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Poll

What model do you believe most accurately describes the cosmos?

Modern Science:  earth revolves around barycenter of solar system as solar system moves through space, etc.
25 (25.3%)
Geocentrism:  earth is stationary, shaped like a globe, and the vast universe revolves around it
34 (34.3%)
Flat Earth:  earth is stationary, the surface we live on is flat, covered by a physical firmament, and the universe is closer than we're told
31 (31.3%)
Other
9 (9.1%)

Total Members Voted: 91

Author Topic: Cosmology Poll  (Read 63616 times)

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Offline St Giles

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Re: Cosmology Poll
« Reply #345 on: November 20, 2022, 01:03:53 PM »
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  •  And the vaccuм of space (measured in torr) is orders of magnitude "stronger" than anything we've been able to reproduce here on earth. 


    Please explain where you get this idea, and the proof behind it.

    The mythbusters tested the vacuum tanker collapse, and it did not work with the model of tanker they used, which could be different than the one in the "myth", until they caused some damage to it. Round containers are very strong when a force is applied evenly distributed, but cause a slight deformity in one spot, and most of the strength is lost.


    Can gravity not act on air? What causes hot air to rise and cold air to fall? What causes buoyancy? 
    "Be you therefore perfect, as also your heavenly Father is perfect."
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    "Every idle word that men shall speak, they shall render an account for it in the day of judgment"

    Offline Philothea3

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    Re: Cosmology Poll
    « Reply #346 on: November 21, 2022, 08:35:42 AM »
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  • The true cosmology of the Earth isn't really that important to me, so I'll go with flat Earth because it makes soyence cultists seethe and froth at the mouth the most :trollface:
    Almost all the FE videos you can find online are made by neo pagans and protestants :trollface:
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    THY WILL BE DONE ON EARTH AS IT IS IN HEAVEN, so that we may love you with all our heart, by always having you in mind; with all our soul, by always longing for you; with all our mind, by determining to seek your glory in everything; and with all our strength, of body and soul... 
    - St Francis de Assisi


    Offline Philothea3

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    Re: Cosmology Poll
    « Reply #347 on: November 21, 2022, 08:40:03 AM »
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  • Trying to debate with you Tradman and some others, is impossible. Take for example the statement above. Are you telling me I am so silly that I think water is gas. Or, are you telling me when water is mentioned in Scripture it really means gas. Then again, over here we call something funny as 'gas.' So when water is mentioned in Scripture is it just being funny? Trying to get a 1 on 1 or a 2 on 2 debate with flat-earthers is very difficult. Anyway, I got to hand it to you guys, you have chased every global earther off the forum. If you were a little more calm and reasonable, it could be an interesting subject. Calling us satanists, heretics, stupid and so on, is not how Jesus would teach a flat Earth, is it? Now that I think of it, did He?
    I agree. I'm not even a globe earther but just trying to figure out things here, and already got many name callings. And it just blows my mind how people don't understand basic physics :facepalm:
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    THY WILL BE DONE ON EARTH AS IT IS IN HEAVEN, so that we may love you with all our heart, by always having you in mind; with all our soul, by always longing for you; with all our mind, by determining to seek your glory in everything; and with all our strength, of body and soul... 
    - St Francis de Assisi

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Cosmology Poll
    « Reply #348 on: November 21, 2022, 12:39:46 PM »
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  • Can gravity not act on air? What causes hot air to rise and cold air to fall? What causes buoyancy?

    Conceding for a moment that gravity as such exists, yes it could act on air, but the force of gravity does not suffice to overcome the tendency of entropy.  This is easily demonstrated, and has been demonstrated, simply by putting a vacuum chamber on top of a container filled with gas.  Demonstrations show that not only does the air spread upward into the vacuum, but water in the bottom of the container also evaporates.  Gravity, if it exists, is an extremely weak force.

    As for buoyancy, I think your question is what accounts for the directionality of the buoyancy, and there are two thoughts out there, 1) some electromagnetic forces inherent in matter, or 2) the flow of ether.  I don't buy the Einsteinian stuff about curvature of space-time.

    So the common explanation (except for raw gravity) is that there not enough air pressure at the top edges of the atmosphere to push the molecules/atoms out into the vacuum, since that's actually what's happening (vacuums don't actually "suck" from a physics standpoint), but this is just kicking the can down the road, because it doesn't explain why the entropy does not cause the more dense (higher pressure) molecules to push into the less dense areas, and the only plausible explanation for this is that this is all taking place within a container with a finite volume.

    Offline St Giles

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    Re: Cosmology Poll
    « Reply #349 on: November 21, 2022, 08:13:50 PM »
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  • .  I don't buy the Einsteinian stuff about curvature of space-time.
    That's fine, but don't just throw it out until you are certain.

    So the common explanation (except for raw gravity) is that there not enough air pressure at the top edges of the atmosphere to push the molecules/atoms out into the vacuum, since that's actually what's happening (vacuums don't actually "suck" from a physics standpoint), but this is just kicking the can down the road, because it doesn't explain why the entropy does not cause the more dense (higher pressure) molecules to push into the less dense areas, and the only plausible explanation for this is that this is all taking place within a container with a finite volume.
    You know about inches of water and inches of mercury as a measurement of pressure, and that as you go deeper under water in a lake, or wherever, pressure increases. Why this pressure increase? Why should the air be any different? Actually air acts similarly. Put oil in water, and it floats to the top. Put helium in air, and it does the same. Why should water fall because of gravity, but not air? We could have an inches of air measurement, but not only would it be a really small unit, but such a unit of measure would only work in a vacuum just like how you can't weigh a certain number of inches of water in a column while under water. The altitude in which exists enough air pressure to breathe and survive is small compared to the lowest pressure zone at the edge of space, which makes sense because there is no more air to push down on it, so it will expand a lot more being of such little pressure. Yet, gravity still keeps those air molecules from completely flying away. Actually, I think the scientists say hydrogen and maybe helium too are lost into space.

    In theory, it should be possible to measure the weight of a certain amount of air let into a vacuum chamber, and to measure the difference in pressure between the air in the top of the container and the bottom. 
    "Be you therefore perfect, as also your heavenly Father is perfect."
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    Offline Emile

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    Re: Cosmology Poll
    « Reply #350 on: November 21, 2022, 08:57:16 PM »
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  • ...
    So the common explanation (except for raw gravity) is that there not enough air pressure at the top edges of the atmosphere to push the molecules/atoms out into the vacuum, since that's actually what's happening (vacuums don't actually "suck" from a physics standpoint), but this is just kicking the can down the road, because it doesn't explain why the entropy does not cause the more dense (higher pressure) molecules to push into the less dense areas, and the only plausible explanation for this is that this is all taking place within a container with a finite volume.
    If we are in a sealed container of finite volume, pressure should be equal, regardless of altitude (see Pascal's Law). Either Pascal's Law is incorrect (which it doesn't seem to be) or we're missing some factor(s).
    If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?

    ― Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, The Gulag Archipelago

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Cosmology Poll
    « Reply #351 on: November 21, 2022, 10:09:56 PM »
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  • If we are in a sealed container of finite volume, pressure should be equal, regardless of altitude (see Pascal's Law). Either Pascal's Law is incorrect (which it doesn't seem to be) or we're missing some factor(s).

    Well, there's some force that is pushing it downwards resulting in the heavier molecules being "down" and the lighter ones going "up" ... and it isn't gravity.  Strength of gravity does not suffices to overcome entropy.  Without a container there can be NO pressure.

    You can put liquids of different densities into a container, then perhaps add some gases on top of the liquids, and the heavier ones will sink and the lighter ones go up, and they form layers, and the upper layers have lower density than the higher layers.  Now put the same liquids into an open-top container and put a vacuum at the top.  Not only will the gases in the upper section evacuate, but the liquids will also turn to gas and evaporated out of the container.  Obviously how much evaporates depends on how much area there is to fill, but with alleged space, the volume is infinite.

    So the pressures do not equalize depending upon the total size of the container and the total volume of matter within the container.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Cosmology Poll
    « Reply #352 on: November 21, 2022, 10:22:43 PM »
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  • You know about inches of water and inches of mercury as a measurement of pressure, and that as you go deeper under water in a lake, or wherever, pressure increases. Why this pressure increase?

    That pressure obviously due to the "weight" of matter above the point.  Billions of gallons of water are pretty heavy.

    But with a vacuum on top the "weight" of matter will get lighter and lighter as the upper layers press out into the vacuum of space, and that would continue until the liquids themselves are turned into gas and eventually evacuated.

    It all requires a container and cannot happen without a container.

    This should be demonstrable on a small scale if gravity can produce this effect.  Put some dirt into a chamber, perhaps a cup of water here or there.  The introduce gases in the same mixture / proportions that we would have in our atmosphere, and fill the remaining space to within a reasonable average PSI of the earth's atmosphere.  Over time, not sure how long, but we should see the heaver gases lower down, closer to the dirt and the lighter gases higher up.  Not sure how long it would take to settle out that way.  But whether you put a tiny amount of gas in (tiny air pressure) or a larger amount (high air pressure), introduce a vacuum to the open top of the chamber and not only will the gases dissipate, but the water will evaporated (turning directly into gas) and it too will spread out to fill the available vacuum area.  Gravity does not suffice to keep those gases nor the water in the lower chamber, nor does the explanation of lower gas pressure at the upper reaches of the atmosphere.  Even with tiny air pressure, very quickly the water will begin to transform into gas and will then evacuate the lower chamber.  This debunks the explanation that a combination of gravity and the low air pressure at higher altitudes explains why the the earth's atmosphere and oceans do not evacuate the earth out into space.

    You could argue that there's some unknown principle or force keeping things bound to the earth, but modern science has articulated no such explanation.

    Some of us accept the unanimous Patristic interpretation of Sacred Scripture that there is a solid firmament above the atmosphere that keeps it contained.  Others prefer to bow to modern science.  Science is proven wrong over and over and over again, so much so that only a fool would put much trust in them, especially when you see how the origins of modern science are clearly driven by the atheistic agenda.  They assured everyone that the Big Bang was fact for several generations now, that the universe is expanding, that gravity is the primary force that governs the movements of the galaxies, stars, and planets, but this has been so badly debunked that they had to make up this phantom "dark matter", which allegedly must constitute 80% of the mass of the entire universe to keep their theories on life support, even though no one has ever detected this dark matter.


    Offline Emile

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    Re: Cosmology Poll
    « Reply #353 on: November 22, 2022, 12:12:39 AM »
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  • Well, there's some force that is pushing it downwards resulting in the heavier molecules being "down" and the lighter ones going "up" ... and it isn't gravity.  Strength of gravity does not suffices to overcome entropy.  Without a container there can be NO pressure.

    You can put liquids of different densities into a container, then perhaps add some gases on top of the liquids, and the heavier ones will sink and the lighter ones go up, and they form layers, and the upper layers have lower density than the higher layers.  Now put the same liquids into an open-top container and put a vacuum at the top.  Not only will the gases in the upper section evacuate, but the liquids will also turn to gas and evaporated out of the container.  Obviously how much evaporates depends on how much area there is to fill, but with alleged space, the volume is infinite.

    So the pressures do not equalize depending upon the total size of the container and the total volume of matter within the container.
    Pressure and density are two separate and distinct things. Let's use a down-to-earth illustration. Take a nice t-bone steak, cut off a piece of the meat and chew it. Now take the bone and chew that with the same amount of force that you used on the meat. Now, unless the cow came from Chernobyl Farms, the same amount of force that shredded the meat will not penetrate the bone. The bone is obviously more dense than the meat, but the force (pressure) applied to each is identical.

    Pressure in a sealed vessel and Pascal's Law. Regardless of what combination of fluids and/or gases, the pressure should be equal in all areas of a sealed vessel. The materials may stratify according to their varying densities, but the pressure is unaffected.

    Nature of the firmament:
    If the firmament is impermeable, we should not have a change in pressure with a change in altitude. The air may contain oxygen at low altitude and helium at high altitude but the pressure should be identical. But we've all observed that it isn't that way; anyone who has driven up or down even moderate hills has felt their ears "pop" because of a change in pressure.

    If the firmament is permeable, and surrounded by negative pressure (vacuum), and the leak rate is high enough, we would see a pressure decrease at higher altitudes first, but, before long, would notice it at low altitude. Man would've died long ago.

    So when we observe that air pressure increases at lower altitude and that materials always stratify with the densest materials toward earth, it points to there being something (some might be tempted to term it "a force") that draws material things toward earth.

    P.S. In case it's not clear, I'm not supporting a "NASA" view of creation nor arguing for the sake of arguing. I'm actually interested in this subject but I find the answers given on certain points quite lacking.


    If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?

    ― Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, The Gulag Archipelago

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Cosmology Poll
    « Reply #354 on: November 22, 2022, 12:28:51 AM »
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  • Pressure and density are two separate and distinct things.

    Yes, but they're directly related and, depending on the context of what's being discussed, can be used interchangeably:
    Quote
    Pressure is the measure of force acting on a unit area. Density is the measure of how closely any given entity is packed, or it is the ratio of the mass of the entity to its volume. The relation between pressure and density is direct. Change in pressure will be reflected in a change in density and vice-versa.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Cosmology Poll
    « Reply #355 on: November 22, 2022, 12:30:35 AM »
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  • Nature of the firmament:
    If the firmament is impermeable, we should not have a change in pressure with a change in altitude. The air may contain oxygen at low altitude and helium at high altitude but the pressure should be identical. But we've all observed that it isn't that way; anyone who has driven up or down even moderate hills has felt their ears "pop" because of a change in pressure.

    If the firmament is permeable, and surrounded by negative pressure (vacuum), and the leak rate is high enough, we would see a pressure decrease at higher altitudes first, but, before long, would notice it at low altitude. Man would've died long ago.

    I have no issues with arguing for a partially-permeable firmament vs. one that's entirely impermeable.  We know that it's not permeable to water, but may be permeable to some extent with gases.  In fact, similar debates took place among the Church Fathers.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Cosmology Poll
    « Reply #356 on: November 22, 2022, 12:41:27 AM »
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  • So when we observe that air pressure increases at lower altitude and that materials always stratify with the densest materials toward earth, it points to there being something (some might be tempted to term it "a force") that draws material things toward earth.

    P.S. In case it's not clear, I'm not supporting a "NASA" view of creation nor arguing for the sake of arguing. I'm actually interested in this subject but I find the answers given on certain points quite lacking.

    I've agreed that there is something that has to account for the directionality of the stratification.  I just don't believe that it's gravity.  In fact, there's a video out there of a lecture given by an MIT professor who dismisses gravity as having any effect on or near the earth, asserting that the force involved is electromagnetism.

    In that case the stratification could be determined based on the degree of charge on given bodies.  It's said that the earth has a negative charge.  Consequently, those elements with higher positive charge would tend to clump downward toward the earth, whereas those with lesser charge would rise higher.  Generally speaking the charge would be related too the "weight" or mass, if the charge emanates from nuclear principles.

    Subsequently, if there were elements that had a negative charge, they would be repelled upward and away from the earth.  I've seen demonstrations online of electric charge being used to counteract "gravity", and of course the tech is being actively used for some of those high-speed trains.  But gravity IMO doesn't exist, and it's all somehow related to charge, to electromagnetism.

    But regardless of either gravity or charge, it's never been demonstrated that either of these could counteract the power of a vacuum.  As I mentioned I've seen vacuum chambers on top of a container opened at the top, and not only was there air evacuated but the water inside the lower chamber turned evaporated.  If we are to believed that there's an nearly-infinite vacuum outside of and adjacent to the atmosphere, the atmosphere would most certainly leave the earth, and by now the oceans would have completely dried up as well.

    Offline St Giles

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    Re: Cosmology Poll
    « Reply #357 on: November 22, 2022, 06:29:01 PM »
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  • You can put liquids of different densities into a container, then perhaps add some gases on top of the liquids, and the heavier ones will sink and the lighter ones go up, and they form layers, and the upper layers have lower density than the higher layers.  Now put the same liquids into an open-top container and put a vacuum at the top.  Not only will the gases in the upper section evacuate, but the liquids will also turn to gas and evaporated out of the container.  Obviously how much evaporates depends on how much area there is to fill, but with alleged space, the volume is infinite.
    Now swing that open top container around in a circle within a vacuum chamber to use centrifugal force to simulate gravity and see what happens. 
    Well, there's some force that is pushing it downwards resulting in the heavier molecules being "down" and the lighter ones going "up" ... and it isn't gravity.  Strength of gravity does not suffices to overcome entropy.  Without a container there can be NO pressure.
    Pressure can be exerted by one uncontained magnet pushing on another. I wonder if some sort of magnetic vapor exists that could use magnetism to simulate gravity to prove an invisible force can make a gas act like it does on the globe earth model inside a vacuum.

    Please watch the second video about 50 reasons the earth is a globe on the Space is fake and gαy thread. There is what appears to be a very easy to reproduce experiment for proving masses attract (gravity).
    "Be you therefore perfect, as also your heavenly Father is perfect."
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    Offline St Giles

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    Re: Cosmology Poll
    « Reply #358 on: November 22, 2022, 07:30:57 PM »
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  • That pressure obviously due to the "weight" of matter above the point.  Billions of gallons of water are pretty heavy.

    But with a vacuum on top the "weight" of matter will get lighter and lighter as the upper layers press out into the vacuum of space, and that would continue until the liquids themselves are turned into gas and eventually evacuated.

    It all requires a container and cannot happen without a container.

    This should be demonstrable on a small scale if gravity can produce this effect.  Put some dirt into a chamber, perhaps a cup of water here or there.  The introduce gases in the same mixture / proportions that we would have in our atmosphere, and fill the remaining space to within a reasonable average PSI of the earth's atmosphere.  Over time, not sure how long, but we should see the heaver gases lower down, closer to the dirt and the lighter gases higher up.  Not sure how long it would take to settle out that way.  But whether you put a tiny amount of gas in (tiny air pressure) or a larger amount (high air pressure), introduce a vacuum to the open top of the chamber and not only will the gases dissipate, but the water will evaporated (turning directly into gas) and it too will spread out to fill the available vacuum area.  Gravity does not suffice to keep those gases nor the water in the lower chamber, nor does the explanation of lower gas pressure at the upper reaches of the atmosphere.  Even with tiny air pressure, very quickly the water will begin to transform into gas and will then evacuate the lower chamber.  This debunks the explanation that a combination of gravity and the low air pressure at higher altitudes explains why the the earth's atmosphere and oceans do not evacuate the earth out into space.

    You could argue that there's some unknown principle or force keeping things bound to the earth, but modern science has articulated no such explanation.

    Some of us accept the unanimous Patristic interpretation of Sacred Scripture that there is a solid firmament above the atmosphere that keeps it contained.  Others prefer to bow to modern science.  Science is proven wrong over and over and over again, so much so that only a fool would put much trust in them, especially when you see how the origins of modern science are clearly driven by the atheistic agenda.  They assured everyone that the Big Bang was fact for several generations now, that the universe is expanding, that gravity is the primary force that governs the movements of the galaxies, stars, and planets, but this has been so badly debunked that they had to make up this phantom "dark matter", which allegedly must constitute 80% of the mass of the entire universe to keep their theories on life support, even though no one has ever detected this dark matter.
    It requires a container? What is a container? What does it do? Don't containers exert and equal and opposite force or else they cannot contain something? Can an invisible force like magnetism or GRAVITY acting on every atom take the place of solid container walls? If gravity is possible, is it possible that there are other forces such as dark matter? Maybe gravity is not relevant to the largest scale workings of the universe, just as it doesn't seems relevant to some very small scale physics. 

    Anyway, I think I am starting to see what you are talking about with the vacuum causing the air and water to leave and evaporate. But that is assuming what works on a small scale also works on a large (global) scale. We know something attracts objects downward. It would be interesting to see what a computer simulation would result in if these variables were programmed: different atoms and molecules and their mass, a ball the size and mass of the earth, a force that attracts mass to mass at a strength proportional to the mass and its density, a huge expanse of low density air like what is found in space (something like 1,000,000 hydrogen atoms per cubic meter for example), and the properties of entropy of the simulated gasses as they are on earth. Perhaps even going so far as to define the temperature gasses must be at certain altitudes, and then set this simulation into motion starting with the ball having no more density of gas particles surrounding it that what's in the programmed "outer space".
    "Be you therefore perfect, as also your heavenly Father is perfect."
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    Offline St Giles

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    Re: Cosmology Poll
    « Reply #359 on: November 22, 2022, 07:38:05 PM »
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  • I've agreed that there is something that has to account for the directionality of the stratification.  I just don't believe that it's gravity.  In fact, there's a video out there of a lecture given by an MIT professor who dismisses gravity as having any effect on or near the earth, asserting that the force involved is electromagnetism.

    In that case the stratification could be determined based on the degree of charge on given bodies.  It's said that the earth has a negative charge.  Consequently, those elements with higher positive charge would tend to clump downward toward the earth, whereas those with lesser charge would rise higher.  Generally speaking the charge would be related too the "weight" or mass, if the charge emanates from nuclear principles.

    Subsequently, if there were elements that had a negative charge, they would be repelled upward and away from the earth.  I've seen demonstrations online of electric charge being used to counteract "gravity", and of course the tech is being actively used for some of those high-speed trains.  But gravity IMO doesn't exist, and it's all somehow related to charge, to electromagnetism.

    But regardless of either gravity or charge, it's never been demonstrated that either of these could counteract the power of a vacuum.  As I mentioned I've seen vacuum chambers on top of a container opened at the top, and not only was there air evacuated but the water inside the lower chamber turned evaporated.  If we are to believed that there's an nearly-infinite vacuum outside of and adjacent to the atmosphere, the atmosphere would most certainly leave the earth, and by now the oceans would have completely dried up as well.
    My problem with the electromagnetism theory is that it should be easily proven right or wrong with electromagnets, or even permanent magnets. Some things are more or less affected by electromagnetism, but in an isolated and out of proportion way compared to the general constant force pulling things down. Magnets can defy gravity to an extreme degree, yet they cannot attract or repel most objects.
    "Be you therefore perfect, as also your heavenly Father is perfect."
    "Seek first the kingdom of Heaven..."
    "Every idle word that men shall speak, they shall render an account for it in the day of judgment"