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Author Topic: Did Catholics before the "Reformation" believe in FE?  (Read 13073 times)

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Offline happenby

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Re: Did Catholics before the "Reformation" believe in FE?
« Reply #285 on: December 05, 2017, 03:14:10 PM »
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  • Wikipedia:
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    The myth of the flat Earth is the modern misconception that the prevailing cosmological view during the Middle Ages in Europe was that the Earth is flat, instead of spherical.[1][2]
    .
    During the early Middle Ages, virtually all scholars maintained the spherical viewpoint first expressed by the Ancient Greeks. From at least the 14th century, belief in a flat Earth among the educated was almost nonexistent, despite fanciful depictions in art, such as the exterior of Hieronymus Bosch's famous triptych The Garden of Earthly Delights, in which a disc-shaped Earth is shown floating inside a transparent sphere.[3]
    .
    According to Stephen Jay Gould, "there never was a period of 'flat Earth darkness' among scholars (regardless of how the public at large may have conceptualized our planet both then and now). Greek knowledge of sphericity never faded, and all major medieval scholars accepted the Earth's roundness as an established fact of cosmology."[4] Historians of science David Lindberg and Ronald Numbers point out that "there was scarcely a Christian scholar of the Middle Ages who did not acknowledge [Earth's] sphericity and even know its approximate circuмference".[5]
    .
    Historian Jeffrey Burton Russell says the flat-Earth error flourished most between 1870 and 1920, and had to do with the ideological setting created by struggles over biological evolution. Russell claims "with extraordinary few exceptions no educated person in the history of Western Civilization from the third century B.C. onward believed that the Earth was flat", and ascribes popularization of the flat-Earth myth to histories by John William Draper, Andrew Dickson White, and Washington Irving.[6][7][2]
    .
    History
    In Inventing the Flat Earth: Columbus and Modern Historians, Jeffrey Russell describes the Flat Earth theory as a fable used to impugn pre-modern civilization and creationism.[6][2]
    James Hannam wrote:Early modern period
    French dramatist Cyrano de Bergerac in chapter 5 of his Comical History of the States and Empires of the Moon (published 2 years posthumously in 1657) quotes St. Augustine as saying "that in his day and age the Earth was as flat as a stove lid and that it floated on water like half of a sliced orange."[9] Robert Burton, in his The Anatomy of Melancholy[10]wrote:Thus, there is evidence that accusations of Flatearthism, though somewhat whimsical (Burton ends his digression with a legitimate quotation of St. Augustine: "Better doubt of things concealed, than to contend about uncertainties, where Abraham's bosom is, and hell fire"[10]) were used to discredit opposing authorities several centuries before the 19th. Another early mention in literature is Ludvig Holberg's comedy Erasmus Montanus (1723). Erasmus Montanus meets considerable opposition when he claims the Earth is round, since all the peasants hold it to be flat. He is not allowed to marry his fiancée until he cries "The earth is flat as a pancake". In Thomas Jefferson's book Notes on the State of Virginia (1784), framed as answers to a series of questions (queries), Jefferson uses the "Query" regarding religion to attack the idea of state-sponsored official religions. In the chapter, Jefferson relates a series of official erroneous beliefs about nature forced upon people by authority. One of these is the episode of Galileo's struggles with authority, which Jefferson erroneously frames in terms of the shape of the globe:[11]19th century
    The 19th century was a period in which the perception of an antagonism between religion and science was especially strong. The disputes surrounding the Darwinian revolutioncontributed to the birth of the conflict thesis,[4] a view of history according to which any interaction between religion and science would almost inevitably lead to open hostility, with religion usually taking the part of the aggressor against new scientific ideas.[12]
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    Irving's biography of Columbus
    In 1828, Washington Irving's highly romanticised biography, A History of the Life and Voyages of Christopher Columbus,[13] was published and mistaken by many for a scholarly work.[14] In Book II, Chapter IV of this biography, Irving gave a largely fictional account of the meetings of a commission established by the Spanish sovereigns to examine Columbus's proposals. One of his more fanciful embellishments was a highly unlikely tale that the more ignorant and bigoted members on the commission had raised scriptural objections to Columbus's assertions that the Earth was spherical.[15]
    .
    The issue in the 1490s was not the shape of the Earth, but its size, and the position of the east coast of Asia, as Irving in fact points out. Historical estimates from Ptolemy onwards placed the coast of Asia about 180° east of the Canary Islands.[16] Columbus adopted an earlier (and rejected) distance of 225°, added 28° (based on Marco Polo's travels), and then placed Japan another 30° further east. Starting from Cape St. Vincent in Portugal, Columbus made Eurasia stretch 283° to the east, leaving the Atlantic as only 77° wide. Since he planned to leave from the Canaries (9° further west), his trip to Japan would only have to cover 68° of longitude.[17][18]
    .
    Columbus mistakenly assumed that the mile referred to in the Arabic estimate of 56⅔ miles for the size of a degree was the same as the actually much shorter Italian mile of 1,480 metres (0.92 mi). His estimate for the size of the degree and for the circuмference of the Earth was therefore about 25% too small.[19] The combined effect of these mistakes was that Columbus estimated the distance to Japan to be only about 5,000 km (or only to the eastern edge of the Caribbean) while the true figure is about 20,000 km. The Spanish scholars may not have known the exact distance to the east coast of Asia, but they believed that it was significantly further than Columbus's projection; and this was the basis of the criticism in Spain and Portugal, whether academic or amongst mariners, of the proposed voyage.
    .
    The disputed point was not the shape of the Earth, nor the idea that going west would eventually lead to Japan and China, but the ability of European ships to sail that far across open seas. The small ships of the day (Columbus's three ships varied between 20.5 and 23.5 m – or 67 to 77 feet – in length and carried about 90 men) simply could not carry enough food and water to reach Japan. The ships barely reached the eastern Caribbean islands. Already the crews were mutinous, not because of some fear of "sailing off the edge", but because they were running out of food and water with no chance of any new supplies within sailing distance. They were on the edge of starvation.[20] What saved Columbus was the unknown existence of the Americas precisely at the point he thought he would reach Japan. His ability to resupply with food and water from the Caribbean islands allowed him to return safely to Europe. Otherwise his crews would have died, and the ships foundered.
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    Advocates for science
    In 1834, a few years after the publication of Irving's book, Jean Antoine Letronne, a French academic of strong antireligious ideas, misrepresented the church fathers and their medieval successors as believing in a flat earth in his On the Cosmographical Ideas of the Church Fathers.[2][21] Then in 1837, the English philosopher of science William Whewell, in his History of the Inductive Sciences, identified Lactantius, author of Institutiones Divinae (c. 310), and Cosmas Indicopleustes, author of Christian Topography (c. 548 ), as evidence of a medieval belief in a Flat Earth. Lactantius had been ridiculed much earlier by Copernicus in De revolutionibus of 1543 as someone who "Speaks quite childishly about the Earth's shape, when he mocks those who declared that the Earth has the form of a globe".
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    Other historians quickly followed Whewell, although they could identify few other examples.[22] The American chemist John William Draper wrote a History of the Conflict between Religion and Science (1874), employing the claim that the early Church fathers thought the Earth was flat as evidence of the hostility of the Church to the advancement of science.[23]The story of widespread religious belief in the flat Earth was repeated by Andrew Dickson White in his 1876 The Warfare of Science[24] and elaborated twenty years later in his two-volume History of the Warfare of Science with Theology in Christendom, which exaggerated the number and significance of medieval flat Earthers to support White's model of warfare between dogmatic theology and scientific progress.[25] As Draper and White's metaphor of ongoing warfare between the scientific progress of the Enlightenment and the religious obscurantism of the "Dark Ages" became widely accepted, it spread the idea of medieval belief in the flat Earth.[26]
    .
    The widely circulated engraving of a man poking his head through the firmament surrounding the Earth to view the Empyrean, executed in the style of the 16th century, was published in Camille Flammarion's L'Atmosphère: Météorologie Populaire (Paris, 1888, p. 163).[27] The engraving illustrates the statement in the text that a medieval missionary claimed that "he reached the horizon where the Earth and the heavens met". In its original form, the engraving included a decorative border that places it in the 19th century. In later publications, some of which claimed that the engraving dates to the 16th century, the border was removed.
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    20th century and onward



    Front Cover of Daniel Boorstin's The Discoverers (1983), bearing a copy of the Flammarion engraving

    Since the early 20th century, a number of books and articles have docuмented the flat earth error as one of a number of widespread misconceptions in popular views of the Middle Ages. Both E. M. W. Tillyard's book The Elizabethan World Picture and C. S. Lewis' The Discarded Image are devoted to a broad survey of how the universe was viewed in Renaissance and medieval times, and both extensively discuss how the educated classes knew the world was round. Lewis draws attention to the fact that in Dante's The Divine Comedy about an epic voyage through hell, purgatory, and heaven, the earth is spherical with gravity being towards the center of the earth. As the Devil is frozen in a block of ice in the center of the earth, Dante and Virgil climb down the Devil's torso, but up from the Devil's waist to his feet, as his waist is at the center of the earth.
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    Jeffrey Burton Russell rebutted the prevalence of belief in the flat Earth in a monograph[6] and two papers.[7][2] Louise Bishop states that virtually every thinker and writer of the 1000-year medieval period affirmed the spherical shape of the Earth.[28]
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    Although the misconception was frequently refuted in historical scholarship since at least 1920, it persisted in popular culture and in some school textbooks into the 21st century. An American schoolbook by Emma Miller Bolenius published in 1919 has this introduction to the suggested reading for Columbus Day (12 October):Previous editions of Thomas Bailey's The American Pageant stated that "The superstitious sailors [of Columbus's crew] ... grew increasingly mutinous ... because they were fearful of sailing over the edge of the world"; however, no such historical account is known.[30]
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    A 2009 survey of schoolbooks from Austria and Germany showed that the Flat Earth myth became dominant in the second half of the 20th century and persists in most historical textbooks for German and Austrian schools.[31]
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    As recently as 1983 Daniel Boorstin published a historical survey, The Discoverers, which presented the Flammarion engraving on its cover and proclaimed that "from AD 300 to at least 1300 ... Christian faith and dogma suppressed the useful image of the world that had been so ... scrupulously drawn by ancient geographers."[32] Boorstin dedicated a chapter to the flat earth, in which he portrayed Cosmas Indicopleustes as the founder of Christian geography.[33] The flat earth model has often been incorrectly supposed to be church doctrine by those who wish to portray the Catholic Church as being anti-progress or hostile to scientific inquiry. This narrative has been repeated even in academic circles, such as in April 2016, when Boston College theology professor and ex-priest Thomas Groome erroneously stated that "the Catholic Church never said the earth is round, but just stopped saying it was flat."[34]
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    The 1937 popular song They All Laughed contains the couplet "They all laughed at Christopher Columbus/When he said the world was round". In the Warner Bros. Merrie Melodiescartoon Hare We Go (1951) Christopher Columbus and Ferdinand the Catholic quarrel about the shape of the Earth; the king states the Earth is flat. In Walt Disney's 1963 animation The Sword in the Stone, wizard Merlin (who has traveled into the future) explains to a young Arthur that "man will discover in centuries to come" that the Earth is round, and rotates.
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    This is like posting the main stream media news for consumption as if it were true.  There is so much wrong with this article historically and factually, I haven't the time to fully tear it apart. That this piece dares to characterize Columbus' crew as superstitious and on the verge of mutiny is utterly false. Many of his men were self-sacrificing Catholics who prayed continuously to Our Lady throughout their journeys. And really, who cares what Louise Bishop or Jeffrey Burton Russel thinks? Rest assured, the modern world does not want anyone to know what the truth is, and this reflects that perfectly.


    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: Did Catholics before the "Reformation" believe in FE?
    « Reply #286 on: December 05, 2017, 03:14:36 PM »
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  • .
    The Old Library of the University of Salamanca, founded A.D. 1134
    Antoine Taveneaux - Own work
    .
    That's a long time ago to have a globe earth model on display.

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    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: Did Catholics before the "Reformation" believe in FE?
    « Reply #287 on: December 05, 2017, 03:26:11 PM »
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  • This is like posting the main stream media news for consumption as if it were true.  There is so much wrong with this article historically and factually, I haven't the time to fully tear it apart. That this piece dares to characterize Columbus' crew as superstitious and on the verge of mutiny is utterly false. Many of his men were self-sacrificing Catholics who prayed continuously to Our Lady throughout their journeys. And really, who cares what Louise Bishop or Jeffrey Burton Russel thinks? Rest assured, the modern world does not want anyone to know what the truth is, and this reflects that perfectly.
    .
    So you didn't read the article. You skimmed it for something you could complain about and you now ignore the context.
    .
    It does not say that Columbus' men were superstitious and on the verge of munitny. It merely reports that some authors were writing books and articles that said this. It says, "An American schoolbook by Emma Miller Bolenius published in 1919 has this introduction to the suggested reading for Columbus Day (12 October):" followed by the schoolbook in question's depiction of his crew as superstitious.
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    Louise Bishop and Jeffery Burton Russel are mentioned for the historical fact of their work, not because their versions were accurate or reliable. They existed.
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    And meanwhile, the flat earth does not exist, and the globe earth does. But I guess you don't like that fact either.
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    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: Did Catholics before the "Reformation" believe in FE?
    « Reply #288 on: December 05, 2017, 03:36:05 PM »
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    Wikipedia makes no mention of the fact that the original log books of Columbus' maiden voyage were in two editions. He kept one log book for the men's use, which contained an inaccurate distance computation. He kept a separate log book that contained the authentic distance they had traveled, which was 3 times as far as what the men's log book showed. Columbus did this so that the men would not become distressed at how far they were from home. He did it to keep the peace on his ship.
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    Offline RoughAshlar

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    Re: Did Catholics before the "Reformation" believe in FE?
    « Reply #289 on: December 05, 2017, 03:42:09 PM »
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  • I've looked at the results of the Hungarian (Lake Balaton laser) experiment and it appears to be rather convincing ... unless it was completely hoaxed.
    https://www.metabunk.org/lake-balaton-laser-experiment-to-determine-the-curvature-of-the-earth-if-any.t7780/page-19#post-190631

    Talks about it and people have taken it apart.  It also has a graph that shows the different distances and drops with the lasers.


    Offline Meg

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    Re: Did Catholics before the "Reformation" believe in FE?
    « Reply #290 on: December 05, 2017, 04:24:53 PM »
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  •  
    Historian Jeffrey Burton Russell says the flat-Earth error flourished most between 1870 and 1920, and had to do with the ideological setting created by struggles over biological evolution. Russell claims "with extraordinary few exceptions no educated person in the history of Western Civilization from the third century B.C. onward believed that the Earth was flat", and ascribes popularization of the flat-Earth myth to histories by John William Draper, Andrew Dickson White, and Washington Irving.[6][7][2]


    Jeffrey Burton Russell rebutted the prevalence of belief in the flat Earth in a monograph[6] and two papers.[7][2] Louise Bishop states that virtually every thinker and writer of the 1000-year medieval period affirmed the spherical shape of the Earth.[28]

    I found a video interview by Jeffrey Burton Russell, in which he describes the medieval concept of heaven and earth. 

    He gives his own view of how we get to Heaven:

    "How do you get there [to heaven]? By following a life of love, and gratitude and generosity and loyalty in this world. And you character is therefore opened up to God..[...]."

    My take on his view: He evidently isn't Catholic. So of course his views on the medieval world might be somewhat distorted. He then goes on to discuss where heaven is located:
    -------
    "In Hebrew thought, and in Christian thought, and in Muslim thought, there is an up and down. That is to say, the idea was, and up until the 1600's or 1700's, the idea was quite literal that you went UP to heaven, whether by a ladder, or though spheres or whatever; you went up - God was way up there."

    My take on his view: It's interesting that he says the idea in the 15th and 16th century was that you went "up." He seems to convey that this is no longer the prevalent view. In which way do we go, then, if not "up?" 
    I suppose on a globe earth, humans would have to go sideways? Or does he mean to say that heaven is just all around us? It's often difficult to tell with Protestants. They usually worry that they will be considered politically incorrect, or misjudged. 
    -------
    Here's the video. Hopefully the link will work. It's a short video, thankfully:


    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: Did Catholics before the "Reformation" believe in FE?
    « Reply #291 on: December 05, 2017, 04:44:54 PM »
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  • .
    More Wikipedia -- from article on Cristóbal Colón, or Christoforo Colombo, or Christophorus Columbus, the latter of which is the Latin form from which the Anglicized Christopher Columbus is derived. They don't provide the Portuguese version, unfortunately, but they do mention that some authors in the past have claimed he had been born in Portugal. After all, when he was looking for financial support for his voyage his first attempt was to the King and Queen of Portugal, who refused him.
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    Geographical considerations
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    Washington Irving's 1828 biography of Columbus popularized the idea that Columbus had difficulty obtaining support for his plan because many Catholic theologians insisted that the Earth was flat.[31] In fact, nearly all educated Westerners had understood, at least since the time of Aristotle, that the Earth is spherical.[32][30] The sphericity of the Earth is also accounted for in the work of Ptolemy, on which medieval astronomy was largely based. Christian writers whose works clearly reflect the conviction that the Earth is spherical include Saint Bede the Venerable in his Reckoning of Time, written around AD 723. In Columbus's time, the techniques of celestial navigation, which use the position of the sun and the stars in the sky, together with the understanding that the Earth is a sphere, had long been in use by astronomers and were beginning to be implemented by mariners.[33]
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    As far back as the 3rd century BCEratosthenes had correctly computed the circuмference of the Earth by using simple geometry and studying the shadows cast by objects at two different locations: Alexandria and Syene (modern-day Aswan).[34] Eratosthenes's results were confirmed by a comparison of stellar observations at Alexandria and Rhodes, carried out by Posidonius in the 1st century BC. These measurements were widely known among scholars, but confusion about the old-fashioned units of distance in which they were expressed had led, in Columbus's day, to some debate about the exact size of the Earth.
    .




    Toscanelli's notions of the geography of the Atlantic Ocean 
    (shown superimposed on a modern map), 
    which directly influenced Columbus' plans.

    From d'Ailly's Imago Mundi Columbus learned of Alfraganus' estimate that a degree of latitude (or a degree of longitude along the equator) spanned 56⅔ miles, but did not realize that this was expressed in the Arabic mile rather than the shorter Roman mile with which he was familiar (1,480 m).[35] He therefore estimated the circuмference of the Earth to be about 30,200 km, whereas the correct value is 40,000 km (25,000 mi).

    .

    Flat Earth mythology
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    Columbus is often credited with refuting a prevalent belief in a flat Earth. However, this legacy is a popular misconception. To the contrary, the spherical shape of the Earth had been known to scholars since antiquity, and was common knowledge among sailors. Coincidentally, the oldest surviving globe of the Earth, the Erdapfel, was made in 1492 just before Columbus' return to Europe. As such it contains no sign of the Americas and yet demonstrates the common belief in a spherical Earth.[106]


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    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: Did Catholics before the "Reformation" believe in FE?
    « Reply #292 on: December 05, 2017, 05:05:48 PM »
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  • My take on his view: He evidently isn't Catholic. So of course his views on the medieval world might be somewhat distorted. He then goes on to discuss where heaven is located:
    -------
    "In Hebrew thought, and in Christian thought, and in Muslim thought, there is an up and down. That is to say, the idea was, and up until the 1600's or 1700's, the idea was quite literal that you went UP to heaven, whether by a ladder, or though spheres or whatever; you went up - God was way up there."

    My take on his view: It's interesting that he says the idea in the 15th and 16th century was that you went "up." He seems to convey that this is no longer the prevalent view. In which way do we go, then, if not "up?"

    I suppose on a globe earth, humans would have to go sideways? Or does he mean to say that heaven is just all around us? It's often difficult to tell with Protestants. They usually worry that they will be considered politically incorrect, or misjudged.

    .
    Perhaps you would be delighted to know that in Dante's Inferno (from Divine Comedy, A.D. 1320), they climb down to the center of the earth where the devil is found frozen in a huge block of ice. Then proceeding "downward" they pass the devil's waist but from there even though continuing in the same direction toward the devil's feet they nonetheless are climbing upward:
    .
    In Dante's The Divine Comedy about an epic voyage through hell, purgatory, and heaven, the earth is spherical with gravity being towards the center of the earth. As the Devil is frozen in a block of ice in the center of the earth, Dante and Virgil climb down the Devil's torso, but up from the Devil's waist to his feet, as his waist is at the center of the earth.
    .
    So, there is a very popular Catholic author in the 14th century, 170 years before Columbus' time, widely read, universally accepted, often quoted, and representing widespread common beliefs in the Catholic world, saying that the spherical earth has gravity drawing all matter towards its center, and from which center proceeding in all directions is "up," and from all other points toward the center of the earth is "down."
    .
    Catholics have had NO PROBLEM with this concept for the past 7 centuries. What is YOUR problem?
    .
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    Offline Meg

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    Re: Did Catholics before the "Reformation" believe in FE?
    « Reply #293 on: December 05, 2017, 05:10:01 PM »
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  • Advocates for science
    In 1834, a few years after the publication of Irving's book, Jean Antoine Letronne, a French academic of strong antireligious ideas, misrepresented the church fathers and their medieval successors as believing in a flat earth in his On the Cosmographical Ideas of the Church Fathers.[2][21] Then in 1837, the English philosopher of science William Whewell, in his History of the Inductive Sciences, identified Lactantius, author of Institutiones Divinae (c. 310), and Cosmas Indicopleustes, author of Christian Topography (c. 548 ), as evidence of a medieval belief in a Flat Earth. Lactantius had been ridiculed much earlier by Copernicus in De revolutionibus of 1543 as someone who "Speaks quite childishly about the Earth's shape, when he mocks those who declared that the Earth has the form of a globe".





    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Did Catholics before the "Reformation" believe in FE?
    « Reply #294 on: December 05, 2017, 05:10:23 PM »
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  • https://www.metabunk.org/lake-balaton-laser-experiment-to-determine-the-curvature-of-the-earth-if-any.t7780/page-19#post-190631

    Talks about it and people have taken it apart.  It also has a graph that shows the different distances and drops with the lasers.
     
    I saw the Balaton video and the laser was most certainly not pointed down ... as this blog claims.  They took measurements every few dozen yards and the beam for the first three measurements was within one centimeter ... which proved that the laser was level with the water.  Unless the video was hoaxed (which you can't rule out), what I saw ... if true ... was extremely convincing.

    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: Did Catholics before the "Reformation" believe in FE?
    « Reply #295 on: December 05, 2017, 11:54:18 PM »
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  • .
    Perhaps you would be delighted to know that in Dante's Inferno (from Divine Comedy, A.D. 1320), they climb down to the center of the earth where the devil is found frozen in a huge block of ice. Then proceeding "downward" they pass the devil's waist but from there even though continuing in the same direction toward the devil's feet they nonetheless are climbing upward:
    .
    In Dante's The Divine Comedy about an epic voyage through hell, purgatory, and heaven, the earth is spherical with gravity being towards the center of the earth. As the Devil is frozen in a block of ice in the center of the earth, Dante and Virgil climb down the Devil's torso, but up from the Devil's waist to his feet, as his waist is at the center of the earth.
    .
    So, there is a very popular Catholic author in the 14th century, 170 years before Columbus' time, widely read, universally accepted, often quoted, and representing widespread common beliefs in the Catholic world, saying that the spherical earth has gravity drawing all matter towards its center, and from which center proceeding in all directions is "up," and from all other points toward the center of the earth is "down."
    .
    Catholics have had NO PROBLEM with this concept for the past 7 centuries. What is YOUR problem?
    .
    .
    .
    I forgot to mention, for clarity's sake that by today's understanding as Dante and Virgil climbed down to the devil's frozen waist their weight (not mass but weight) would have grown progressively less, until such time as they reached the devil's waist at the center of the earth, when they would have been in a weightless environment, similar to that experienced in the ISS or during free-fall high above the earth's surface (inside an aircraft for example). Then, as they proceeded on toward the frozen devil's feet, their weight would have gradually increased pulling them in the opposite direction than previously, while they proceeded away from the frozen devil's waist and toward his feet, which was therefore the new up direction. This changing of direction (down becomes up and up becomes down as they pass the earth's center of mass or center of gravity) by our current understanding, is no different than in Dante's work, but the sensation of changing weight was missing in the 14th century. That is because in those days the concept of weight compared to mass was not understood as well as it is today.
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    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: Did Catholics before the "Reformation" believe in FE?
    « Reply #296 on: December 06, 2017, 12:56:58 AM »
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  • I saw the Balaton video and the laser was most certainly not pointed down ... as this blog claims.  They took measurements every few dozen yards and the beam for the first three measurements was within one centimeter ... which proved that the laser was level with the water.  Unless the video was hoaxed (which you can't rule out), what I saw ... if true ... was extremely convincing.
    .
    You did not read far enough in the metabunk forum. A few posts accused them of not having a level laser. BTW a few dozen meters with one centimeter's error (or even one millimeter!) would not ensure a level instrument for projection across several kilometers. They would have needed to establish less than one millimeter variation over 300 meters, by checking in opposite directions, before they would have reasonable assurance of an adequately level laser. Then their accuracy would have been within 3 millimeters in one kilometer or 6 in two or 9 millimeters in three kilometers.
    .
    Be that as it may, the ultimate accusation on the metabunk site is in regards to the distortion that occurs over such surfaces as bodies of water, especially when there is an inversion layer (warm air on top of cold air). The cold air is commonly found lying over the surface of water, and a warm layer of air is not infrequently found above the cold layer. They explain that differences in air density causes the bending of light, just as it does when a laser is pointed into the surface of water at an angle. Viewed from the side, one can see that the laser striking the surface of water at a low angle (like a flashlight held in a boy's hand pointed out over a lake) when it penetrates the surface of the water the laser bends downward since the water is of a greater density than the air. If you have ever tried poking a long, straight stick or fiberglass pole into the water (like a swimming pool cleaning net) you see the pole appear to bend upwards from above the water looking down the length of the pole -- but the pole is not bending, the light is doing the bending. Or, if you attempt to shoot a fish with a bow and arrow, you have to aim much LOWER than the fish for your arrow to hit the target since the arrow will continue to fly through the water in a straight line but from the position of the bow the arrow will appear to bend upward in its flight under water, since the light coming off the fish bends when it hits the water's surface at an angle.
    .
    Consequently, over the surface of water, where this condition is very likely to occur, objects that are far away over the water's surface and very low down and close to it, might appear to be higher up than they really are, due to the higher density of air that's near the surface of water, in part due to humidity increase and in part due to lower temperature. They post several photographs that demonstrate this phenomenon, which they identify as "looming." Additionally, tall objects with identifiable features at various heights can be seen to appear compressed when viewed through a telescope, such that the parts of the object close to the water's surface will appear shorter in height than they do when photographed at close range without the telescope. For example, the rungs of a standing ladder which are equally spaced will appear closer together near the bottom of the ladder, and gradually further apart as one looks higher up on the ladder, until at some point, perhaps 30 feet high, the rungs all appear to be equally spaced. This gradual change is comparable to the logarithmic scale of a slide rule, but it only applies to the lowest parts of the image in question. At about one or two miles, for example, it applies to the lower 20 or 30 feet. Objects close to the water's surface appear distorted and compressed vertically.
    .
    Extending this principle to the whole picture of what is being viewed, it becomes clear that since the light traveling close to the surface of the water but still through air, can be bending downward toward the water, it is possible that this bending can be close to, equal to or greater than the curvature of the surface of the water. They provide figures on the site for what amount of bending light would be needed to equal the earth's curvature.
    .
    Not to say this is conclusive, but only that the three different experiments shown (only one of which is the Balaton lake video - there are two more they refer to as well) were conducted by well-meaning people but they used inadequate methods. They only made one observation. They only did it at one time. They only did it over the same surface of water.
    .
    They should have done several observations, on different days, at different times of year and different temperatures and humidity; they should have done some laser shots over dry land and in opposite directions, to demonstrate and discover what the consequence of having a laser slightly out of level would be. They are also accused of having a target on the boat that has a diffusely reflective surface such that the place the laser hits the panel on the boat is clearly seen from shore where the laser is coming from (in a way like a traffic sign on the highway has diffusely reflective paint which shines your headlights right back at you from any direction whatsoever). They are accused of then perhaps moving the laser down to meet the boat's target so they could get a favorable reading. I'm not making this accusation, I'm just reporting what the metabunk thread says.
    .
    My question was, since they were riding in a small boat on the surface of water with a laser beam shining on their white board, why was the laser beam so steady on the board when you know that small boats on the water are bobbing up and down, right and left, fore and aft CONSTANTLY, and this cannot be controlled -- EVER. If it were real, that laser dot would have been all over the place, never standing still. But they showed it standing still almost all the time, with very little movement, if any.
    .
    Also, on the metabunk site they refer to a well-known laser in Greenwich, England, which is a beacon for scientific use, and it shines out into the air above the land for all to see. It is observed some kilometers away where it comes close to striking a tall building, where they say it is actually two inches away from the building, nonetheless, there is a visible glow all around the beam which makes a splash of ambient light spilling across the perpendicular side of the tall building. The center of this glow is quite bright and would appear to be the laser itself, but perhaps the resolution of the image is wanting. In any case, there was no similar ambient glow in the Balaton boat's white panel or screen. This makes me wonder why the laser appeared therefore to be much closer to the boat than what they said it was. The laser in England is said to be shining through some dust clouds, the particles of which scatter the laser light by the time it reaches the tall building. But there are particles of moisture lying near the surface of water, so wouldn't that have the same effect at Balaton?
    .
    .--. .-.-.- ... .-.-.- ..-. --- .-. - .... . -.- .. -. --. -.. --- -- --..-- - .... . .--. --- .-- . .-. .- -. -.. -....- -....- .--- ..- ... - -.- .. -.. -.. .. -. --. .-.-.

    Offline kiwiboy

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    Re: Did Catholics before the "Reformation" believe in FE?
    « Reply #297 on: December 06, 2017, 04:22:58 AM »
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  • .
    You did not read far enough in the metabunk forum. A few posts accused them of not having a level laser. BTW a few dozen meters with one centimeter's error (or even one millimeter!) would not ensure a level instrument for projection across several kilometers. They would have needed to establish less than one millimeter variation over 300 meters, by checking in opposite directions, before they would have reasonable assurance of an adequately level laser. Then their accuracy would have been within 3 millimeters in one kilometer or 6 in two or 9 millimeters in three kilometers.
    .
    Be that as it may, the ultimate accusation on the metabunk site is in regards to the distortion that occurs over such surfaces as bodies of water, especially when there is an inversion layer (warm air on top of cold air). The cold air is commonly found lying over the surface of water, and a warm layer of air is not infrequently found above the cold layer. They explain that differences in air density causes the bending of light, just as it does when a laser is pointed into the surface of water at an angle. Viewed from the side, one can see that the laser striking the surface of water at a low angle (like a flashlight held in a boy's hand pointed out over a lake) when it penetrates the surface of the water the laser bends downward since the water is of a greater density than the air. If you have ever tried poking a long, straight stick or fiberglass pole into the water (like a swimming pool cleaning net) you see the pole appear to bend upwards from above the water looking down the length of the pole -- but the pole is not bending, the light is doing the bending. Or, if you attempt to shoot a fish with a bow and arrow, you have to aim much LOWER than the fish for your arrow to hit the target since the arrow will continue to fly through the water in a straight line but from the position of the bow the arrow will appear to bend upward in its flight under water, since the light coming off the fish bends when it hits the water's surface at an angle.
    .
    Consequently, over the surface of water, where this condition is very likely to occur, objects that are far away over the water's surface and very low down and close to it, might appear to be higher up than they really are, due to the higher density of air that's near the surface of water, in part due to humidity increase and in part due to lower temperature. They post several photographs that demonstrate this phenomenon, which they identify as "looming." Additionally, tall objects with identifiable features at various heights can be seen to appear compressed when viewed through a telescope, such that the parts of the object close to the water's surface will appear shorter in height than they do when photographed at close range without the telescope. For example, the rungs of a standing ladder which are equally spaced will appear closer together near the bottom of the ladder, and gradually further apart as one looks higher up on the ladder, until at some point, perhaps 30 feet high, the rungs all appear to be equally spaced. This gradual change is comparable to the logarithmic scale of a slide rule, but it only applies to the lowest parts of the image in question. At about one or two miles, for example, it applies to the lower 20 or 30 feet. Objects close to the water's surface appear distorted and compressed vertically.
    .
    Extending this principle to the whole picture of what is being viewed, it becomes clear that since the light traveling close to the surface of the water but still through air, can be bending downward toward the water, it is possible that this bending can be close to, equal to or greater than the curvature of the surface of the water. They provide figures on the site for what amount of bending light would be needed to equal the earth's curvature.
    .
    Not to say this is conclusive, but only that the three different experiments shown (only one of which is the Balaton lake video - there are two more they refer to as well) were conducted by well-meaning people but they used inadequate methods. They only made one observation. They only did it at one time. They only did it over the same surface of water.
    .
    They should have done several observations, on different days, at different times of year and different temperatures and humidity; they should have done some laser shots over dry land and in opposite directions, to demonstrate and discover what the consequence of having a laser slightly out of level would be. They are also accused of having a target on the boat that has a diffusely reflective surface such that the place the laser hits the panel on the boat is clearly seen from shore where the laser is coming from (in a way like a traffic sign on the highway has diffusely reflective paint which shines your headlights right back at you from any direction whatsoever). They are accused of then perhaps moving the laser down to meet the boat's target so they could get a favorable reading. I'm not making this accusation, I'm just reporting what the metabunk thread says.
    .
    My question was, since they were riding in a small boat on the surface of water with a laser beam shining on their white board, why was the laser beam so steady on the board when you know that small boats on the water are bobbing up and down, right and left, fore and aft CONSTANTLY, and this cannot be controlled -- EVER. If it were real, that laser dot would have been all over the place, never standing still. But they showed it standing still almost all the time, with very little movement, if any.
    .
    Also, on the metabunk site they refer to a well-known laser in Greenwich, England, which is a beacon for scientific use, and it shines out into the air above the land for all to see. It is observed some kilometers away where it comes close to striking a tall building, where they say it is actually two inches away from the building, nonetheless, there is a visible glow all around the beam which makes a splash of ambient light spilling across the perpendicular side of the tall building. The center of this glow is quite bright and would appear to be the laser itself, but perhaps the resolution of the image is wanting. In any case, there was no similar ambient glow in the Balaton boat's white panel or screen. This makes me wonder why the laser appeared therefore to be much closer to the boat than what they said it was. The laser in England is said to be shining through some dust clouds, the particles of which scatter the laser light by the time it reaches the tall building. But there are particles of moisture lying near the surface of water, so wouldn't that have the same effect at Balaton?
    .

    Posting nonsense again Neil I see.

    There is no reason to think they did not have a level laser. Other than just presume that the earth is round, which is no way to do science. So prove they didn't.

    As for your other "important" point; I have to laugh. A distortion that bends perfectly with the "curve" of the earth! Gotta love those magic, and very convenient, distortions!

    The water was very still and calm. You can see that. You are just making spurious assertions to undermine the credibility of the experiment. Because you don't want to accept the results.

    Ambient glow is CLEARLY because of humidity, and/or the strength (quality) of the laser. Another ridiculous attempt to make yourself sound intelligent.
    Eclipses neither prove nor disprove the flat earth.

    "As for whether or not I work for NASA, I'm sorry, but I fail to understand what that could possibly have to do with anything" Neil Obstat, 08-03-2017

    Offline kiwiboy

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    Re: Did Catholics before the "Reformation" believe in FE?
    « Reply #298 on: December 06, 2017, 04:26:43 AM »
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  • Begin with an ad hominem ...

    ... give the lame ol' excuse as to why you won't address it ...
    ... but twist the sense of the one thing you pick out of it while expressing your moral outrage ...
    ... and then leave us with the smug assurance that you know the truth and the rest of the world is just too lazy or wilfully ignorant to discover it.
    Argumentation for Weasels 101.

    Welcome to the discussion Kreuzitter. Though I doubt it will be for long.

    If anyone is smug, it is you. Do you have the slightest clue about what the arguments for the flat earth are? Have you take any time to look into them, or do you reject them a priori?

    Is that a way to discuss with someone?
    Eclipses neither prove nor disprove the flat earth.

    "As for whether or not I work for NASA, I'm sorry, but I fail to understand what that could possibly have to do with anything" Neil Obstat, 08-03-2017

    Offline kiwiboy

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    Re: Did Catholics before the "Reformation" believe in FE?
    « Reply #299 on: December 06, 2017, 04:34:59 AM »
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  • Kiwi,

    Just to clarify you said that, "The biggest problem we have therefore is people who are so dogmatically insistent on the globe, (or secretly so like even steven), when it has clearly been condemned."

    Isn't it conflating shape with heliocentrism?  Wasn't Galileo condemned because helio was strongly suspected of heresy?

    Was the globe specifically condemned?

    Well the Fathers were clearly against the Globe. You can see that in the quotes.

    The condemnation of Galileo does not speak of the globe, it is true. But this is probably because of what exactly it was that Galileo proposed, and there was not much need to go further. It may also have been because there were a lot of people who believed in the globe in the Church, and the Holy Office was threading carefully.

    Ptolomy's Almagest was being universally taught at the time,(for the good things in it), but it also contained the globe error.

    The problem with geocentrists is that they take the galileo condemnation and don't want to go further than that. As if that is the only condemnation that could be made. Like children latching onto a toy and refusing to let go.
    Eclipses neither prove nor disprove the flat earth.

    "As for whether or not I work for NASA, I'm sorry, but I fail to understand what that could possibly have to do with anything" Neil Obstat, 08-03-2017