving earth ball to the exclusion of flat stationary earth.  You say you believe earth is geocentric not heliocentric. So moderns are lying about stationary sun and moving earth, at least. You are at odds with both modern science and empirical proofs of flat earth.  Not that that is a bad thing in and of itself as you study, but the truth is, there is a serious discrepancy here. Why? Because something pretty huge is at stake, or they wouldn't insist on their cosmology in defiance of the Decrees of the Holy Office in 1633.  Heliocentrism denies both the Church and scripture according to St. Robert Bellarmine (along with the decrees of the Church). Further, there are concrete facts that Geocentrism has always been intrinsically tied to flat earth. (More later) The dangling geocentric ball theory is relatively new but remains in direct contradiction to scripture. But for our purposes here, round earth has everything to do with why people talk in circles... literally.  In the relative world of modern pagan thinking, words like 'horizon', for instance, have no connection with being horizontal. On a ball earth horizon means curve.  If we live on a ball, the word up doesn't mean up, as above, but it means out toward space in every direction... including down.  In other words, people live in contradiction to what is, by what they believe to be true...and that is based on their relative thinking, produced by their living on a ball.  Relativity is the antithesis of specific. You CAN'T stand on relativity. People cannot be specific because their very world is relative in every way. They cannot reason because their world is chaotic in every way.  According to modern science, earth moves 4 different directions at breakneck speed.  And we believe them when they tell us its a ball? Why? Their foundation moves.  Think about that.  Its an oxymoron.  There is more to know about flat geocentric earth.