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Poll

What model do you believe most accurately describes the cosmos?

Modern Science:  earth revolves around barycenter of solar system as solar system moves through space, etc.
25 (25.3%)
Geocentrism:  earth is stationary, shaped like a globe, and the vast universe revolves around it
34 (34.3%)
Flat Earth:  earth is stationary, the surface we live on is flat, covered by a physical firmament, and the universe is closer than we're told
31 (31.3%)
Other
9 (9.1%)

Total Members Voted: 91

Author Topic: Cosmology Poll  (Read 63913 times)

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Offline Simeon

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Re: Cosmology Poll
« Reply #75 on: August 23, 2022, 06:06:23 PM »
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  • Here's another one, from a church, depicting the sun inside the globe (i.e. in the firmament, as Sacred Scripture teaches).  It looks like it has the blue of the sky on the top hemisphere and then it gets darker (with a bit of green) on the bottom hemisphere, suggesting that it's earth and grass.


    Okay, correct me if I am wrong, but a globe or sphere is often used to depict the entire finite material universe. This geometric symbol is especially useful in getting across the idea that the universe is not infinite. 

    And might it not be said that the symbol of a sphere is as often, if not more often, employed to depict the universe, than depict the earth?

    Offline Simeon

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    Re: Cosmology Poll
    « Reply #76 on: August 23, 2022, 06:15:10 PM »
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  • From the 16th century:

    This is truly interesting.

    Did not St. Thomas teach that the finitude of the material universe - that it had a beginning - is not a truth accessible to the unaided human intellect? That without Divine Revelation, it might be equally surmised that the universe is infinite?

    Can not this icon and others like it be intended to signify the finitude of the material universe? And also the absolute transcendence of God? And also the location of Heaven as outside the material universe? That's why I asked about Heaven below. Where is Heaven? The iconography suggests it is outside the material universe. I wish I knew more theology right now. :)

    P.S. My comment here can be applied to the other pics Lad has posted with Christ outside the globe.


    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: Cosmology Poll
    « Reply #77 on: August 23, 2022, 06:19:05 PM »
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  • Quote
    ‘They do not with regard to the phenomena seek for their reasons and causes but forcibly make the phenomena fit their opinions and preconceived notions and try to reconstruct the universe.’- Aristotle on the Pythagoreans
    An interesting quote, as it sums up the mentality of modern cosmologists and astronomers quite well; given that their cosmology is nothing less than Pythagorean (the biggest tell being that one acquires "gnosis" of the truths of the universe through mathematics).
    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]

    Offline Simeon

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    Re: Cosmology Poll
    « Reply #78 on: August 23, 2022, 06:23:13 PM »
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  • Yes, that's the one!  Thank you.  It could be more clear than it is there.
    I think we need to determine what is intended by the symbolism in these icons. I don't immediately sense that I am being schooled in cosmology. I sense that I am being schooled in theology. 

    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: Cosmology Poll
    « Reply #79 on: August 23, 2022, 06:31:01 PM »
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  • I think we need to determine what is intended by the symbolism in these icons. I don't immediately sense that I am being schooled in cosmology. I sense that I am being schooled in theology.

    The two coincide. Just as you noted:
    Did not St. Thomas teach that the finitude of the material universe - that it had a beginning - is not a truth accessible to the unaided human intellect? That without Divine Revelation, it might be equally surmised that the universe is infinite?
    As it is impossible to know, definitively, that there is a beginning of the universe outside of Divine Revelation; and God gives us just that, as well as other details pertaining to the cosmos being centralized over and around the earth. That is theological cosmology, in a sense. As it deals not only with the wisdom of God and the nature of the universe.

    The purpose here being, with this analysis of Catholic art, to show the mindset and conception of the earth that people had during the height of Catholicism in order to better understand what was commonly held before being muddled by "knowledge falsely so called" (1 Tim. 6:20).
    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]


    Offline Simeon

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    Re: Cosmology Poll
    « Reply #80 on: August 23, 2022, 06:32:30 PM »
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  • author of this fine article points out that by the 17th century ...

    After the Galileo revolution, it starts to get replaced with this --


    So it was only LATER that the "earth globe" replaces the original/traditional "snow globe" model.
    Now this is seriously interesting!

    But again, are we being schooled in cosmology or theology? 

    Take Fr. Faber for example. Most unfortunately, he was a theologian who nevertheless got snookered by false science, and in his theological works he sometimes makes examples using false science. He does not intend to teach the false science, he intends to teach sound doctrine. But he inadvertently and indirectly disseminates an error through a misapprehension caused by common usage.

    Likewise, as the fashions and the trends evolve, so do the symbols used by artists. But what do they intend to signify? 

    Remember, this is the age of the explorers and cartographers. They were the influences of their day, and these artists created the memes. 
      
    All this being said, I've gotten an education today in Catholic art, for which I thank you!

    Offline Simeon

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    Re: Cosmology Poll
    « Reply #81 on: August 23, 2022, 06:45:11 PM »
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  • The two coincide. Just as you noted:As it is impossible to know, definitively, that there is a beginning of the universe outside of Divine Revelation; and God gives us just that, as well as other details pertaining to the cosmos being centralized over and around the earth. That is theological cosmology, in a sense. As it deals not only with the wisdom of God and the nature of the universe.

    The purpose here being, with this analysis of Catholic art, to show the mindset and conception of the earth that people had during the height of Catholicism in order to better understand what was commonly held before being muddled by "knowledge falsely so called" (1 Tim. 6:20).
    And when the Catholic world - i.e., the hierarchy - got wind of the revolution, they buckled down on the earth's place and position in the material order - not it's material composition or shape. I've always sensed that the fight has to do with motion and position and absolute rest - and above all, with inerrancy of Sacred Writ.

    Offline Miser Peccator

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    Re: Cosmology Poll
    « Reply #82 on: August 23, 2022, 07:07:53 PM »
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  •  And also the location of Heaven as outside the material universe? That's why I asked about Heaven below. Where is Heaven? The iconography suggests it is outside the material universe. I wish I knew more theology right now. :)

    P.S. My comment here can be applied to the other pics Lad has posted with Christ outside the globe.

    This is a question I have asked as well.  Is Heaven outside the material universe?

    From what I can find it looks like the term "universe" refers more to what is described by Kabbala's Ein Sof--an ever expanding result of the Big Bang with no firmament enclosure.

    Along these lines I have pondered the title, "Mary, Queen of the Universe".

    As far as I can find, the traditional title is, "Mary, Queen of Heaven and Earth".

    Does anyone know of older churches under the "universe" title?

    There are only a couple churches I can find with the name "Mary, Queen of the Universe" and they are new and modern.

    The most notable one is in Orlando, FLA.  It serves Walt Disney World and Cape Canaveral.

    Apparently Orlando is considered by some to be the largest diocese in the universe because it includes the moon. ::)
    https://aleteia.org/2018/08/03/yes-the-moon-has-its-own-catholic-bishop/  

    The church was designated a shrine by Benedict XVI

    The use of the title "Mary, Queen of the Universe" is drawn from section 59 of Lumen gentium, the Dogmatic Constitution on the Church issued in 1964 by the Second Vatican Council, which stated: "Finally, the Immaculate Virgin, preserved free from all guilt of original sin, on the completion of her earthly sojourn, was taken up body and soul into heavenly glory, and exalted by the Lord as Queen of the universe...
    ...This usage could reflect Orlando's connection to nearby Cape Canaveral, the liftoff point for America's crewed space program, as spaceflight was likely the inspiration for the term."https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basilica_of_Mary,_Queen_of_the_Universe


    The place looks creepy with an "Ascended Master" looking resurrecifix:








    Mary and Jesus will be part of the fake alien New Age Ascended Masters show so I'm always looking out for that garbage.  You know, the pope says he is ready to baptize the aliens and as I posted the other day, even the Baltimore Catechism says there could be life on other planets out there in the "universe".


    Does anybody know of any ancient churches under the title "Mary, Queen of the Universe" or is this title only from the last century?
    I exposed AB Vigano's public meetings with Crowleyan Satanist Dugin so I ask protection on myself family friends priest, under the Blood of Jesus Christ and mantle of the Blessed Virgin Mary! If harm comes to any of us may that embolden the faithful to speak out all the more so Catholics are not deceived.



    [fon


    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: Cosmology Poll
    « Reply #83 on: August 23, 2022, 07:15:50 PM »
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  • The place looks creepy with an "Ascended Master" Antichrist-looking resurrecifix:


    Fixed it for you. I am of the opinion that the "resurrectifix" is nothing more than an icon of the Antichrist to come.
    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Cosmology Poll
    « Reply #84 on: August 23, 2022, 07:20:00 PM »
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  • I'm thinking about the speed at the edges of the universe, but can't quite get it.  I understand the concept, in that speed is somewhat relative to size ... to a point, but it seems to me that there is some notion of an absolute speed.  Is the perception of the effect of speed, however, related to whether there's any inertia that it encounters.  So if these outer bodies of the universe are going in circles, what is driving the motion?  Gravity?  I don't believe in gravity.  So what's causing them to turn?

    I don't believe in gravity, and at this time I hold the dense physical part of the universe to be orders of magnitude smaller than scientists claim.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Cosmology Poll
    « Reply #85 on: August 23, 2022, 07:26:11 PM »
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  • Now this is seriously interesting!

    But again, are we being schooled in cosmology or theology?

    Indeed, it could be artistic expression rather than a statement about cosmology.  These posts were mostly a response to 1) those who say that Christian art uses globes (OK, but that doesn't prove they believed in NASA's version of "globe")  and 2) Sungenis using DaVinci's Salvator Mundi as a symbol for (NASA) globe earth.

    Yet, it is interesting that this snow globe version got replaced after Copernicus and Galileo, and turned into the NASA-looking globe earth.

    And my main point is that, yes, indeed, (many of) the Church Fathers believed that the "world" was a globe, but given that they understood the firmament enclosure to be the boundaries of this world, their reference to the globular world doesn't necessarily (and in fact likely doesn't) correspond with NASA's globe earth on which we stand.  Fathers also believed that this globular structure was at the boundary of the waters, keeping waters out.  So if one reads this globe as the NASA model, then the waters are in contact with the earth.


    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: Cosmology Poll
    « Reply #86 on: August 23, 2022, 07:34:47 PM »
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  • Take Fr. Faber for example. Most unfortunately, he was a theologian who nevertheless got snookered by false science, and in his theological works he sometimes makes examples using false science. He does not intend to teach the false science, he intends to teach sound doctrine. But he inadvertently and indirectly disseminates an error through a misapprehension caused by common usage.
    Yes, he does. I recall him utilizing the "many worlds" heresy to speak of creatures living on other planets and whether or not they need their own Christ. If I can recall where, I'll quote it.
    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]

    Offline Charity

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    Re: Cosmology Poll
    « Reply #87 on: August 23, 2022, 09:40:43 PM »
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  • I'm thinking about the speed at the edges of the universe, but can't quite get it.  I understand the concept, in that speed is somewhat relative to size ... to a point, but it seems to me that there is some notion of an absolute speed.  Is the perception of the effect of speed, however, related to whether there's any inertia that it encounters.  So if these outer bodies of the universe are going in circles, what is driving the motion?  Gravity?  I don't believe in gravity.  So what's causing them to turn?

    I don't believe in gravity, and at this time I hold the dense physical part of the universe to be orders of magnitude smaller than scientists claim.
    Lad, since you say you don't believe in gravity, perhaps you might be interested in exploring quite a fascinating book Dr. Sungenis has authored on the subject of gravity as seen and linked below.

    You ask: "So if these outer bodies of the universe are going in circles, what is driving the motion?  Gravity?"  I trust you have considered that God may have set them in motion when He created them and that the angels have been put in charge of maintaining and overseeing their movement.


    https://gwwdvd.com/product/a-googolplex-of-tiny-blackholes-a-theory-of-gravity-inertia-and-the-speed-of-light-hardback/

    [url=https://gwwdvd.com/product/a-googolplex-of-tiny-blackholes-a-theory-of-gravity-inertia-and-the-speed-of-light-hardback/]A Googolplex of Tiny Blackholes: A Theory of the Cause of Gravity, Inertia and the Speed of Light Hardcover – July 23, 2016

    by Robert Sungenis


    For centuries scientists have been trying to find the physical cause of gravity, but to no avail. Newton, for all his scientific prowess, could only tell us how fast the apple fell to Earth, but he had little clue why it fell. Likewise, Einstein merely gave us a mathematical model of gravity (i.e., 'a warping of spacetime' ), but he could never explain what precisely space is or how it could warp. Others like Berkeley, LeSage, and Lorentz also gave us theories, but none were able to answer all that gravity requires to be explained. Borrowing from a concept that St. Hildegard of Bingen described in her many inspired visions of the world, Robert Sungenis has applied her insights to what we know from modern science, particularly quantum mechanics, and has theorized the physical cause of not only gravity, but the equally puzzling phenomenon of inertia; as well as telling us why the speed of light is sometimes c, and why it can exceed c. In the end, this theory of gravity, inertia and light helps us fully understand the account of creation in Genesis 1 in the light of modern science.

    ************************************************************************************************

    In the Introduction of Dr. Sungenis' book he states: "Each historical view of gravity has provided a step toward understanding its cause, but no theory has been able to bridge the gap and provide the actual cause.  This book seeks to take what is true from all the theories of gravity and combine it with a new understanding of the constitution of space, which in turn will explain the actual cause of not only gravity, but inertia; as well as why the speed of light is c in our terrestrial environment; the cause for "action-at-a-distance"; the cause for "entanglement"; the cause for the anomalous rotation rate for spiral galaxies; the cause for the strong and weak nuclear forces; and the reason gravity can travel beyond c.  In brief, it will be shown than understanding of space as composed of Planck-dimension particles (e.g., a googoplex of black holes) will provide the physical cause for all these phenomena."
    **************************************************************************************************[/b]


    Cf. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Googolplex




    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: Cosmology Poll
    « Reply #88 on: August 23, 2022, 10:01:04 PM »
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  • Yes, he does. I recall him utilizing the "many worlds" heresy to speak of creatures living on other planets and whether or not they need their own Christ. If I can recall where, I'll quote it.

    Here it is, in a thread I apparently made over a year ago. From The Precious Blood, ch. I, p.11-12.
    Quote
    God made the angels and the stars. The starry world is an overwhelming thing to think of. Its distances are so vast that they frighten us. The number of its separate worlds is so enormous that it bewilders us. Imagine a ray of light, which travels one hundred and ninety-two thou-sand miles in a second; and yet there are stars whose light would take a million of years to reach the earth. We know of two hundred thousand stars down to the ninth magnitude. In one single cluster of stars, eighteen millions of stars have been discovered between the tenth and eleventh magnitudes. Of these clusters men have already discovered more than four thousand. Each of these stars is not a planet, like the earth; but a sun, like our sun, and perhaps with planets round it, like ourselves. Of these suns we know of some which are one hundred and forty-six times brighter than our sun. What an idea all this gives us of the grandeur and magnificence of God! Yet we know that all these stars were created for Jesus and because of Jesus. He is the head and firstborn of all creation. Mary’s Son is the king of the stars. His Precious Blood has something to do with all of them. Just as it merited graces for the angels, so does it merit blessings for the stars. If they have been inhabited before we were, or are inhabited now, or will at some future time begin to be inhabited, their inhabitants, whether fallen and re-deemed, or unfallen and so not meddling to be re-deemed, will owe immense things to the Precious Blood. Yet earth, our little humble earth, will always have the right to treat the Precious Blood with special endearments, because it is its native place. When the angels, as they range through space, see our little globe twinkling with its speck of coloured light, it is to them as the little Holy House in the hollow glen of Nazareth, more sacred and more glorious than the amplest places in starry space.

    https://www.cathinfo.com/catholic-living-in-the-modern-world/fr-faber-on-the-cosmos-and-aliens/msg758059/#msg758059


    When I have time, I think I'm going to throw together a thread showing how a belief in "many worlds" (i.e. planets, like earth) is heretical.
    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]

    Offline Charity

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    Re: Cosmology Poll
    « Reply #89 on: August 23, 2022, 11:10:53 PM »
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  • When I have time, I think I'm going to throw together a thread showing how a belief in "many worlds" (i.e. planets, like earth) is heretical.

    Terrific.  I'm looking forward to it!

    As for that thread the upcoming talk may be of interest to some on this forum:
    • Dr. Robert Sugenis November 15, 2022 Did God create aliens? A critique of the new book by Paul Thigpen “Extraterrestrial Intelligence and the Catholic Faith” posted at https://isoc.ws/