Or maybe it just proves how magnificent God's creation is. Working perfectly and everything in order.

Yes, His creation is perfect.






Just one question about this model though...





Where is the firmament?





Firmament is in the Bible 23 times.  I don't see it here:





Where is it??



Is the Bible wrong?  23 times?

1.The Bible never said the firmament is visible or solid.

Thank you, Mr. Protestant, for your opinion, but Catholics understand Sacred Scripture based on the unanimous interpretation of the Church Fathers, and they unanimously believed in a physical firmament that kept physical waters above the sky from flooding the earth.

1.The Bible never said the firmament is visible or solid.

And God said: Let there be a firmament made amidst the waters: and let it divide the waters from the waters. - Genesis 1:6
A firmament: Strabus and Bede teach that there is an eternal heaven, because the firmament, which they take to mean the sidereal heaven, is said to have been made, not in the beginning, but on the second day: whereas the reason given by Basil is that otherwise God would seem to have made darkness His first work. Augustine says (Gen. ad lit. i, 9) that the heaven of the second day is the corporeal heaven. According to Damascene (De Fide Orth. ii) the firmament made on the second day is the starry heaven. Chrysostom understood that the heaven in 1:1 is the same heaven of the second day.

Sidereal/physical Heaven was to distinguish that Heaven from the Heaven in which God dwells (which is immaterial / spiritual ... although there are mansions prepared there for those who will dwell in Heaven with physical bodies, e.g. Our Lord, Our Lady, likely St. Joseph, and eventually all the human elect).  So you're begging the question pretending that this "sideral heaven" implies the vastness of space that holds the stars.  That's not how the Church Fathers understood it.  They believed it to be solid and that the stars (smaller lights) were in it.  There were debates among the Fathers about 1) what it was made of and 2) whether the sun, moon, stars move within it vs. whether they are fixed in the firmament and the firmament as a whole moves around the earth.  And the entire debate / argument / dispute had to do with the question of how is it possible for physical objects to move within another physical object (the firmament).  Those who did not believe it possible held that the firmament itself (being solid) moved around the earth.  Others believed that the firmament was made of some kind of quasi-solid substance (similar to some kind of hard plasma) where the solid matter could be displaced the same way as happens when objects move through water, and yet it was more solid than water so that water could not pass through it (since it kept actual physical waters out from atmosphere and from flooding the earth).

So because you believe that the stars are these giant suns, you falsely equate mention of "sidereal heaven" with some vast space.  To repeat, the Jєωs and the Church Fathers believed in THREE heavens.  First Heaven was Air (where birds fly, etc.), Second Heaven was the Firmament (in which the Sun, Moon, and Stars are), and the Third Heaven was where God and the angels are.  That second was also called the Sidereal/Physical Heaven and the mention of Sideral/Physical Heaven does not mean what you try to pretend it does.  So their cosmology involved the earth, with the First Heaven (sky, atmosphere) above it, and this First Heaven was made possible by this Firmament (the second Heaven or sidereal / physical heaven) keeping out these waters.  Then outside the waters, you had the Heaven of God (or Third Heaven).  They believed there was a gate in the Second Heaven (sideral/physical) that opened into some tunnel that passed through the waters and ultimately out into the Heaven of God (Third Heaven).  This is what St. Paul meant when he was describing someone (likely himself) who was taken up into the "Third Heaven" that were beyond the wildest human imagination.

If 1 Genesis were the only reference to explain the firmament, that alone concludes the firmament is solid. Considered the verse itself. We also know that the firmament is visible to some degree.  But first, the firmament was made by God to divide all the water He created in the beginning, that is, water is above the firmament, water is below the firmament, on earth.  Only something firm and solid is able to hold back presumably half of water created.  That's an incredible amount of water.  Scripture also likens the toughness of the firmament to God's power in Psalm 150:1,2  'Praise ye the LORD. Praise God in his sanctuary: praise him in the firmament of his power'.

But we also have the Fathers' take on how we should understand the firmament:  Origen called the firmament “without doubt firm and solid” (First Homily on Genesis, FC 71). Ambrose, commenting on Genesis 1:6, said, “the specific solidity of this exterior firmament is meant” (Hexameron, FC 42.60). And Saint Augustine said the word firmament was used “to indicate not that it is motionless but that it is solid and that it constitutes an impassible boundary between the waters above and the waters below” (The Literal Meaning of Genesis, ACW 41.1.61). 

As far as the firmament being visible, scripture tells us: 'The heavens declare the glory of God; And the firmament showeth his handiwork.' Psalm 19:1

There's so much more than this, the Fathers and scripture have not been silent about creation.  They describe the firmament so many ways saying it was pounded out like brass or glass, it is shining and glorious, shaped like a dome or tent, very lofty, and was even likened to the roof of a bath house. 

Lucky for us in this day and age, you can type words into a Bible search engine and chase down all the references and cross references.  For instance, the dividing of the water in Genesis is likened to the parting of the Red Sea, and even to baptism, all way too much to go into here.  Scripture is so incredibly rich!  You can also search through the Fathers' docuмents, even pick up tidbits like saint quotes from Wiki.  God has made the information available for those who knock, seek and ask.   

Thanks for the quotes.  Church Fathers unanimously believed it to be something solid.  That's why there was a debate about how the stars, sun, moon could move, since these are IN this firmament.  How can a solid object move through solid objects?  Some held that they didn't but that the firmament itself rotated around the earth, carrying these with them, others that these solid objects moved through the firmament.

1.The Bible never said the firmament is visible or solid.

And God said: Let there be a firmament made amidst the waters: and let it divide the waters from the waters. - Genesis 1:6
A firmament: Strabus and Bede teach that there is an eternal heaven, because the firmament, which they take to mean the sidereal heaven, is said to have been made, not in the beginning, but on the second day: whereas the reason given by Basil is that otherwise God would seem to have made darkness His first work. Augustine says (Gen. ad lit. i, 9) that the heaven of the second day is the corporeal heaven. According to Damascene (De Fide Orth. ii) the firmament made on the second day is the starry heaven. Chrysostom understood that the heaven in 1:1 is the same heaven of the second day.
Divide the waters from the waters: Whether, then, we understand by the firmament the starry heaven, or the cloudy region of the air, it is true to say that it divides the waters from the waters, according as we take water to denote formless matter, or any kind of transparent body, as fittingly designated under the name of waters. For the starry heaven divides the lower transparent bodies from the higher, and the cloudy region divides that higher part of the air, where the rain and similar things are generated, from the lower part, which is connected with the water and included under that name.
- Thomas Aquinas

‘Day 1: In the beginning God created Heaven, and Earth. And the earth was void and empty, and darkness was upon the face of the deep; and the spirit of God moved over the waters. And God said: Be light made. And light was made. And God saw the light that it was good; and he divided the light from the darkness. And he called the light Day and the darkness Night; and there was evening and morning one day.   

Day 2; And God said: Let there be a firmament made amidst the waters: and let it divide the waters from the waters. And God made a firmament, and divided the waters that were under the firmament, from those that were above the firmament, and it was so. And God called the firmament Heaven; and the evening and morning were the second day. God also said: Let the waters that are under the heaven [Earth] be gathered together into one place: and let the dry land appear. And it was so done. And God called the dry land, Earth; and the gathering together of the waters, he called Seas. And God saw that it was good.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Let us use logic when reading the above creation by God. Day 1, God created the Earth and the spirit of God moved over the waters. We see then God obviously had created an Earth covered in waters. Water we know is essential for life and was used by God to cover the Earth once again at Noah's Flood. He then created a firmament, one that divided the waters. The only logical meaning of this 'division' on day 2 is that God created a space between the divided waters. Now we know the clouds are waters so the only logical understanding of the firmament is that space between the clouds and the Earth, that space that contains the air totally necessary for life on Earth, that part of finite space God wanted us to know He created before the land-animals and mankind. We do not know of waters anywhere above the Earth other than clouds. Oh yes, the evolutionists keep looking for water outside in space in order to find life, and then intelligent life (aliens) outside the Earth. As it is heretical to believe in such life outside of Earth, those who place waters above the clouds are only contributing to this belief and search.

'And God called the firmament Heaven.' Heaven, as we all presume, is 'up there,' through the firmament into a finite space and on to heaven that exists outside of that space. Both Jesus and Mary, in their ascension and assumption up to heaven, went straight up from Earth to Heaven as depicted in images of both.

The only logical meaning of this 'division' on day 2 is that God created a space between the divided waters. Now we know the clouds are waters so the only logical understanding of the firmament is that space between the clouds and the Earth, that space that contains the air totally necessary for life on Earth, that part of finite space God wanted us to know He created before the land-animals and mankind. We do not know of waters anywhere above the Earth other than clouds.

'And God called the firmament Heaven.' Heaven, as we all presume, is 'up there,' through the firmament into a finite space and on to heaven that exists outside of that space. Both Jesus and Mary, in their ascension and assumption up to heaven, went straight up from Earth to Heaven as depicted in images of both.

Okay so a few questions then...

1.  Where is the edge of this finite space? 

In your model do you draw a circle around the entire solar system and that is the edge?  

I've never seen a drawing of this model.  Is there one you can provide?


2.  Which way is up to heaven?  Is it sideways or downways or any direction away from earth until you reach the edge?



3.  If the firmament is the "space" between the clouds and the earth then it is not firm but air then how can we understand the following passages:


[th]
 [/th]

"And God said: Let there be lights made in the firmament of heaven, to divide the day and the night, and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days and years:" [Genesis 1:14]

[th]5
 [/th]

"To shine in the firmament of heaven, and to give light upon the earth. And it was so done." [Genesis 1:15]

[th]6
 [/th]

"And he set them in the firmament of heaven to shine upon the earth." [Genesis 1:17]

In your model are the sun, moon and stars in that space or air between the clouds and the earth? 

Are they under the clouds so as to be under "the waters"?






[th]18
 [/th]

"And under the firmament were their wings straight, the one toward the other, every one with two wings covered his body, and the other was covered in like manner." [Ezechiel (Ezekiel) 1:23]

If the firmament is the space under the clouds what about the birds that fly above the clouds?






[th]
 [/th]

"God also said: Let the waters bring forth the creeping creature having life, and the fowl that may fly over the earth under the firmament of heaven."

Do the birds that fly above the clouds fly in Heaven?  Is Heaven above the clouds?






[th]8
 [/th]

"Then hear thou in heaven, in the firmament of thy dwelling place, and do all those things, for which that stranger shall call upon thee: that all the people of the earth may learn to fear thy name, as do thy people Israel, and may prove that thy name is called upon on this house, which I have built." [3 Kings (1 Kings) 8:43]

Is heaven the air that is the space between the clouds and the earth?  Is that where God dwells?





[th]9
 [/th]

"Then hear thou in heaven, in the firmament of thy throne, their prayers, and their supplications, and do judgment for them:" [3 Kings (1 Kings) 8:49]

Is God's throne in the space or air between the clouds and the earth?





[th]
 [/th]

"The Lord is my firmament, my refuge, and my deliverer. My God is my helper, and in him will I put my trust. My protector and the horn of my salvation, and my support." [Psalms 17:3]

[th]
 [/th]

"The Lord is a firmament to them that fear him: and his covenant shall be made manifest to them." [Psalms 24:14]

Is God like the air or the space between the clouds and the earth or is He something strong and solid?









[th]
 [/th]

"Be thou unto me a God, a protector, and a place of strength: that thou mayst make me safe. For thou art my firmament and my refuge." [Psalms 70:3]

Again is God's strength like space or air or is it solid?





[th]
 [/th]

"And over the heads of the living creatures was the likeness of the firmament, as the appearance of crystal terrible to behold, and stretched out over their heads above." [Ezechiel (Ezekiel) 1:22]

Is the appearance of crystal like air or is it more like glass?





[th]
 [/th]

"And above the firmament that was over their heads, was the likeness of a throne, as the appearance of the sapphire stone, and upon the likeness of the throne, was a likeness as of the appearance of a man above upon it." [Ezechiel (Ezekiel) 1:26]

[th]
 [/th]

"And I saw and behold in the firmament that was over the heads of the cherubims, there appeared over them as it were the sapphire stone, as the appearance of the likeness of a throne." [Ezechiel (Ezekiel) 10:1]

In your model, where would you draw a picture of God's throne?  Would it be beyond the edge that circles the solar system?






[th]23
 [/th]

"But they that are learned shall shine as the brightness of the firmament: and they that instruct many to justice, as stars for all eternity." [Daniel 12:3]

Would this refer to the bright blue sky overhead or would it refer to the air that is the space between the clouds and the earth?

By the way, for those wondering about tents and vaults fitting over a sphere, don't try that in geometry class, you'll get an F.

That was the argument made by the those who disagreed that the firmament was spherical, but St. Augustine countered by referring to things like balls which were made of tent material into a spherical spherical shape.  Fathers who believed that the firmament was a sphere thought it went all the way around, but that beneath the actual earth surface (on the other side) there was water and the entrance to Sheol (Hell).  That's precisely how St. Hildegard described it as well.  I believe that cassini once cited St. Hildegard as speaking of the world shaped like a sphere, but then ignored the text right there in the very passage he posted, where she said that no one could live on the underside because down there was water and the entrance to Sheol.  She was clearly talking about the same thing that the Fathers discuss here.

Also very clear from the Fathers, they did not believe in gravity, and so they would have had no way of explaining how people could "stick" to the bottom of a ball, and none of the Fathers believed in Antipodaeans (people stuck upside down unear the earth).  Pope Zachary in a letter to St. Boniface declared the notion that there were other people who lived beneath the earth to be heretical.