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Author Topic: Copernicus's reasoning that the universe and the earth are global  (Read 3832 times)

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Offline cassini

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Re: Copernicus's reasoning that the universe and the earth are global
« Reply #30 on: April 29, 2018, 03:35:16 PM »
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  • What garbage.
    If you reject Pythagoras's theories as heresies, then you MUST reject his globe earth theory.

    In his book Pythagoras, Bruno Galileo, by Alberto Martinez, he lists about 50 heresies and false doctrines of the Pythagoreans. I read them all. I could not find any global Earths even mentioned.


    Offline Theosist

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    Re: Copernicus's reasoning that the universe and the earth are global
    « Reply #31 on: April 29, 2018, 03:42:45 PM »
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  • Root problem:

    Drawing the false dichotomy between interpreting scripture “literally” or “allegorically”, so that it either tells us about the “physical world” or is a kind of moral fable.

    Of course, this notion of the “physical world” is presupposes by both sides of the argument, whereby it becomes impossible for either to understand how the Biblical texts can be referring to the very structures of the cosmos without matching that of their imagined “physical world”. It’s either, for them, primitive astronomy or a nice bedtime story to relay a “religious truth” (religious in an entirely exoteric sense).

    You’re both idiots.

    But the flat-earthers, in particular, are the biggest idiots for imposing a modern materialistic view of the ontology and structure of the cosmos onto ancient texts. As if the ancients held to your crypto-materialist metaphysics, and as if, talking about planets and heavens and elements and forms thereof, they were talking about these things as you understand them with your naive physicalist idea of the cosmos that you ironically SHARE with your “opponents”.
    your opponent


    Offline Meg

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    Re: Copernicus's reasoning that the universe and the earth are global
    « Reply #32 on: April 29, 2018, 03:47:15 PM »
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  • The Church Fathers who weighed in on the shape of the earth teach the earth is flat with a dome, and they base it on Scripture.

    True. What else could they have based it on? Scripture depicts a flat earth, as the ancient Hebrews believed. 
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline cassini

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    Re: Copernicus's reasoning that the universe and the earth are global
    « Reply #33 on: April 29, 2018, 04:11:46 PM »
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  • Root problem:

    Drawing the false dichotomy between interpreting scripture “literally” or “allegorically”, so that it either tells us about the “physical world” or is a kind of moral fable.

    Of course, this notion of the “physical world” is presupposes by both sides of the argument, whereby it becomes impossible for either to understand how the Biblical texts can be referring to the very structures of the cosmos without matching that of their imagined “physical world”. It’s either, for them, primitive astronomy or a nice bedtime story to relay a “religious truth” (religious in an entirely exoteric sense).

    You’re both idiots.

    But the flat-earthers, in particular, are the biggest idiots for imposing a modern materialistic view of the ontology and structure of the cosmos onto ancient texts. As if the ancients held to your crypto-materialist metaphysics, and as if, talking about planets and heavens and elements and forms thereof, they were talking about these things as you understand them with your naive physicalist idea of the cosmos that you ironically SHARE with your “opponents”.
    your opponent

    No doubt included in your 'idiots' are all the Fathers, St Robert Bellarmine, popes up to 1741, and the Church itself as decreed by Pope Paul V in 1616.

    Then there is me, as a geocentrist, who has examined every single piece of scientific investigation into the question as to whether the earth orbits the sun, or the sun, planets and stars rotate around the Earth, that is, Newton's theories, Bradley's stellar aberration, Foucault's pendulum, Bessels stellar paralax, Airy's aberration experiment, Michelson & Morley Experiment, Lodge's ether experiment, Maxwell's electromagnetic laws based on a fixed Earth, and finally Einstein's Special Theory of Relativity, and finally Walter van der Kamp's stellar aberration and cosmic models.

    After Einstein science has admitted there is no human way to know if geocentrism or heliocentrism is true. Most of the evidence shows the earth is static and at the center of tghe universe (the CMB).

    And you Theosist think you know based on your own thinking which makes others 'idiots.'

    We need posters like you here on CIF Theoist like we need fleas or dementia.

    Offline Theosist

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    Re: Copernicus's reasoning that the universe and the earth are global
    « Reply #34 on: April 29, 2018, 04:39:00 PM »
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  • True. What else could they have based it on? Scripture depicts a flat earth, as the ancient Hebrews believed.
    Subtlety is just lost on you crypto-materialists - on both sides of this “debate”.
    The naïveté of how you must see the nature of reality as you go about your daily lives must be mind-boggling enough to those who are schooled in - and understand - what the ancients actually believed, but when you go out of your way to apply this bizarre and thoroughly modern mode of thought to their texts in order to concoct stories about a world so absurd that they - be it Moses, Plato, Trismegistus or whoever - would have laughed till their bladders gave way, that is just offensive to common decency.
    Bereshit bara Elohim et hashamayim ve'et ha' arets.

    Literally: In the beginning God created ALEPH TAV Heaven and Earth. 

    Literally one of the greatest sentences ever written on cosmology on every level and an indispensable key to understanding reality, and one that the rabbis poured over and do to this day.

    And you people think it’s speaking of the ground and the sky as you understand them ...

    No wonder books like the Song of Songs, the most deep and profound of the mystical treatises of the Bible, encoding an entire method of theosis that St. Thomas’s Aurora Consurgens only alludes to, is lost on you as a love song at worst or seen only for containing some references to the relationship between Christ and His Church at best.

    Put me as a seal upon thy heart, as a seal upon thy arm, for love is strong as death, jealousy as hard as hell, the lamps thereof are fire and flames. Many waters cannot quench charity, neither can the floods drown it: if a man should give all the substance of his house for love, he shall despise it as nothing

    Oh, the inadequacy of translating the divine Hebrew language. Those same deep waters of tohu and bohu over which the Spirit of God hovered, but what do you know of the meaning of Shin and Mem and Aleph between them?

    Arguing over the “shape” of the Earth and whether there’s a “glass” dome in the sky, all the while PRETENDING to KNOW what the nature is of that which lies outside of your sense of sight.

    :fryingpan:

    Is the Earth round or flat? What does that even MEAN? :facepalm:



    Offline Meg

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    Re: Copernicus's reasoning that the universe and the earth are global
    « Reply #35 on: April 29, 2018, 04:43:10 PM »
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  • Subtlety is just lost on you crypto-materialists - on both sides of this “debate”.
    The naïveté of how you must see the nature of reality as you go about your daily lives must be mind-boggling enough to those who are schooled in - and understand - what the ancients actually believed, but when you go out of your way to apply this bizarre and thoroughly modern mode of thought to their texts in order to concoct stories about a world so absurd that they - be it Moses, Plato, Trismegistus or whoever - would have laughed till their bladders gave way, that is just offensive to common decency.
    Bereshit bara Elohim et hashamayim ve'et ha' arets.

    Literally: In the beginning God created ALEPH TAV Heaven and Earth.

    Literally one of the greatest sentences ever written on cosmology on every level and an indispensable key to understanding reality, and one that the rabbis poured over and do to this day.

    And you people think it’s speaking of the ground and the sky as you understand them ...

    No wonder books like the Song of Songs, the most deep and profound of the mystical treatises of the Bible, encoding an entire method of theosis that St. Thomas’s Aurora Consurgens only alludes to, is lost on you as a love song at worst or seen only for containing some references to the relationship between Christ and His Church at best.

    Put me as a seal upon thy heart, as a seal upon thy arm, for love is strong as death, jealousy as hard as hell, the lamps thereof are fire and flames. Many waters cannot quench charity, neither can the floods drown it: if a man should give all the substance of his house for love, he shall despise it as nothing

    Oh, the inadequacy of translating the divine Hebrew language. Those same deep waters of tohu and bohu over which the Spirit of God hovered, but what do you know of the meaning of Shin and Mem and Aleph between them?

    Arguing over the “shape” of the Earth and whether there’s a “glass” dome in the sky, all the while PRETENDING to KNOW what the nature is of that which lies outside of your sense of sight.

    :fryingpan:

    Is the Earth round or flat? What does that even MEAN? :facepalm:

    What (false) religion are you? You are obviously not Catholic.

    You seem to adhere to some sort of esoteric/gnostic/kabbalist crap. 
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Theosist

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    Re: Copernicus's reasoning that the universe and the earth are global
    « Reply #36 on: April 29, 2018, 04:54:09 PM »
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  • Quote
    And you Theosist think you know based on your own thinking which makes others 'idiots.'

    We need posters like you here on CIF Theoist like we need fleas or dementia.

    As expected, completely lost on you.

    You turn comments about ontology into matters concerning materialist science that presupposes a particular view of reality - a view which, as I have already intimated, you share with the majority of your opponents, including those scientists whose name you cite.

    You’re arguing over the arrangement of apples in a presupposed basket, and I’m talking about what those apples really are, what it means for them to be arranged, the life of the tree they grow on, and whether there’s any basket at all.

    But this level of discourse is lost upon crypto-materialists and their world which consists of a basket, in which things exist as apples.

    Offline Meg

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    Re: Copernicus's reasoning that the universe and the earth are global
    « Reply #37 on: April 29, 2018, 05:04:21 PM »
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  • You’re arguing over the arrangement of apples in a presupposed basket, and I’m talking about what those apples really are, what it means for them to be arranged, the life of the tree they grow on, and whether there’s any basket at all.

    What a load of existentialist nonsense. 
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29


    Offline Theosist

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    Re: Copernicus's reasoning that the universe and the earth are global
    « Reply #38 on: April 29, 2018, 05:28:07 PM »
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  •  Besides the fact that I, as far as physical nature is concerned, believe in stationary Earth which can be seen, depending on the metric or more broadly the topology employed, as the physical centre of the physical world.

    So your naming Bellarmine as a target of my criticism is misplaced, as are your assumptions about my beliefs (again based in false dichotomies created by your crypto-materialist views)

    But I know the level of your “research” into physics and arguments. Apropos Einstein, you quote extensively as authorities the work of two “social scientists”, Harry Collins and Trevor Pinch, who are notorious Social Constructivists and epistemological relativists, N.M. Gwynne, whose only qualifications are in languages and accounting, and Alfred Arthur Lynch, a dilettante engineer and politician.

    I state this not as an ad homiem but point to these facts because no actual arguments are given, merely statements like “General Theory [GTR], involves no major challenge to the intellect in order to be understood. [Einstein’s] Relativity is not merely nonsense, it is simple nonsense;” which amount to nothing more than appeals to their non-existent authority. Tensor calculus and differential geometry involve no major challenge to the intellect? I’m pretty sure every third year physics student I have ever known, including myself, would respectfully disagree. Again, no actual argument is ever made by you. Not one set of equations of motions is ever presented or solved: just scoffing at one thing after another, especially at any mathematics, without any logical structure linking one to the next and to a deductive conclusion.

    And I don’t even say these things as a believer in “Big Bang cosmology”. 

    In fact, I’m a young Earth creationist who takes Genesis very seriously as a divinely revealed cosmogonic treatise that is not to be interpreted “allegorically”. I just don’t interpret it as a crypto-materialist. But then you obviously can’t get your head around what that means.

    Offline Theosist

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    Re: Copernicus's reasoning that the universe and the earth are global
    « Reply #39 on: April 29, 2018, 06:21:21 PM »
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  • What (false) religion are you? You are obviously not Catholic.

    You seem to adhere to some sort of esoteric/gnostic/kabbalist crap.
    I affirm every single teaching de fide of the Church, in its literal and traditionally received sense, whether formally defined or of her general teaching alone, and with those the unanymous consent of the Fathers on all matters of divine revelation.
    So what now?
    Your statement about “esoteric/gnostic/kabbalist crap” is  meaningless. 
    esoteric:
    intended for or likely to be understood by only a small number of people with a specialized knowledge or interest.

    That applies not only to most philosophy and much of Catholic mysticism (have you understood The Cloud of Unknowing or Maximos the Confessor, dear?), but indeed to texts of the Bible (a case in point being The Apocalypse if St. John). Do you know ANYTHING about (orthodox!) pre-Christian Hebrew tradition? 

    Gnosticism:




    Offline Meg

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    Re: Copernicus's reasoning that the universe and the earth are global
    « Reply #40 on: April 29, 2018, 06:26:57 PM »
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  • I affirm every single teaching de fide of the Church, in its literal and traditionally received sense, whether formally defined or of her general teaching alone, and with those the unanymous consent of the Fathers on all matters of divine revelation.
    So what now?
    Your statement about “esoteric/gnostic/kabbalist crap” is  meaningless.
    esoteric:
    intended for or likely to be understood by only a small number of people with a specialized knowledge or interest.

    That applies not only to most philosophy and much of Catholic mysticism (have you understood The Cloud of Unknowing or Maximos the Confessor, dear?), but indeed to texts of the Bible (a case in point being The Apocalypse if St. John). Do you know ANYTHING about (orthodox!) pre-Christian Hebrew tradition?

    Gnosticism:

    Nonsense. You're not Catholic.
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29


    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Copernicus's reasoning that the universe and the earth are global
    « Reply #41 on: April 29, 2018, 07:22:18 PM »
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  • Bereshit bara Elohim et hashamayim ve'et ha' arets.

    Literally: In the beginning God created ALEPH TAV Heaven and Earth.

    Literally one of the greatest sentences ever written on cosmology on every level and an indispensable key to understanding reality, and one that the rabbis poured over and do to this day.
    The literal translation of the Hebrew sentence above is "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.  The word spelled aleph tav is pronounced "et" and is a definite object marker.  It occurs over 11,000 times in the Old Testament with that as its function the vast majority of times.

    If you want to ascribe some sort of mystical significance to it because this word is the first and last letters of the Hebrew alphabet (comparable to the Greek "alpha omega" used as a title for Christ) I suppose you can, but that is not its literal meaning.

    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: Copernicus's reasoning that the universe and the earth are global
    « Reply #42 on: April 29, 2018, 08:16:26 PM »
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  • I didn't think I needed to word for word repeat what any 13 year old learns in school, even for a moron like Happenby.
    .
    Perhaps you did the right thing, then, for she hasn't returned to argue about it. 
    She thinks that Pythagorean mathematics is demonic, you know. Maybe you scared her away! 
    .--. .-.-.- ... .-.-.- ..-. --- .-. - .... . -.- .. -. --. -.. --- -- --..-- - .... . .--. --- .-- . .-. .- -. -.. -....- -....- .--- ..- ... - -.- .. -.. -.. .. -. --. .-.-.

    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: Copernicus's reasoning that the universe and the earth are global
    « Reply #43 on: April 29, 2018, 08:36:25 PM »
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  • .
    A square park has a running track around it where people come to get exercise most days of fair weather. On the north side there is a water fountain alongside the track located x feet west of the northeast corner of the park. Jill and Nancy are running counterclockwise around the track together, when Nancy stops to get a drink at the fountain but Jill keeps running along the track. The track measures 3x feet from the fountain to the northwest corner, where Jill turns left and heads south on the track. Nancy decides to cut across the park and runs diagonally toward the southwest corner where she meets Jill without stopping, and they continue running together, east along the south side of the park. The two girls run at the same rate in all these situations. How far east, in terms of x, was Jill from the northwest corner when Nancy finished her drink and began to cut across the park to meet her?

    .
    ("/" means "divided by" ; (x)(3) means "x times three")

    (A)  (square root of 3x) feet
    (B)  x feet
    (C)  2x feet
    (D)  (x)(square root of 3) /(2) feet
    (E)  0.5x feet
    .
    No takers?  No 13-year old math students at CI? 
    .--. .-.-.- ... .-.-.- ..-. --- .-. - .... . -.- .. -. --. -.. --- -- --..-- - .... . .--. --- .-- . .-. .- -. -.. -....- -....- .--- ..- ... - -.- .. -.. -.. .. -. --. .-.-.

    Offline cassini

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    Re: Copernicus's reasoning that the universe and the earth are global
    « Reply #44 on: April 30, 2018, 05:44:05 AM »
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  • As expected, completely lost on you.

    You turn comments about ontology into matters concerning materialist science that presupposes a particular view of reality - a view which, as I have already intimated, you share with the majority of your opponents, including those scientists whose name you cite.

    You’re arguing over the arrangement of apples in a presupposed basket, and I’m talking about what those apples really are, what it means for them to be arranged, the life of the tree they grow on, and whether there’s any basket at all.

    But this level of discourse is lost upon crypto-materialists and their world which consists of a basket, in which things exist as apples.

    This is a Catholic website Theosist, so not too many crypto-materialists are reading its posts in order to learn anything. Given however, it was this same materialism that convinced churchmen, including popes, to reject the literal words of Scripture, Catholic tradition, the opinion of all the Fathers, and a papal decree defining heliocentrism as formal heresy, an understanding of the arrangement of the 'apples' in God's 'basket' is essential to defend the matter of Faith that geocentrism is. This I, and others do, falsify the 'proofs' for the heretical order of the 'apples' so that the Catholic teaching can be seen as never in error, and if we are idiots for doing this, then I an delighted to be one of God's 'idiots.'