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Poll

What model do you believe most accurately describes the cosmos?

Modern Science:  earth revolves around barycenter of solar system as solar system moves through space, etc.
25 (24.5%)
Geocentrism:  earth is stationary, shaped like a globe, and the vast universe revolves around it
35 (34.3%)
Flat Earth:  earth is stationary, the surface we live on is flat, covered by a physical firmament, and the universe is closer than we're told
33 (32.4%)
Other
9 (8.8%)

Total Members Voted: 93

Author Topic: Cosmology Poll  (Read 96450 times)

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Offline Emile

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Re: Cosmology Poll
« Reply #350 on: November 21, 2022, 08:57:16 PM »
...
So the common explanation (except for raw gravity) is that there not enough air pressure at the top edges of the atmosphere to push the molecules/atoms out into the vacuum, since that's actually what's happening (vacuums don't actually "suck" from a physics standpoint), but this is just kicking the can down the road, because it doesn't explain why the entropy does not cause the more dense (higher pressure) molecules to push into the less dense areas, and the only plausible explanation for this is that this is all taking place within a container with a finite volume.
If we are in a sealed container of finite volume, pressure should be equal, regardless of altitude (see Pascal's Law). Either Pascal's Law is incorrect (which it doesn't seem to be) or we're missing some factor(s).

Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Cosmology Poll
« Reply #351 on: November 21, 2022, 10:09:56 PM »
If we are in a sealed container of finite volume, pressure should be equal, regardless of altitude (see Pascal's Law). Either Pascal's Law is incorrect (which it doesn't seem to be) or we're missing some factor(s).

Well, there's some force that is pushing it downwards resulting in the heavier molecules being "down" and the lighter ones going "up" ... and it isn't gravity.  Strength of gravity does not suffices to overcome entropy.  Without a container there can be NO pressure.

You can put liquids of different densities into a container, then perhaps add some gases on top of the liquids, and the heavier ones will sink and the lighter ones go up, and they form layers, and the upper layers have lower density than the higher layers.  Now put the same liquids into an open-top container and put a vacuum at the top.  Not only will the gases in the upper section evacuate, but the liquids will also turn to gas and evaporated out of the container.  Obviously how much evaporates depends on how much area there is to fill, but with alleged space, the volume is infinite.

So the pressures do not equalize depending upon the total size of the container and the total volume of matter within the container.


Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Cosmology Poll
« Reply #352 on: November 21, 2022, 10:22:43 PM »
You know about inches of water and inches of mercury as a measurement of pressure, and that as you go deeper under water in a lake, or wherever, pressure increases. Why this pressure increase?

That pressure obviously due to the "weight" of matter above the point.  Billions of gallons of water are pretty heavy.

But with a vacuum on top the "weight" of matter will get lighter and lighter as the upper layers press out into the vacuum of space, and that would continue until the liquids themselves are turned into gas and eventually evacuated.

It all requires a container and cannot happen without a container.

This should be demonstrable on a small scale if gravity can produce this effect.  Put some dirt into a chamber, perhaps a cup of water here or there.  The introduce gases in the same mixture / proportions that we would have in our atmosphere, and fill the remaining space to within a reasonable average PSI of the earth's atmosphere.  Over time, not sure how long, but we should see the heaver gases lower down, closer to the dirt and the lighter gases higher up.  Not sure how long it would take to settle out that way.  But whether you put a tiny amount of gas in (tiny air pressure) or a larger amount (high air pressure), introduce a vacuum to the open top of the chamber and not only will the gases dissipate, but the water will evaporated (turning directly into gas) and it too will spread out to fill the available vacuum area.  Gravity does not suffice to keep those gases nor the water in the lower chamber, nor does the explanation of lower gas pressure at the upper reaches of the atmosphere.  Even with tiny air pressure, very quickly the water will begin to transform into gas and will then evacuate the lower chamber.  This debunks the explanation that a combination of gravity and the low air pressure at higher altitudes explains why the the earth's atmosphere and oceans do not evacuate the earth out into space.

You could argue that there's some unknown principle or force keeping things bound to the earth, but modern science has articulated no such explanation.

Some of us accept the unanimous Patristic interpretation of Sacred Scripture that there is a solid firmament above the atmosphere that keeps it contained.  Others prefer to bow to modern science.  Science is proven wrong over and over and over again, so much so that only a fool would put much trust in them, especially when you see how the origins of modern science are clearly driven by the atheistic agenda.  They assured everyone that the Big Bang was fact for several generations now, that the universe is expanding, that gravity is the primary force that governs the movements of the galaxies, stars, and planets, but this has been so badly debunked that they had to make up this phantom "dark matter", which allegedly must constitute 80% of the mass of the entire universe to keep their theories on life support, even though no one has ever detected this dark matter.

Offline Emile

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Re: Cosmology Poll
« Reply #353 on: November 22, 2022, 12:12:39 AM »
Well, there's some force that is pushing it downwards resulting in the heavier molecules being "down" and the lighter ones going "up" ... and it isn't gravity.  Strength of gravity does not suffices to overcome entropy.  Without a container there can be NO pressure.

You can put liquids of different densities into a container, then perhaps add some gases on top of the liquids, and the heavier ones will sink and the lighter ones go up, and they form layers, and the upper layers have lower density than the higher layers.  Now put the same liquids into an open-top container and put a vacuum at the top.  Not only will the gases in the upper section evacuate, but the liquids will also turn to gas and evaporated out of the container.  Obviously how much evaporates depends on how much area there is to fill, but with alleged space, the volume is infinite.

So the pressures do not equalize depending upon the total size of the container and the total volume of matter within the container.
Pressure and density are two separate and distinct things. Let's use a down-to-earth illustration. Take a nice t-bone steak, cut off a piece of the meat and chew it. Now take the bone and chew that with the same amount of force that you used on the meat. Now, unless the cow came from Chernobyl Farms, the same amount of force that shredded the meat will not penetrate the bone. The bone is obviously more dense than the meat, but the force (pressure) applied to each is identical.

Pressure in a sealed vessel and Pascal's Law. Regardless of what combination of fluids and/or gases, the pressure should be equal in all areas of a sealed vessel. The materials may stratify according to their varying densities, but the pressure is unaffected.

Nature of the firmament:
If the firmament is impermeable, we should not have a change in pressure with a change in altitude. The air may contain oxygen at low altitude and helium at high altitude but the pressure should be identical. But we've all observed that it isn't that way; anyone who has driven up or down even moderate hills has felt their ears "pop" because of a change in pressure.

If the firmament is permeable, and surrounded by negative pressure (vacuum), and the leak rate is high enough, we would see a pressure decrease at higher altitudes first, but, before long, would notice it at low altitude. Man would've died long ago.

So when we observe that air pressure increases at lower altitude and that materials always stratify with the densest materials toward earth, it points to there being something (some might be tempted to term it "a force") that draws material things toward earth.

P.S. In case it's not clear, I'm not supporting a "NASA" view of creation nor arguing for the sake of arguing. I'm actually interested in this subject but I find the answers given on certain points quite lacking.



Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Cosmology Poll
« Reply #354 on: November 22, 2022, 12:28:51 AM »
Pressure and density are two separate and distinct things.

Yes, but they're directly related and, depending on the context of what's being discussed, can be used interchangeably:
Quote
Pressure is the measure of force acting on a unit area. Density is the measure of how closely any given entity is packed, or it is the ratio of the mass of the entity to its volume. The relation between pressure and density is direct. Change in pressure will be reflected in a change in density and vice-versa.