Author Topic: Catholic Flatearth Believers  (Read 1181 times)

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Offline Tradman

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Re: Catholic Flatearth Believers
« Reply #60 on: December 03, 2019, 12:39:21 PM »
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  •  From Wikipedia:

    Christendom did not believe the earth was flat up to the 1500s.  By 700 St. Bede explicitly taught a spherical earth and there is no record of any other view among Catholics after that point.  Catholics of the middle ages believed in a stationary globe earth.

    It is true that Copernicus linked his theory to the Pythagoreans, but this does not really have anything to do with the shape of the earth. Everyone at the time of Copernicus agreed that the earth is a sphere. This was already a thousand years past the last Catholic proponent of flat earth.  Copernicus disagreed on the movement of the earth.

    If you want to reject the position of Copernicus as pagan and go back to the Catholic position which preceded Galileo's condemnation, then you should accept the Ptolemaic system, i.e. geocentric, stationary globe earth.  There are other people on this forum who think this and, while I do not personally do so, I consider it a reasonable position.
    There's far too much information available for me to believe earth is a globe, either by the Fathers, or by science.  Water doesn't cling to the outside of a spinning ball.  And the Fathers were clear about the firmament covering the earth like a dome and bound to the edges.  Balls don't have edges and domes don't fit on balls.  I also don't believe man went to the moon, a deception concocted to maintain the spinning ball model held by modern science too willing to lie about everything else.     

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Catholic Flatearth Believers
    « Reply #61 on: December 03, 2019, 12:56:01 PM »
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  • There's far too much information available for me to believe earth is a globe, either by the Fathers, or by science.  Water doesn't cling to the outside of a spinning ball.  And the Fathers were clear about the firmament covering the earth like a dome and bound to the edges.  Balls don't have edges and domes don't fit on balls.  I also don't believe man went to the moon, a deception concocted to maintain the spinning ball model held by modern science too willing to lie about everything else.    
    Could you show me some of the clear teachings from the Fathers about the firmament being a dome bound to the edges?  I have never seen any.

    I have no interest in the science aspects of the issue.  I just object to false claims about Church teaching and history.  The Church has never taught flat earth and through most of her history Catholics have believed the earth is a globe.  


    Offline Tradman

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    Re: Catholic Flatearth Believers
    « Reply #62 on: December 03, 2019, 01:00:14 PM »
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  • Could you show me some of the clear teachings from the Fathers about the firmament being a dome bound to the edges?  I have never seen any.

    I have no interest in the science aspects of the issue.  I just object to false claims about Church teaching and history.  The Church has never taught flat earth and through most of her history Catholics have believed the earth is a globe.  
    Thanks Jayne K, it's been interesting.  Have a Merry Christmas! Hope you get all the good things you wish for.  

    Offline Marys Anawim

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    Re: Catholic Flatearth Believers
    « Reply #63 on: December 03, 2019, 02:25:55 PM »
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  • We are flat earthers and would like to see the topic more openly discussed among catholics...it is sad to see that protestants...who have so many errors and heretical teachings...discuss and give proof of the flat earth...although not an article for salvation within catholic teaching...I believe it is an important topic...the earths surface is flat but the whole of the earth is more like a sphere in the fact that there is the great deep and hell and purgatory then our domain then the skies above and the firmament and then the waters above the firmament. 
    So many things became clearer to me with the understanding of the flat earth and it strengthened my faith...not in Jesus as savior but in God and his creation...I always doubted the heliocentric theory but just accepted it because they had pics and that is what I was taught...but it never sat right within me...now I know why and it has helped me in many ways.

    Offline Meg

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    Re: Catholic Flatearth Believers
    « Reply #64 on: December 03, 2019, 02:52:54 PM »
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  • We are flat earthers and would like to see the topic more openly discussed among catholics...it is sad to see that protestants...who have so many errors and heretical teachings...discuss and give proof of the flat earth...although not an article for salvation within catholic teaching...I believe it is an important topic...the earths surface is flat but the whole of the earth is more like a sphere in the fact that there is the great deep and hell and purgatory then our domain then the skies above and the firmament and then the waters above the firmament.
    So many things became clearer to me with the understanding of the flat earth and it strengthened my faith...not in Jesus as savior but in God and his creation...I always doubted the heliocentric theory but just accepted it because they had pics and that is what I was taught...but it never sat right within me...now I know why and it has helped me in many ways.

    It's nice to have your input, Marys.

    It would indeed be good to see FE discussed more openly. And you're right - it's the Prots who are to ones who are really discussing it, because they actually believe Scripture. Traditional Catholics - not so much - when it comes to the shape of the earth.  

    I agree that the whole of the earth is like a sphere, if we include the firmament, the waters above the firmament, and the great deep with hell and purgatory below. It just makes sense.
    And yes, so may things become clearer with the understanding of the flat earth; that is, if we have faith in God and His creation.

    I know what you mean about the heliocentric theory - I remember when I was a child in grade school - the globe earth didn't make sense to me then, but I accepted it, like most everyone else.

    The flat earth makes a lot more sense than a globe earth.

    Keep in mind, if you decide to debate the topic further, that certain forum members will do everything that they can to stop you (and us) from debating it. The way I'm dealing with them is to just ignore them, for the most part.
    "This forum is a space for discussion to defend the Catholic Faith following Monsignor Marcel Lefebvre. It is therefore not for rallying to the conciliar church nor for sedevacantism"
    - From the French Resistance forum (Francophone forum, in France)


    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Catholic Flatearth Believers
    « Reply #65 on: December 03, 2019, 03:02:40 PM »
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  • We are flat earthers and would like to see the topic more openly discussed among catholics...it is sad to see that protestants...who have so many errors and heretical teachings...discuss and give proof of the flat earth...although not an article for salvation within catholic teaching...I believe it is an important topic...
    Here are the words of St. Basil of Caesarea (a Father of the Church) in the Hexameron:  

    Those who have written about the nature of the universe have discussed at length the shape of the earth. If it be spherical or cylindrical, if it resemble a disc and is equally rounded in all parts, or if it has the forth of a winnowing basket and is hollow in the middle; [1693] all these conjectures have been suggested by cosmographers, each one upsetting that of his predecessor. It will not lead me to give less importance to the creation of the universe, that the servant of God, Moses, is silent as to shapes; he has not said that the earth is a hundred and eighty thousand furlongs in circumference; he has not measured into what extent of air its shadow projects itself whilst the sun revolves around it, nor stated how this shadow, casting itself upon the moon, produces eclipses. He has passed over in silence, as useless, all that is unimportant for us. Shall I then prefer foolish wisdom to the oracles of the Holy Spirit? Shall I not rather exalt Him who, not wishing to fill our minds with these vanities, has regulated all the economy of Scripture in view of the edification and the making perfect of our souls? It is this which those seem to me not to have understood, who, giving themselves up to the distorted meaning of allegory, have undertaken to give a majesty of their own invention to Scripture. It is to believe themselves wiser than the Holy Spirit, and to bring forth their own ideas under a pretext of exegesis. Let us hear Scripture as it has been written.

    Note that St. Basil, like St. Augustine, taught that Scripture was silent on the shape of the earth.  And the reason for this silence is that the matter is unimportant.
    The idea that Scripture teaches a flat earth is yet another Protestant error in interpretation.  St. Basil says that it is distorting the meaning of Scripture and refers to it as foolish and as vanity.  If you are interested in the salvation of souls, focus on real Catholic teachings.  

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Catholic Flatearth Believers
    « Reply #66 on: December 03, 2019, 03:08:04 PM »
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  • Keep in mind, if you decide to debate the topic further, that certain forum members will do everything that they can to stop you (and us) from debating it. The way I'm dealing with them is to just ignore them, for the most part.

    Producing one piece of evidence after another that shows how you are wrong, as I do, is exactly what a person should do when engaged in debate.  You ignore me, not because I am stopping you from debating, but because you are incapable of answering.

    Offline Tradman

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    Re: Catholic Flatearth Believers
    « Reply #67 on: December 03, 2019, 04:45:01 PM »
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  • We are flat earthers and would like to see the topic more openly discussed among catholics...it is sad to see that protestants...who have so many errors and heretical teachings...discuss and give proof of the flat earth...although not an article for salvation within catholic teaching...I believe it is an important topic...the earths surface is flat but the whole of the earth is more like a sphere in the fact that there is the great deep and hell and purgatory then our domain then the skies above and the firmament and then the waters above the firmament.
    So many things became clearer to me with the understanding of the flat earth and it strengthened my faith...not in Jesus as savior but in God and his creation...I always doubted the heliocentric theory but just accepted it because they had pics and that is what I was taught...but it never sat right within me...now I know why and it has helped me in many ways.
    Yes, we've only seen the tip of the iceberg revealed about creation.  How much more is buried in documents for opening the mind of men?  God is so near, right above us, dwelling on earth and ruling from above. Rev 5:3 comes to mind as one of the more obvious expressions of the three areas of creation:   
    "And no man was able, neither in heaven, nor on earth, nor under the earth, to open the book, nor to look on it."  

    No one in heaven, or hell or on earth. Only Christ, the Master of the 'house'. Beautiful.


    Offline Tradman

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    Re: Catholic Flatearth Believers
    « Reply #68 on: December 03, 2019, 04:51:50 PM »
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  • It's nice to have your input, Marys.

    It would indeed be good to see FE discussed more openly. And you're right - it's the Prots who are to ones who are really discussing it, because they actually believe Scripture. Traditional Catholics - not so much - when it comes to the shape of the earth.  

    I agree that the whole of the earth is like a sphere, if we include the firmament, the waters above the firmament, and the great deep with hell and purgatory below. It just makes sense.
    And yes, so may things become clearer with the understanding of the flat earth; that is, if we have faith in God and His creation.

    I know what you mean about the heliocentric theory - I remember when I was a child in grade school - the globe earth didn't make sense to me then, but I accepted it, like most everyone else.

    The flat earth makes a lot more sense than a globe earth.

    Keep in mind, if you decide to debate the topic further, that certain forum members will do everything that they can to stop you (and us) from debating it. The way I'm dealing with them is to just ignore them, for the most part.
    That's really sad, that someone could be so intimidated, especially when they have no other input other than condemnation.    

    Offline Mass12

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    Re: Catholic Flatearth Believers
    « Reply #69 on: Yesterday at 09:15:05 AM »
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  • Could you show me some of the clear teachings from the Fathers about the firmament being a dome bound to the edges?  I have never seen any.

    I have no interest in the science aspects of the issue.  I just object to false claims about Church teaching and history.  The Church has never taught flat earth and through most of her history Catholics have believed the earth is a globe.  
    Why do you have no interest in the science of the issue?

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Catholic Flatearth Believers
    « Reply #70 on: Yesterday at 11:07:48 AM »
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  • Why do you have no interest in the science of the issue?
    Ever since I can remember I have been more interested in humanities than in sciences.  I just am inherently more interested in languages, history and theology than I am in cosmology.  

    Also the theological aspects are more important.  When people falsely claim, for example, that it is heretical to believe the earth is a sphere, they are holding an error which pertains to salvation.  Virtually anything concerning salvation is objectively more important than that which does not, such as the shape of the earth.

    The "truths" of science are by their nature subject to change.  It is always possible for new evidence or new theories to arise which change the consensus of science.  Only truth which is taught by the Catholic Church is permanent and can be relied on.  It is theoretically possible for the consensus of science that the earth is a sphere to be wrong.  It is not possible for the Catholic teaching that Scripture does not teach about the shape of the earth to be wrong.  This is a teaching first proposed by Church Fathers that was universally accepted for over a thousand years and then incorporated into magisterial teaching in encyclicals.  Such teaching should be accepted as having the infallibility of the ordinary magisterium.

    It is reasonable enough to question currently accepted science.  It is not reasonable to say that Scripture teaches a flat earth in contradiction to Church teaching that Scripture is silent on the subject.  Nor is it reasonable to say that flat earth was the near unanimous belief of the Fathers when there is only evidence of four Fathers who thought this and St. John Damascene's summary of patristic teaching explicitly says that some Fathers believed in a spherical earth.


    Offline cassini

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