Author Topic: Cosmology Poll (Read 64607 times)

Miser Peccator · « **Reply #330 on:** November 19, 2022, 02:43:00 PM »

Quote from: Miser Peccator on November 19, 2022, 01:46:32 PM

"But they that are learned shall shine as the brightness of the firmament: and they that instruct many to justice, as stars for all eternity."
[Daniel 12:3]

Would this refer to the bright blue sky overhead or would it refer to the air that is the space between the clouds and the earth?

This could be referring to the brightness of the stars in the firmament, but again would those stars be under the clouds in the space between the clouds and the earth?

This brings up another thing I wonder about---

Is it possible the sky is blue because of the waters?

It never made sense to me that the sky would be blue but outer space would be black. I mean, the sun is in outer space too right?

Yet, the sky turns black at night and that is what happens to the color of water (as in the ocean) at night.

Miser Peccator · « **Reply #331 on:** November 19, 2022, 02:58:59 PM »

Tradman · « **Reply #332 on:** November 19, 2022, 03:02:58 PM »

Quote from: Ladislaus on November 19, 2022, 02:26:26 PM

That was the argument made by the those who disagreed that the firmament was spherical, but St. Augustine countered by referring to things like balls which were made of tent material into a spherical spherical shape. Fathers who believed that the firmament was a sphere thought it went all the way around, but that beneath the actual earth surface (on the other side) there was water and the entrance to Sheol (Hell). That's precisely how St. Hildegard described it as well. I believe that cassini once cited St. Hildegard as speaking of the world shaped like a sphere, but then ignored the text right there in the very passage he posted, where she said that no one could live on the underside because down there was water and the entrance to Sheol. She was clearly talking about the same thing that the Fathers discuss here.

Also very clear from the Fathers, they did not believe in gravity, and so they would have had no way of explaining how people could "stick" to the bottom of a ball, and none of the Fathers believed in Antipodaeans (people stuck upside down unear the earth). Pope Zachary in a letter to St. Boniface declared the notion that there were other people who lived beneath the earth to be heretical.

Yea, the spherical universe does make sense, and it seems the vault would only be needed on the top side where people are. The spherical earth does not make sense and there would be no need for a firmament on the under side because it's just the pit of hell.

Ladislaus · « **Reply #333 on:** November 19, 2022, 03:03:42 PM »

Quote from: Miser Peccator on November 19, 2022, 02:43:00 PM

This brings up another thing I wonder about---

Is it possible the sky is blue because of the waters?

It's possible, or also frozen oxygen is blue (there's some speculation that the firmament is made of solid/frozen oxygen). There are also the noble gases in the upper reaches of the atmosphere. I saw one intriguing video from a Flat Earther (though this isn't strictly related to Flat Earth), where he argues that during daylight, it's some of these noble gases that light up as the sun has an electric charge (rather than simply projecting light across the sky). He showed a lot of phenomena that seeemd to back up this theory, and he demonstrated how various noble gases turn that color of blue when subjected to electric charges, and it also explained a lot of the other colors you'll see during sunrise and sunset. There's a lot more about create that we don't understand than what we do.

This is frozen/solid oxygen --

There was one guy who CLAIMED to be a whistleblower who said that he worked in Antarctica, and that they would go to the edges and get samples of "sky ice" that they determined was made of frozen oxygen.

Tradman · « **Reply #334 on:** November 19, 2022, 03:03:51 PM »

Quote from: Miser Peccator on November 19, 2022, 02:43:00 PM

This could be referring to the brightness of the stars in the firmament, but again would those stars be under the clouds in the space between the clouds and the earth?

This brings up another thing I wonder about---

Is it possible the sky is blue because of the waters?

It never made sense to me that the sky would be blue but outer space would be black. I mean, the sun is in outer space too right?

Yet, the sky turns black at night and that is what happens to the color of water (as in the ocean) at night.

This makes sense.

Tradman · « **Reply #335 on:** November 19, 2022, 03:15:47 PM »

Quote from: Miser Peccator on November 19, 2022, 01:46:32 PM

Okay so a few questions then...

1. Where is the edge of this finite space?

Quote from: Miser Peccator on November 19, 2022, 01:46:32 PM

It is commonly held by both flat earthers and the Fathers that the periphery of the earth is flanked by mountains and/or ice shelves and said mountains/ice walls meet up with the lower part of the firmament on all sides. There's a scripture passage in Job* to this effect. The reason no one goes there is because the outer regions are like the off limits mountains in the Old Testament. Conditions are not hospitable to man.

According to the Bible, we live in a self-contained, three-tiered system {Heaven, Earth, Underworld}:
Job 1:7-8; 2:2-3; 37:12; 38:30-34; Gen. 28:12-17; Ex. 20:4; Num. 16:31-33; Deut. 5:8; 1 Sam. 28:13-14; 1 Chron. 29:11; 2 Chron. 6:4; Psa. 46:8-10; 113:6; 119:19; Isa. 14:9-11; 51:13-14; Joel 2:30; Amos 9:2; Luke 10:15; 16:19-31; Acts 2:19; Phil. 2:10; 1 Pet. 3:18-20; 2 Pet. 2:4-5; Jude 6; Rev. 5:3, 13; 9:1-11; 20:14
There is a solid firmament (dome/vault) over us:
Job 22:14; 37:18; Gen. 1:6-8, 20; Ex. 24:10; Psa. 104:2; Prov. 8:27-28; Isa. 40:21-22; 45:12; 66:1; Jer. 10:12; 51:15; Ezek. 1:22-26; Amos 9:6
God's throne sits above the heavens (waters):
Job 9:8; 22:14; 37:18; Deut. 26:15; Psa. 11:4; 29:3, 10; 33:13; 103:19; 104:2-3; 148:4; Isa. 40:21-22; 66:1; Jer. 10:12-13; Ezek 1:22-28; 28:2; Amos 9:6
The sun, moon and stars are in the firmament {and the stars shall fall to Earth}:
Gen. 1:14-18; Psa. 19:4-6; Isa. 34:4; Dan. 8:10; Matt. 24:29; Mark 13:25; 2 Peter 3:10; Rev. 6:13-14; 9:1; 12:4
There are “floodgates” (windows) in the firmament:
Gen. 7:11; 8:2; 2 Kings 7:2-19; Mal. 3:10
The Earth is inscribed in a circular (flat) fashion into something with 4 corners and surrounded by water:
Job 11:9; 26:10-11; 37:3; 38:12-18; Gen. 1:1-9; 49:25; Psa. 24:1-2; 72:8; 136:6; Prov. 8:27-29; Isa. 11:12; 13:5; 40:22; 41:8-9; 44:24; Ezek. 7:2; Dan. 4:10-11, Zech. 9:10; Matt. 4:8; 24:31; Rev. 7:1; 20:8
Earth is a geocentric, stationary world set on pillars:
Job 26:11; 38:4-6; Josh. 10:13; Psa. 19:4-6; 75:3; 104:5; Prov. 8:29; Ecc. 1:5; 1 Sam. 2:8; 2 Sam. 22:8; Joel 2:10; Zech. 12:1
For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness. 1 Corinthians 3:19
It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in man. - Psalm 118:8

Christian Topography by Cosmas Indeocopleustes

Job 26:7. "He stretcheth out the north over the void, and hangs the earth upon nothing." In both, the dust of the earth is gathered into a square box, as in Job 38:38*. "When the dust runneth into a mass and the clods cleave fast together?" which relies on the Septuagint translation used by Constantine of Antioch: "He has included cleave to earth and that it has been poured out as the dust of the earth.

'I have welded it as a square block of stone.' The use of the same verses suggests a common homiletic understanding of the biblical text as well as a shared conception of the structure of the universe.

Pg 125-127

According to Constantine of Antioch's homiletical interpretation, the verses from Genesis, Psalms, Isaiah, and Job provide a concrete understanding of the schematic model representing the pattern of the world.

Page 128

It is written: In the beginning God made the heaven and the earth. We therefore first depict along with the earth, the heaven which is vaulted and which has its extremities bound together with the extremities of the earth. To the best of our ability we have endeavored to delineate it on its western side and its eastern: for these two sides are walls extending from below to the vault above. There is also the firmament which in the middle is bound together with the first heaven and which, on its upper side has the waters according to divine scripture itself.

Ladislaus · « **Reply #336 on:** November 19, 2022, 03:26:54 PM »

Quote from: Miser Peccator on November 19, 2022, 02:58:59 PM

Yes, the notion of a pressurized atmosphere without a container and adjacent to a nearly-perfect vaccuм is to me a smoking gun that the NASA model is a lie. There's simply no explanation for it whatsoever. I've seen some lame attempts, but none of them come close to credibly explaining the phenomenon.

Now, if you look at the lightbulb above, that's an extremely weak vacuum. I've seen demonstrations where a stronger vacuum inside of a steel railroad tanker car caused the it to get crushed as if it were a cheap beer can. And the vaccuм of space (measured in torr) is orders of magnitude "stronger" than anything we've been able to reproduce here on earth. And we're to believe that those pathetic astronaut suits could withstand that? ... though it's a separate issue.

Sneedevacantist · « **Reply #337 on:** November 19, 2022, 06:17:06 PM »

The true cosmology of the Earth isn't really that important to me, so I'll go with flat Earth because it makes soyence cultists seethe and froth at the mouth the most

Tradman · « **Reply #338 on:** November 19, 2022, 07:22:44 PM »

Quote from: Sneedevacantist on November 19, 2022, 06:17:06 PM

The true cosmology of the Earth isn't really that important to me, so I'll go with flat Earth because it makes soyence cultists seethe and froth at the mouth the most

Good enough.

cassini · « **Reply #339 on:** November 20, 2022, 03:56:26 AM »

Quote from: Ladislaus on November 19, 2022, 01:58:46 PM

How about we use the unanimous interpretation of the Church Fathers?

And exactly what was that Ladislaus? That they unanimously believed in a physical firmament that kept physical waters above the sky from flooding the earth.' Doesn't the firmament or part of it that contains air that keeps the clouds above the Earth, as I said?

Tradman · « **Reply #340 on:** November 20, 2022, 09:03:47 AM »

Quote from: cassini on November 20, 2022, 03:56:26 AM

And exactly what was that Ladislaus? That they unanimously believed in a physical firmament that kept physical waters above the sky from flooding the earth.' Doesn't the firmament or part of it that contains air that keeps the clouds above the Earth, as I said?

More contradictions. People who believe earth is a globe actually think that level is curve. That the horizon means arc. That when scripture says the earth sits on pillars, they believe the earth hangs mid-air in space. When scripture says water, it really meant gas. Everything is backward for people want to believe earth is a globe. They need to understand that the occult law of reversal is the flagship of Satanism.

cassini · « **Reply #341 on:** November 20, 2022, 10:03:38 AM »

Quote from: Miser Peccator on November 19, 2022, 01:46:32 PM

Okay so a few questions then...
1. Where is the edge of this finite space?
In your model do you draw a circle around the entire solar system and that is the edge?
I've never seen a drawing of this model. Is there one you can provide?
2. Which way is up to heaven? Is it sideways or downways or any direction away from earth until you reach the edge?

3. If the firmament is the "space" between the clouds and the earth then it is not firm but air then how can we understand the following passages:

"And God said: Let there be lights made in the firmament of heaven, to divide the day and the night, and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days and years:"
[Genesis 1:14]

"To shine in the firmament of heaven, and to give light upon the earth. And it was so done."
[Genesis 1:15]

"And he set them in the firmament of heaven to shine upon the earth."
[Genesis 1:17]

In your model are the sun, moon and stars in that space or air between the clouds and the earth?

Are they under the clouds so as to be under "the waters"

"And under the firmament were their wings straight, the one toward the other, every one with two wings covered his body, and the other was covered in like manner."
[Ezechiel (Ezekiel) 1:23]

If the firmament is the space under the clouds what about the birds that fly above the clouds?

"God also said: Let the waters bring forth the creeping creature having life, and the fowl that may fly over the earth under the firmament of heaven."

Do the birds that fly above the clouds fly in Heaven? Is Heaven above the clouds?

"Then hear thou in heaven, in the firmament of thy dwelling place, and do all those things, for which that stranger shall call upon thee: that all the people of the earth may learn to fear thy name, as do thy people Israel, and may prove that thy name is called upon on this house, which I have built."
[3 Kings (1 Kings) 8:43]

Is heaven the air that is the space between the clouds and the earth? Is that where God dwells?

"Then hear thou in heaven, in the firmament of thy throne, their prayers, and their supplications, and do judgment for them:"
[3 Kings (1 Kings) 8:49]

Is God's throne in the space or air between the clouds and the earth?

"The Lord is my firmament, my refuge, and my deliverer. My God is my helper, and in him will I put my trust. My protector and the horn of my salvation, and my support."
[Psalms 17:3]

"The Lord is a firmament to them that fear him: and his covenant shall be made manifest to them."
[Psalms 24:14]

Is God like the air or the space between the clouds and the earth or is He something strong and solid?

"Be thou unto me a God, a protector, and a place of strength: that thou mayst make me safe. For thou art my firmament and my refuge."
[Psalms 70:3]

Again is God's strength like space or air or is it solid

"And over the heads of the living creatures was the likeness of the firmament, as the appearance of crystal terrible to behold, and stretched out over their heads above."
[Ezechiel (Ezekiel) 1:22]

Is the appearance of crystal like air or is it more like glass?

"And above the firmament that was over their heads, was the likeness of a throne, as the appearance of the sapphire stone, and upon the likeness of the throne, was a likeness as of the appearance of a man above upon it."
[Ezechiel (Ezekiel) 1:26]

"And I saw and behold in the firmament that was over the heads of the cherubims, there appeared over them as it were the sapphire stone, as the appearance of the likeness of a throne."
[Ezechiel (Ezekiel) 10:1]

In your model, where would you draw a picture of God's throne? Would it be beyond the edge that circles the solar system?

"But they that are learned shall shine as the brightness of the firmament: and they that instruct many to justice, as stars for all eternity."
[Daniel 12:3]

Would this refer to the bright blue sky overhead or would it refer to the air that is the space between the clouds and the earth?

1. Where is the edge of this finite space?In your model do you draw a circle around the entire solar system and that is the edge? I've never seen a drawing of this model. Is there one you can provide?

The universe is finite. It has to be if it rotates every 24 hours. Anything that rotates must form a circle. The edge is where it ends outside that circle. According to the Bible the sun and stars rotate around the Earth. Where the stars end that is the edge if you want to put it like that. Its shape is something like this below: inside is the space containing all the stars. Where that ends you can call the edge.

o

2. Which way is up to heaven? Is it sideways or downways or any direction away from earth until you reach the edge?

All people on Earth have the Earth under their feet when standing up. If one has only one foot then it is under their foot. Now we look up and you will see Heaven. Both Jesus and Mary went up that way. I can provide images of them ascending up that way to Heaven if you doubt me. Your quotes will also help us to know where Heaven is.

"And I saw and behold in the firmament that was over the heads of the cherubims, there appeared over them [HEAVEN] as it were the sapphire stone, as the appearance of the likeness of a throne."[Ezechiel (Ezekiel) 10:1]

3. If the firmament is the "space" between the clouds and the earth then it is not firm but air then how can we understand the following passages:

"To shine in the firmament of heaven, and to give light upon the earth. And it was so done."
[Genesis 1:15]

We use our brain and senses that God gave us. I can see the firmament, the sky God created with my eyes, that beautiful sky, both the firmament below the clouds and above it with the moon, sun and stars.
Is it possible you read firmament as FIRMament?

Dictionary
Definitions from Oxford Languages
firmament
/ˈfəːməm(ə)nt/
noun
LITERARY
the heavens or sky.

Is someone saying all the Fathers held to a firm firmament?

Tradman · « **Reply #342 on:** November 20, 2022, 11:07:20 AM »

Quote from: cassini on November 20, 2022, 10:03:38 AM

Is someone saying all the Fathers held to a firm firmament?

cassini · « **Reply #343 on:** November 20, 2022, 11:45:59 AM »

Quote from: Tradman on November 20, 2022, 09:03:47 AM

When scripture says water, it really meant gas.

Trying to debate with you Tradman and some others, is impossible. Take for example the statement above. Are you telling me I am so silly that I think water is gas. Or, are you telling me when water is mentioned in Scripture it really means gas. Then again, over here we call something funny as 'gas.' So when water is mentioned in Scripture is it just being funny? Trying to get a 1 on 1 or a 2 on 2 debate with flat-earthers is very difficult. Anyway, I got to hand it to you guys, you have chased every global earther off the forum. If you were a little more calm and reasonable, it could be an interesting subject. Calling us satanists, heretics, stupid and so on, is not how Jesus would teach a flat Earth, is it? Now that I think of it, did He?

Tradman · « **Reply #344 on:** November 20, 2022, 12:23:01 PM »

Quote from: cassini on November 20, 2022, 11:45:59 AM

Trying to debate with you Tradman and some others, is impossible. Take for example the statement above. Are you telling me I am so silly that I think water is gas. Or, are you telling me when water is mentioned in Scripture it really means gas. Then again, over here we call something funny as 'gas.' So when water is mentioned in Scripture is it just being funny? Trying to get a 1 on 1 or a 2 on 2 debate with flat-earthers is very difficult. Anyway, I got to hand it to you guys, you have chased every global earther off the forum. If you were a little more calm and reasonable, it could be an interesting subject. Calling us satanists, heretics, stupid and so on, is not how Jesus would teach a flat Earth, is it? Now that I think of it, did He?

You're the one that renamed water and called it clouds. You tell people that the earth is a ball that dangles in space. You redefined the meanings of words. Your paragraph about giggles, gas and globes made even less sense than your globe. No one called you a satanist or heretic, but if you're going to contradict what the Fathers, saints, and scripture teach, you'll just have to wrestle with that.

Poll

What model do you believe most accurately describes the cosmos?

Author Topic: Cosmology Poll (Read 64607 times)

Miser Peccator

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Miser Peccator

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Tradman

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Ladislaus

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Tradman

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Tradman

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Ladislaus

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Sneedevacantist

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Tradman

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cassini

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Tradman

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cassini

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Tradman

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cassini

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Tradman

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