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Poll

What model do you believe most accurately describes the cosmos?

Modern Science:  earth revolves around barycenter of solar system as solar system moves through space, etc.
25 (24.5%)
Geocentrism:  earth is stationary, shaped like a globe, and the vast universe revolves around it
35 (34.3%)
Flat Earth:  earth is stationary, the surface we live on is flat, covered by a physical firmament, and the universe is closer than we're told
33 (32.4%)
Other
9 (8.8%)

Total Members Voted: 93

Author Topic: Cosmology Poll  (Read 96371 times)

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Re: Cosmology Poll
« Reply #315 on: November 19, 2022, 06:10:21 AM »
Or maybe it just proves how magnificent God's creation is. Working perfectly and everything in order.


Yes, His creation is perfect.






Just one question about this model though...





Where is the firmament?





Firmament is in the Bible 23 times.  I don't see it here:





Where is it??



Is the Bible wrong?  23 times?

Re: Cosmology Poll
« Reply #316 on: November 19, 2022, 10:48:54 AM »

Yes, His creation is perfect.






Just one question about this model though...





Where is the firmament?





Firmament is in the Bible 23 times.  I don't see it here:





Where is it??



Is the Bible wrong?  23 times?
1.The Bible never said the firmament is visible or solid.

And God said: Let there be a firmament made amidst the waters: and let it divide the waters from the waters. - Genesis 1:6
A firmament: Strabus and Bede teach that there is an eternal heaven, because the firmament, which they take to mean the sidereal heaven, is said to have been made, not in the beginning, but on the second day: whereas the reason given by Basil is that otherwise God would seem to have made darkness His first work. Augustine says (Gen. ad lit. i, 9) that the heaven of the second day is the corporeal heaven. According to Damascene (De Fide Orth. ii) the firmament made on the second day is the starry heaven. Chrysostom understood that the heaven in 1:1 is the same heaven of the second day.
Divide the waters from the waters: Whether, then, we understand by the firmament the starry heaven, or the cloudy region of the air, it is true to say that it divides the waters from the waters, according as we take water to denote formless matter, or any kind of transparent body, as fittingly designated under the name of waters. For the starry heaven divides the lower transparent bodies from the higher, and the cloudy region divides that higher part of the air, where the rain and similar things are generated, from the lower part, which is connected with the water and included under that name.
- Thomas Aquinas
2. Your pictures are drawn... It's just there to show relative distance between the planets, why do you think they will draw a firmament there? :facepalm:
And here's modern science finding something like a firmament:
https://www.timesnownews.com/technology-science/article/there-is-a-massive-dent-in-earths-protective-layer-and-its-getting-bigger-says-nasa/639132


Offline Ladislaus

  • Supporter
Re: Cosmology Poll
« Reply #317 on: November 19, 2022, 11:43:46 AM »
1.The Bible never said the firmament is visible or solid.

Thank you, Mr. Protestant, for your opinion, but Catholics understand Sacred Scripture based on the unanimous interpretation of the Church Fathers, and they unanimously believed in a physical firmament that kept physical waters above the sky from flooding the earth.

Offline Tradman

  • Supporter
Re: Cosmology Poll
« Reply #318 on: November 19, 2022, 11:48:10 AM »
1.The Bible never said the firmament is visible or solid.

And God said: Let there be a firmament made amidst the waters: and let it divide the waters from the waters. - Genesis 1:6

If 1 Genesis were the only reference to explain the firmament, that alone concludes the firmament is solid. Considered the verse itself. We also know that the firmament is visible to some degree.  But first, the firmament was made by God to divide all the water He created in the beginning, that is, water is above the firmament, water is below the firmament, on earth.  Only something firm and solid is able to hold back presumably half of water created.  That's an incredible amount of water.  Scripture also likens the toughness of the firmament to God's power in Psalm 150:1,2  'Praise ye the LORD. Praise God in his sanctuary: praise him in the firmament of his power'. 

But we also have the Fathers' take on how we should understand the firmament:  Origen called the firmament “without doubt firm and solid” (First Homily on Genesis, FC 71). Ambrose, commenting on Genesis 1:6, said, “the specific solidity of this exterior firmament is meant” (Hexameron, FC 42.60). And Saint Augustine said the word firmament was used “to indicate not that it is motionless but that it is solid and that it constitutes an impassible boundary between the waters above and the waters below” (The Literal Meaning of Genesis, ACW 41.1.61).   

As far as the firmament being visible, scripture tells us: 'The heavens declare the glory of God; And the firmament showeth his handiwork.' Psalm 19:1

There's so much more than this, the Fathers and scripture have not been silent about creation.  They describe the firmament so many ways saying it was pounded out like brass or glass, it is shining and glorious, shaped like a dome or tent, very lofty, and was even likened to the roof of a bath house. 

Lucky for us in this day and age, you can type words into a Bible search engine and chase down all the references and cross references.  For instance, the dividing of the water in Genesis is likened to the parting of the Red Sea, and even to baptism, all way too much to go into here.  Scripture is so incredibly rich!  You can also search through the Fathers' docuмents, even pick up tidbits like saint quotes from Wiki.  God has made the information available for those who knock, seek and ask.    

Offline Ladislaus

  • Supporter
Re: Cosmology Poll
« Reply #319 on: November 19, 2022, 12:01:22 PM »
1.The Bible never said the firmament is visible or solid.

And God said: Let there be a firmament made amidst the waters: and let it divide the waters from the waters. - Genesis 1:6
A firmament: Strabus and Bede teach that there is an eternal heaven, because the firmament, which they take to mean the sidereal heaven, is said to have been made, not in the beginning, but on the second day: whereas the reason given by Basil is that otherwise God would seem to have made darkness His first work. Augustine says (Gen. ad lit. i, 9) that the heaven of the second day is the corporeal heaven. According to Damascene (De Fide Orth. ii) the firmament made on the second day is the starry heaven. Chrysostom understood that the heaven in 1:1 is the same heaven of the second day.

Sidereal/physical Heaven was to distinguish that Heaven from the Heaven in which God dwells (which is immaterial / spiritual ... although there are mansions prepared there for those who will dwell in Heaven with physical bodies, e.g. Our Lord, Our Lady, likely St. Joseph, and eventually all the human elect).  So you're begging the question pretending that this "sideral heaven" implies the vastness of space that holds the stars.  That's not how the Church Fathers understood it.  They believed it to be solid and that the stars (smaller lights) were in it.  There were debates among the Fathers about 1) what it was made of and 2) whether the sun, moon, stars move within it vs. whether they are fixed in the firmament and the firmament as a whole moves around the earth.  And the entire debate / argument / dispute had to do with the question of how is it possible for physical objects to move within another physical object (the firmament).  Those who did not believe it possible held that the firmament itself (being solid) moved around the earth.  Others believed that the firmament was made of some kind of quasi-solid substance (similar to some kind of hard plasma) where the solid matter could be displaced the same way as happens when objects move through water, and yet it was more solid than water so that water could not pass through it (since it kept actual physical waters out from atmosphere and from flooding the earth).

So because you believe that the stars are these giant suns, you falsely equate mention of "sidereal heaven" with some vast space.  To repeat, the Jєωs and the Church Fathers believed in THREE heavens.  First Heaven was Air (where birds fly, etc.), Second Heaven was the Firmament (in which the Sun, Moon, and Stars are), and the Third Heaven was where God and the angels are.  That second was also called the Sidereal/Physical Heaven and the mention of Sideral/Physical Heaven does not mean what you try to pretend it does.  So their cosmology involved the earth, with the First Heaven (sky, atmosphere) above it, and this First Heaven was made possible by this Firmament (the second Heaven or sidereal / physical heaven) keeping out these waters.  Then outside the waters, you had the Heaven of God (or Third Heaven).  They believed there was a gate in the Second Heaven (sideral/physical) that opened into some tunnel that passed through the waters and ultimately out into the Heaven of God (Third Heaven).  This is what St. Paul meant when he was describing someone (likely himself) who was taken up into the "Third Heaven" that were beyond the wildest human imagination.