Author Topic: Did Catholics before the "Reformation" believe in FE?  (Read 3866 times)

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Offline Meg

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Re: Did Catholics before the "Reformation" believe in FE?
« Reply #15 on: November 27, 2017, 06:05:05 PM »
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  • St. Augustine was writing about the danger of going against the accepted science of his day which included the fact that the earth is a globe.  You have no problem accepting information from lay people who say that the earth is flat.  Hannam is a perfectly reasonable source of information.  If there are any errors you should point them out, not dismiss him automatically.

    The regular everyday Catholics of that time were mostly illiterate so they did not leave records of what they thought.  The claim that they believed in a flat earth does not come from evidence but was made up by the Church's enemies.

    By the time St. Thomas wrote the Summa, knowledge that the earth was a globe was so taken for granted that he merely mentions it in passing to illustrate another point:

    St. Augustine no where says what you say he says. He does not mention the flat earth in his description. You say that the accepted science of the day included the fact that the earth is a globe. Did this include the idea the earth revolves around the sun? 

    You seem to have been taken in by this Hannam guy. Have you noticed that I posted two quotes from Church Fathers regarding the flat earth? Were they also the Church's enemies, since they refer to a flat earth? An early Church Father named Lactentius wrote a long defense against the idea of a globe earth. Are his writings now considered to be dangerous, according to Hannam?

    St. Thomas may have his views regarding the shape of the earth. That's fine. But the Church has not taught the shape of the earth, whether round or flat. 


    Offline Meg

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    Re: Did Catholics before the "Reformation" believe in FE?
    « Reply #16 on: November 27, 2017, 06:08:14 PM »
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  • You are claiming that the Church teaches something stupid.  It makes the Church look stupid and it makes you look stupid. Then when we want to talk about important things pertaining to salvation, people aren't listening because they have already decided we are stupid.
    Flat earth is exactly the sort of stupid thing that St. Augustine was writing about.

    I'm sorry that you are embarrassed by the idea of the flat earth, which some of the Church Fathers believed in.
    St. Augustine made no mention of the flat earth, in your quote from him. I'll keep reminding you of that.

    The ancient Hebrews also believed in a flat earth. 


    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Did Catholics before the "Reformation" believe in FE?
    « Reply #17 on: November 27, 2017, 06:41:51 PM »
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  • I'm sorry that you are embarrassed by the idea of the flat earth, which some of the Church Fathers believed in.
    St. Augustine made no mention of the flat earth, in your quote from him. I'll keep reminding you of that.

    The ancient Hebrews also believed in a flat earth.
    Yes, in the early period of the Church some of the Church Fathers believed in a flat earth.  The position of Catholics had changed by the time of Isidore of Seville. (around 600 AD).  From that time on Christian thinkers all accepted the earth is a globe: Venerable Bede, Albert the Great, Thomas Aquinas, Roger Bacon.  This is what was taught at Catholic universities starting in the middle ages (historically these were religious institutions.)  This idea was not introduced by the Reformation as you claimed earlier.  It was the natural development of Catholic thought, occurring early in our history.

    St. Augustine wrote about how foolish and spiritually dangerous it is to take a position that goes against reason.  It is very unfortunate that you are unable to see that this applies to flat earth.

    Flat earth is not a Church teaching.  Even you must realize that.  What the ancient Hebrews believed, may be significant to Protestants doing their personal interpretations of Scripture, but is not relevant to Catholics.  There is no good reason for you to insist on proclaiming an idea that is potentially harmful to souls.  If you want to believe the earth is flat, go ahead. There is no dogma that says you should not. But please keep quiet about it.
    Most sweet Jesus, whose overflowing charity for men is requited by so much forgetfulness, negligence and contempt, behold us prostrate before you, eager to repair by a special act of homage the cruel indifference and injuries to which your loving Heart is

    Offline Meg

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    Re: Did Catholics before the "Reformation" believe in FE?
    « Reply #18 on: November 27, 2017, 06:50:18 PM »
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  • Yes, in the early period of the Church some of the Church Fathers believed in a flat earth.  The position of Catholics had changed by the time of Isidore of Seville. (around 600 AD).  From that time on Christian thinkers all accepted the earth is a globe: Venerable Bede, Albert the Great, Thomas Aquinas, Roger Bacon.  This is what was taught at Catholic universities starting in the middle ages (historically these were religious institutions.)  This idea was not introduced by the Reformation as you claimed earlier.  It was the natural development of Catholic thought, occurring early in our history.

    St. Augustine wrote about how foolish and spiritually dangerous it is to take a position that goes against reason.  It is very unfortunate that you are unable to see that this applies to flat earth.

    Flat earth is not a Church teaching.  Even you must realize that.  What the ancient Hebrews believed, may be significant to Protestants doing their personal interpretations of Scripture, but is not relevant to Catholics.  There is no good reason for you to insist on proclaiming an idea that is potentially harmful to souls.  If you want to believe the earth is flat, go ahead. There is no dogma that says you should not. But please keep quiet about it.

    I never said that the globe earth model was introduced by the reformation. It was furthered by Protestant reformers, freemasons, and deluded Catholics.

    Did the Church teach that the earth revolves around the sun, or was the idea condemned by the Church? I assume that you know the answer to this.


    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Did Catholics before the "Reformation" believe in FE?
    « Reply #19 on: November 27, 2017, 07:04:14 PM »
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  • I never said that the globe earth model was introduced by the reformation. It was furthered by Protestant reformers, freemasons, and deluded Catholics.

    Your exact words were " Catholics believed in a flat-earth before the Reformation Protestants, deluded Catholics and Freemasons got a foot in the door of science and changed what Catholics traditionally believed."  This is simply not true.  Catholics had stopped believing in a flat earth by 600, which is around a thousand years  before you are claiming it happened.  Furthermore you are saying that St. Albert the Great, Doctor of the Church and Patron of natural sciences, is a deluded Catholic, since he believed the earth is a globe.

    Did the Church teach that the earth revolves around the sun, or was the idea condemned by the Church? I assume that you know the answer to this.
    That issue is more complicated and I would need to study it more before saying anything.  It looks like you know you don't have a leg to stand on and want to change the subject.
    Most sweet Jesus, whose overflowing charity for men is requited by so much forgetfulness, negligence and contempt, behold us prostrate before you, eager to repair by a special act of homage the cruel indifference and injuries to which your loving Heart is


    Offline Meg

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    Re: Did Catholics before the "Reformation" believe in FE?
    « Reply #20 on: November 27, 2017, 07:26:49 PM »
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  • Your exact words were " Catholics believed in a flat-earth before the Reformation Protestants, deluded Catholics and Freemasons got a foot in the door of science and changed what Catholics traditionally believed."  This is simply not true.  Catholics had stopped believing in a flat earth by 600, which is around a thousand years  before you are claiming it happened.  Furthermore you are saying that St. Albert the Great, Doctor of the Church and Patron of natural sciences, is a deluded Catholic, since he believed the earth is a globe.
    That issue is more complicated and I would need to study it more before saying anything.  It looks like you know you don't have a leg to stand on and want to change the subject.

    Your James Hannam says that the Church foolishly believed that you can't say that the earth revolves around the sun as a fact. He also said that the Church made a big mistake by meddling in scientific questions. He seems to be quite a fan of Galileo, and of heliocentrism.

    There's a reason why I bring up heliocentrism. Because Popes of the past have condemned heliocentrism. It may seem like I'm changing the subject, but I'm not. It has nothing to do with believing that I don't have a leg to stand on. That's your view. 

    Do you believe in heliocentrism? That the earth revolves around the sun? Because that belief has been condemned by Popes.

    The deluded Catholics that I'm referring to are the ones who actively worked in scientific endeavors to push the globe earth and heliocentrism, which has led, in part to the problem with secular humanism that we see today. I'm not referring to saints who believed as such.

    I'll keep on discussing the subject as long as it's allowed on the forum. 

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Did Catholics before the "Reformation" believe in FE?
    « Reply #21 on: November 27, 2017, 07:30:01 PM »
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  • Until someone can explain to me how this is a question of faith, this is just useless bickering.  It's a scientific question.  At least with Geocentrism, there were passages in the Bible that could be construed as supporting it.  In fact, I am a Geocentrist.  And there's certainly a pernicious side to Heliocentrism, an attempt to dethrone human beings as the pinnacle of creation and also to cast doubt upon creation itself.  But I don't see it with flat earth.

    Offline Meg

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    Re: Did Catholics before the "Reformation" believe in FE?
    « Reply #22 on: November 27, 2017, 07:34:41 PM »
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  • Until someone can explain to me how this is a question of faith, this is just useless bickering.  It's a scientific question.  At least with Geocentrism, there were passages in the Bible that could be construed as supporting it.  In fact, I am a Geocentrist.  And there's certainly a pernicious side to Heliocentrism, an attempt to dethrone human beings as the pinnacle of creation and also to cast doubt upon creation itself.  But I don't see it with flat earth.

    I don't think it's just a question of science.

    Catholic flat-earthers do see the attempt in modern science to view the world as being totally natural and without a known creator. Or, if there is a creator, he's more along the lines of the Freemasonic 'great architect of the universe,' who has created the world, but then just left us on our own to get along as well as possible. That's not the Catholic concept of our Creator, of course.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Did Catholics before the "Reformation" believe in FE?
    « Reply #23 on: November 27, 2017, 07:37:02 PM »
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  • I don't think it's just a question of science.

    Catholic flat-earthers do see the attempt in modern science to view the world as being totally natural and without a known creator. Or, if there is a creator, he's more along the lines of the Freemasonic 'great architect of the universe,' who has created the world, but then just left us on our own to get along as well as possible. That's not the Catholic concept of our Creator, of course.

    But how does the possibility of the earth being a sphere undermine God as creator?  Someone had to create the sphere.  I don't get it.  Geocentrism I can see.  Flat Earth vs. Sphere?  I don't see the philosophical ramifications of it.  So long as this sphere is at the center of God's creation, what does it matter?

    What's underneath this flat area?  If you say hell, then what's underneath that?  I have no problem with the notion of a grand universe that spreads out all around the earth.

    I certainly keep an open mind about flat earth, but I have not seen any convincing evidence for it.  As for Geocentrism, there's a LOT of compelling evidence in its favor.  It almost seems as if Flat-Earthism is a distraction from the real issue of Geocentrism.  It's easier to discredit Flat-Earthism and more people think you're nuts if you go there, so that even legitimate arguments in favor of Geocentrism are discredited ... when coming from the same people.

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Did Catholics before the "Reformation" believe in FE?
    « Reply #24 on: November 27, 2017, 07:41:12 PM »
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  • There's a reason why I bring up heliocentrism. Because Popes of the past have condemned heliocentrism. It may seem like I'm changing the subject, but I'm not. It has nothing to do with believing that I don't have a leg to stand on. That's your view.

    Do you believe in heliocentrism? That the earth revolves around the sun? Because that belief has been condemned by Popes.

    The deluded Catholics that I'm referring to are the ones who actively worked in scientific endeavors to push the globe earth and heliocentrism, which has led, in part to the problem with secular humanism that we see today. I'm not referring to saints who believed as such.
    I have not studied the question of geo/heliocentrism enough to express an opinion.  I like to know what I am talking about.

    I have, however, looked into flat earthism.  There is no reason why Catholics should not believe in a globe earth and no evidence that this belief promotes secular humanism.  And it does not make sense to say that it is OK for Saints to believe it but bad when anyone else does.

    You seem to be conflating flat earth with geocentrism, but you have not established any reason for doing this.  At this point, it seems merely arbitrary.
    Most sweet Jesus, whose overflowing charity for men is requited by so much forgetfulness, negligence and contempt, behold us prostrate before you, eager to repair by a special act of homage the cruel indifference and injuries to which your loving Heart is

    Offline Meg

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    Re: Did Catholics before the "Reformation" believe in FE?
    « Reply #25 on: November 27, 2017, 07:42:27 PM »
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  • Flat earth is not a Church teaching.  Even you must realize that.  What the ancient Hebrews believed, may be significant to Protestants doing their personal interpretations of Scripture, but is not relevant to Catholics.  There is no good reason for you to insist on proclaiming an idea that is potentially harmful to souls.  If you want to believe the earth is flat, go ahead. There is no dogma that says you should not. But please keep quiet about it.

    I never said that the flat earth is Church teaching. You believe that the Ancient Hebrews have no relevance to our Catholic Faith? What about all of the Hebrew prophets and kings who the Church has viewed as a forerunner to Our Lord?

    Are you aware that we are allowed to interpret Scripture literally, which includes the Old Testament? And as such, we are allowed to interpret Genesis literally? Which means that we can believe in a flat earth. The Church allows us to debate it, because she has not ruled on the shape of the earth. You don't have to believe in a flat earth. But I can, and will.



    Offline Meg

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    Re: Did Catholics before the "Reformation" believe in FE?
    « Reply #26 on: November 27, 2017, 07:48:12 PM »
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  • I have not studied the question of geo/heliocentrism enough to express an opinion.  I like to know what I am talking about.

    I have, however, looked into flat earthism.  There is no reason why Catholics should not believe in a globe earth and no evidence that this belief promotes secular humanism.  And it does not make sense to say that it is OK for Saints to believe it but bad when anyone else does.

    You seem to be conflating flat earth with geocentrism, but you have not established any reason for doing this.  At this point, it seems merely arbitrary.


    Some saints have advocated for a flat earth, and some for a globe earth. You can believe what you choose. And so can I. We, as Catholics, are not required to believe in a globe earth.

    Are you aware that all flat-earthers are also geocentrists? (well, the Catholic ones, anyway). You cannot know much about the Flat Earth if you don't understand this.

    I'll try to write more later about why globe earth/heliocentrism has promoted secular humanism. Again, if you have thoroughly studied the Flat-earth, with a mind to understand it rather than just to find ammo to condemn it, then you would have seen the problem with secular humanism that accompanies globe earth/heliocentrism.

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Did Catholics before the "Reformation" believe in FE?
    « Reply #27 on: November 27, 2017, 07:53:48 PM »
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  • I never said that the flat earth is Church teaching. You believe that the Ancient Hebrews have no relevance to our Catholic Faith? What about all of the Hebrew prophets and kings who the Church has viewed as a forerunner to Our Lord?

    Are you aware that we are allowed to interpret Scripture literally, which includes the Old Testament? And as such, we are allowed to interpret Genesis literally? Which means that we can believe in a flat earth. The Church allows us to debate it, because she has not ruled on the shape of the earth. You don't have to believe in a flat earth. But I can, and will.
    I believe that people's personal interpretations of the Ancient Hebrews have no relevance to the Catholic Faith.  People can see anything they want in Scripture.  We need to approach it with the guidance of the Church or we will recreate the infinite nonsense of Protestants.

    I already told you that the Church allows your belief in flat earth.  That does not make it prudent or helpful to talk about it.  I am not sure what you think to gain by debating it.  Do you like people telling you that you are stupid?
    Most sweet Jesus, whose overflowing charity for men is requited by so much forgetfulness, negligence and contempt, behold us prostrate before you, eager to repair by a special act of homage the cruel indifference and injuries to which your loving Heart is

    Offline Meg

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    Re: Did Catholics before the "Reformation" believe in FE?
    « Reply #28 on: November 27, 2017, 08:01:11 PM »
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  • I believe that people's personal interpretations of the Ancient Hebrews have no relevance to the Catholic Faith.  People can see anything they want in Scripture.  We need to approach it with the guidance of the Church or we will recreate the infinite nonsense of Protestants.

    I already told you that the Church allows your belief in flat earth.  That does not make it prudent or helpful to talk about it.  I am not sure what you think to gain by debating it.  Do you like people telling you that you are stupid?

    Such a silly and immature post, that it doesn't bear responding to. I'm going to keep talking about it. Get over it. If you cannot help but be rude, then I will not respond to you further. 

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Did Catholics before the "Reformation" believe in FE?
    « Reply #29 on: November 27, 2017, 08:07:01 PM »
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  • Such a silly and immature post, that it doesn't bear responding to. I'm going to keep talking about it. Get over it. If you cannot help but be rude, then I will not respond to you further.
    You seem attached to your opinion but unable to describe any benefits to debating it.  Do you have a spiritual director or priest you could talk to about this.  It does not sound very healthy.
    Most sweet Jesus, whose overflowing charity for men is requited by so much forgetfulness, negligence and contempt, behold us prostrate before you, eager to repair by a special act of homage the cruel indifference and injuries to which your loving Heart is

     

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