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Poll

What model do you believe most accurately describes the cosmos?

Modern Science:  earth revolves around barycenter of solar system as solar system moves through space, etc.
25 (25.3%)
Geocentrism:  earth is stationary, shaped like a globe, and the vast universe revolves around it
34 (34.3%)
Flat Earth:  earth is stationary, the surface we live on is flat, covered by a physical firmament, and the universe is closer than we're told
31 (31.3%)
Other
9 (9.1%)

Total Members Voted: 91

Author Topic: Cosmology Poll  (Read 63906 times)

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Offline Charity

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Re: Cosmology Poll
« Reply #45 on: August 23, 2022, 12:37:43 PM »
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  •  I must say that I am bugged by the geocentrist position that concedes modern science's allegations regarding the size of the universe.

    I ran the numbers to calculate the circuмference of the universe given the diameter.  If the entire universe rotated around the earth once per day, then the objects at the outermost regions would be travelling at a rate of about 200,000,000 LIGHT YEARS PER MINUTE, or 3,333,333 LIGHT YEARS PER SECOND.

    I know that some claim that, well, God can do anything.  Of course.  But would he violate what appear to be laws of physics, and make matter travel that much faster than the speed of light?

    But how is it possible for items to move at 3,333,333 LIGHT YEARS PER SECOND.

    Seems to me that if you're a geocentrist, you absolutely have to hold that the universe is much smaller than science claims.  I think that even Donachie's numbers are way too big (you didn't give a size of the entire universe), and would still result on speed past the speed of light.

    Does anyone know how Dr. Sungenis explains this?



    Lad, you are certainly not the only one who in your own words is "bugged by the geocentrist position that concedes modern science's allegations regarding the size of the universe."  Since I have come to understand geocentrism have strongly suspected that -- and I know it was my own greatest difficulty to overcome at first -- for many, if not easily most, people who consider geocentrism as an alternative to heliocentrism, the most difficult issue to deal with is how in the world  an enormous (to put it mildly) universe could revolve around the Earth once every some 24 hours.  To do so the outer reaches of the universe would have to be traveling at "zillions times zillions" of miles per second -- obviously much, MUCH faster than the speed of light.

    You may wish to run the numbers for comparison's sake, but here is a comparison that was quite useful to me in helping me wrap my head around the incredible super astronomical speed involved with the entire universe going around the Earth every 24 hours.  Imagine if you will that you were  Planck size.  In other words imagine yourself to be REALLY small, i.e., 10 to the negative 35 of a meter.  (See https://www.htwins.net/scale2/)  Now imagine that you were standing on an object in relative terms the size of the Earth and that object sat motionless in a big bowl of water one meter in diameter.  Now, for you being only Planck size the outer reaches of that bowl would seem to be of an absolutely incredibly immense distance from the object you stood on.

    Now continuing with our thought experiment we could easily imagine that bowl being set on something that would be easily calculated to make it complete one complete revolution every 24 hours while the object at the center which you stood on remained motionless.  At the same time other relatively super tiny (compared to the size of the bowl) objects moved about freely while remaining in their same "local" area at the end of each 24 hour period.

    In our thought experiment the water in the bowl could be thought of as the ether in the universe.  All kinds of things are moving about freely in the water (just as they move about freely in the ether in the universe) while at the same time they are being carried around every 24 hours in one complete revolution.  I hope this thought experiment, albeit an imperfect one, helps some people as it certainly did me, come to grips with the incredibly enormous speed involved with our universe revolving around the motionless Earth every approximately 24 hours.

    Dr. Sungenis and his co-author Dr. Robert Bennett cover in detail the actual mechanics, if you will, of how the universe does indeed go around a motionless Earth every approximately 24 hours in their outstanding work, Galileo was Wrong: The Church was Right.

    Offline cassini

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    Re: Cosmology Poll
    « Reply #46 on: August 23, 2022, 02:22:06 PM »
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  • Interesting. What presuppositons was he operating under? Did he assume a globe Earth and used the distance between SA and Paris according to that model?

    Domenico Cassini was a surveyor and geodest as well as an astronomer. 

    Cassini’s talent as a surveyor was well known. In 1657 he was asked by none other than Pope Alexander VII (the pope who put Galileo's and other books on the Index) to resolve a dispute regarding the flow of the River Reno between Bologna and Ferrara that was causing flooding. For the next seven years Domenico Cassini was occupied with similar work around the Papal States, spending only a little of his time at astronomical studies.

    While working for Pope Alexander VII, Cassini sent a letter to the Jesuit Riccioli recommending the Immaculate Conception be celebrated as a special feast day. This happened 200 years later in 1854 when Pope Pius IX made it a dogma.

    King Louis XIV of France approved Cassini’s last great expedition. With the aid of his son Jacques Cassini (Cassini II) and others, he measured the arc of meridian from Paris north to Dunkirk and south to the boundary of Spain, and, in addition, he conducted various associated geodesic and astronomical operations that were reported to the Academy. Cassini knew that it would be virtually impossible to measure every kilometre of meridian from Pole to Pole. At best, a northern measurement would confirm a probable shape of the Earth. Consequently, they decided to measure where it was most convenient, restricting their efforts to Europe in the northern hemisphere.

    The results, published by Cassini II in 1720, showed the length of a meridian degree north of Paris was 111,017 meters or 265 meters shorter than one south of Paris (111,282 meters). This suggested that if this trend occurred in the southern hemisphere, the Earth has to be a prolate spheroid, not flattened at the poles as Newton proposed, but slightly pointed, with the equatorial axis shorter than the polar axis, that is, kind of egg-shaped rather than orange shaped.
       
    The Cassinis’ prolate spheroid, of course, was at odds with Newton’s oblate spheroid. Nevertheless, in spite of the Cassinian measurements, the British scientists, William Whiston, freemason John Theophilus Desaguliers, and John Keill continued to acclaim Newton’s theory of the Earth’s shape as the true one. Then, in 1732, Pierre Louis Moreau de Maupertuis joined Newton’s team to be followed by the prominent scientist Alexis Clairout. Indeed, such was their quest for a bulging Earth that they decided to try to falsify the observations and figures of the Cassinis and thus clear the way for a triumphant Newtonianism. To this end they decided they would conduct a new survey. This time though, they would measure two points on Earth where the differences would be greatest if it were an orange shape, at the Equator and at the Poles. In 1735, financed by King Louis XV this time, one group went to Peru under Pierre Bouguer and Charles Marie La Condamine and a year later another group went to Lapland under Maupertuis. The polar expedition - after the conditions nearly killed them - completed its mission by 1737. Measuring only one baseline, 14.3 kilometres long, they ‘found’ their bulge. On hearing this Voltaire dubbed Maupertuis:

    ‘“Marques of the Arctic Circle,” “dear flattener of the world and of Cassini,” and “Sir Isaac Maupertuis,” for his vindication of Newton.’



    Offline Simeon

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    Re: Cosmology Poll
    « Reply #47 on: August 23, 2022, 02:50:00 PM »
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  • I believe the earth is a globe and fixed, not even spinning and is the center of the universe. The real center is hell, which is a physical place inside the earth, and encapsulates the infinitisimally small "black hole" of nothingness, the real real center, from whence the creatio ex nihilo procured all creation from. This seems the most beautiful model to me, therefore true.
    I've never seen an explanation like this. I find it very intriguing. I'd have to think about whether "nothing" could inhabit a "physical place." Certainly, though, hell is in the center of a spherical earth, that neither moves nor spins. And I say this because of universal Catholic iconography.

    But I have a question for anyone, FE or Geo: Is Heaven part of the material universe? It does contain bodies, albeit glorified bodies. In Heaven is there space? We know there is no time. Yet Our Lady and St. Joseph, both of whom have their bodies now in Heaven, act upon earth, in time and space.

    Just wondering out loud.

    Offline Simeon

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    Re: Cosmology Poll
    « Reply #48 on: August 23, 2022, 02:53:34 PM »
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  • That's about what I'd accept if the globe were without a doubt proven to me. And it makes sense as the lowest of all things falls to the "bottom" (or, center, in this case), which is hell.

    In the past I ridiculed the idea of hell at the center of the universe, but upon further reflection of the order of all things, and Dante, it does make sense to me. I just don't buy the globe anymore.
    I'm not intellectually equipped to argue sphere versus globe. I only know that the Church explicitly teaches geo, whereas She does not explicitly teach either globe or flat earth. But Her traditional iconography is invariably globe. Also doesn't Hildegard hold for a globe? I believe with a moral certainty that Hildegard has actually seen the entire universe while in the state of ecstasy.

    Offline Simeon

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    Re: Cosmology Poll
    « Reply #49 on: August 23, 2022, 03:02:04 PM »
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  • So, given the one opinion here of geocentrism with a smaller universe, I must say that I am bugged by the geocentrist position that concedes modern science's allegations regarding the size of the universe.
    I have an intuitive sense that, just as evolution's billions of years is hogwash, so too is the cabal's assertion that the universe is infinitesimally vast. 

    The ѕуηαgσgυє wants man to believe he is infinitesimally distant from God, and uses lies about space and time to dissolve man from his Creator. Whereas the Holy Ghost Himself, the Spirit of Truth and the Love of the Father and the Son, tells us that the earth is His footstool. God is intimately involved with us, from Creation to Redemption. 

    Additionally the heavens exist for the earth, and the both of them exist for Man (Christ). Superficial infinitude does not comport with either the rational or the supernatural order - it does not comport with the raison d'etre of the material universe.


    Offline Simeon

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    Re: Cosmology Poll
    « Reply #50 on: August 23, 2022, 03:05:31 PM »
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  • I agree, and I have yet to see any real proof that the lights we see in the sky are actually stars (or suns).  I've seen very convincing evidence presented that the sun is not in fact a huge fusion machine, but is, rather, electrical in nature.  If the sun is electrical in nature, then everything else has been misinterpreted.
    I think the safest thing to do, is understand the sun to be a material body created to serve the earth (Man), for times and seasons. I like to think in terms of determinations and order. This way my mind does not veer off into places where it can be picked off.

    Offline Simeon

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    Re: Cosmology Poll
    « Reply #51 on: August 23, 2022, 03:07:29 PM »
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  • Probably, but I didn't look up the actual date for her beatification.
    She was greatly esteemed by the Mellifluous Doctor, Bernard. 

    That's good enough for me. 

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Cosmology Poll
    « Reply #52 on: August 23, 2022, 03:45:39 PM »
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  • I'm not intellectually equipped to argue sphere versus globe. I only know that the Church explicitly teaches geo, whereas She does not explicitly teach either globe or flat earth. But Her traditional iconography is invariably globe. Also doesn't Hildegard hold for a globe? I believe with a moral certainty that Hildegard has actually seen the entire universe while in the state of ecstasy.

    This is the constant source of confusion.  Yes, the WORLD is understood to be a globe, but that's due to the world including the firmament.  Part of the bias here that always interprets globe or sphere as NASA's globe/sphere is a denial that the Church Fathers, and all Catholics though the Middle Ages, believed that there is a dome / sphere / or at least hemisphere shaped solid firmament that surrounds the earth.  This does not translate into a belief that people walk around on a globe SURFACE of the earth.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Cosmology Poll
    « Reply #53 on: August 23, 2022, 04:02:17 PM »
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  • This (below) is from a book called "Life of the Blessed Virgin Mary" commissioned for the French king Francis I but was completed in 1548 for King Henry II.

    Please have a look a the "globe".  Sacred Scripture calls the earth (the world) God's footstool, and thus Our Lord's feet are on top of the globe.

    But this is NOT NASA's globe, a spherical surface on which people walk, but it's the globe created by the firmament surrounding our world.

    Dr. Sungenis used a picture from DaVinci for the cover of his book, but CLEARLY the DaVinci picture suggests the same thing as here below, so his book's cover picture actually exposes the error Sungenis makes throughout his analysis of the Church Fathers, assuming the the word "sphere" refers to NASA's globe rather than THIS notion of Globe.

    When I write my piece on "Sungenis:  Flat Dishonest" :laugh1: ... I'm going to use this picture here, since this is pretty much the crux of why he's misinterpreting the Church Fathers.



    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Cosmology Poll
    « Reply #54 on: August 23, 2022, 04:20:18 PM »
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  • Here's another one, from a church, depicting the sun inside the globe (i.e. in the firmament, as Sacred Scripture teaches).  It looks like it has the blue of the sky on the top hemisphere and then it gets darker (with a bit of green) on the bottom hemisphere, suggesting that it's earth and grass.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Cosmology Poll
    « Reply #55 on: August 23, 2022, 04:20:42 PM »
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  • From the 16th century:


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Cosmology Poll
    « Reply #56 on: August 23, 2022, 04:22:48 PM »
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  • 13th century mosaic ... it's a globe alright, but there are no people on surface of said globe.  Rather, its' the globe in which the sun and the stars are contained.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Cosmology Poll
    « Reply #57 on: August 23, 2022, 04:30:51 PM »
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  • a Traditional Icon, Christ the Divine Architect aka Christ the Geometer ... depicts the world as a circle (as per the compass -- compasses don't work on spheres), a circle of land (orbis terrarum) surrounded by a circular ocean.

    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: Cosmology Poll
    « Reply #58 on: August 23, 2022, 04:32:13 PM »
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  • This (below) is from a book called "Life of the Blessed Virgin Mary" commissioned for the French king Francis I but was completed in 1548 for King Henry II.

    Please have a look a the "globe".  Sacred Scripture calls the earth (the world) God's footstool, and thus Our Lord's feet are on top of the globe.

    But this is NOT NASA's globe, a spherical surface on which people walk, but it's the globe created by the firmament surrounding our world.

    Dr. Sungenis used a picture from DaVinci for the cover of his book, but CLEARLY the DaVinci picture suggests the same thing as here below, so his book's cover picture actually exposes the error Sungenis makes throughout his analysis of the Church Fathers, assuming the the word "sphere" refers to NASA's globe rather than THIS notion of Globe.

    When I write my piece on "Sungenis:  Flat Dishonest" :laugh1: ... I'm going to use this picture here, since this is pretty much the crux of why he's misinterpreting the Church Fathers.



    That's a good image. I'm going to save it, thanks.

    One of these things is not like the other:

    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Cosmology Poll
    « Reply #59 on: August 23, 2022, 04:40:16 PM »
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  • That's a good image. I'm going to save it, thanks.

    Didn't you have one from a Dutch artist that was really interesting?  I can't find it now.