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Author Topic: Catholic Flatearth Believers  (Read 4077 times)

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Offline Tradman

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Re: Catholic Flatearth Believers
« Reply #45 on: November 30, 2019, 11:58:38 AM »
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  • Catholics who interpret Scripture according to Providentissimus Deus are acknowledging the authority of the Church to interpret Scripture (as defined at Trent).  Such Catholics are not placing scientists above God.  They are just thinking like Catholics instead of Protestants.

    The Fathers, Saints and Doctors of the Church who believed the earth is a globe also believed that Scripture is inerrant.  That is, after all, what Catholics ought to believe.
    Which Fathers, Saints and Doctors of the Church taught earth is a globe?  And then related that to inerrant Scripture?  


    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Catholic Flatearth Believers
    « Reply #46 on: November 30, 2019, 12:14:51 PM »
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  • Which Fathers, Saints and Doctors of the Church taught earth is a globe?  And then related that to inerrant Scripture?  

    Nobody would be declared a Father, Saint, or Doctor of the Church unless he believed that Scripture was inerrant.  I have already given examples in this thread of those who believed the earth is a globe and I see no point in giving more.  There are too many to give a complete list.


    Offline Tradman

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    Re: Catholic Flatearth Believers
    « Reply #47 on: November 30, 2019, 02:02:39 PM »
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  • Nobody would be declared a Father, Saint, or Doctor of the Church unless he believed that Scripture was inerrant.  I have already given examples in this thread of those who believed the earth is a globe and I see no point in giving more.  There are too many to give a complete list.
    I haven't seen any.  Can you provide them for me?

    Offline Meg

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    Re: Catholic Flatearth Believers
    « Reply #48 on: November 30, 2019, 02:11:26 PM »
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  • Which Fathers, Saints and Doctors of the Church taught earth is a globe?  And then related that to inerrant Scripture?  

    It would be interesting to see which Fathers taught a globe earth by relating it to inerrant Scripture. I think that most of them related it to what they believed to be inerrant science. Or science that made more sense to them than inerrant Scripture. They may have been sincere, but they did not see where the belief in a globe earth would lead - which would be to the detriment of mankind and the Church.
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Tradman

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    Re: Catholic Flatearth Believers
    « Reply #49 on: November 30, 2019, 04:24:06 PM »
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  • It would be interesting to see which Fathers taught a globe earth by relating it to inerrant Scripture. I think that most of them related it to what they believed to be inerrant science. Or science that made more sense to them than inerrant Scripture. They may have been sincere, but they did not see where the belief in a globe earth would lead - which would be to the detriment of mankind and the Church.
    Yes, it would.


    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Catholic Flatearth Believers
    « Reply #50 on: December 01, 2019, 06:06:37 PM »
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  • I haven't seen any.  Can you provide them for me?
    Since you have not been able to see the ones that I already provided, then it would be a waste of time for me to continue to do so.

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Catholic Flatearth Believers
    « Reply #51 on: December 01, 2019, 06:47:32 PM »
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  • It would be interesting to see which Fathers taught a globe earth by relating it to inerrant Scripture. I think that most of them related it to what they believed to be inerrant science. Or science that made more sense to them than inerrant Scripture. They may have been sincere, but they did not see where the belief in a globe earth would lead - which would be to the detriment of mankind and the Church.

    The few Fathers who taught about flat earth from Scripture did so before St. Augustine taught that Scripture did not speak on this issue.  His teaching was soon adopted by the Church so there are no known Catholics (other than the poorly educated Cosmas) who looked in Scripture for information on the shape of the earth.  Anyone who accepted Catholic interpretation of Scripture would have looked for the answer from science.  Of course, Catholics of the past would not have thought science was inerrant; that is a modern error.  The millions of Catholics who have read Scripture in accordance Catholic teaching since St. Augustine have believed Scripture to be inerrant while also accepting the earth is a globe.  

    Other than those few Fathers and Cosmas, the people who first claimed that Scripture taught flat earth were sola scriptura heretics.  They did not have Church teaching to guide them in interpreting Scripture, so they made errors.  Unfortunately, the current crisis in the Church has allowed some Catholics to follow them into error without correction from our leaders.  The flat earth trad site, for example, openly acknowledges that it uses the heretical and blasphemous Eric Dubay as its source. 

    It is absurd to claim that belief in a globe earth ledsto the detriment of mankind and the Church.  It is this sort of ridiculous, baseless assertion that has led so many people to speak disparagingly of your intelligence.

    Offline Tradman

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    Re: Catholic Flatearth Believers
    « Reply #52 on: December 02, 2019, 11:16:38 AM »
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  • The few Fathers who taught about flat earth from Scripture did so before St. Augustine taught that Scripture did not speak on this issue.  His teaching was soon adopted by the Church so there are no known Catholics (other than the poorly educated Cosmas) who looked in Scripture for information on the shape of the earth.  Anyone who accepted Catholic interpretation of Scripture would have looked for the answer from science.  Of course, Catholics of the past would not have thought science was inerrant; that is a modern error.  The millions of Catholics who have read Scripture in accordance Catholic teaching since St. Augustine have believed Scripture to be inerrant while also accepting the earth is a globe.  

    Other than those few Fathers and Cosmas, the people who first claimed that Scripture taught flat earth were sola scriptura heretics.  They did not have Church teaching to guide them in interpreting Scripture, so they made errors.  Unfortunately, the current crisis in the Church has allowed some Catholics to follow them into error without correction from our leaders.  The flat earth trad site, for example, openly acknowledges that it uses the heretical and blasphemous Eric Dubay as its source.

    It is absurd to claim that belief in a globe earth ledsto the detriment of mankind and the Church.  It is this sort of ridiculous, baseless assertion that has led so many people to speak disparagingly of your intelligence.
    No Father of the Church taught heresy and remains a Father of the Church. Saying a "few Fathers of the Church and Cosmas" were heretics makes you suspect of heresy yourself.  The earliest Fathers teachings embody what's Catholic.  The Church didn't just suddenly spring up after the first Fathers' errors and subsequent Fathers corrected them; that's not even Catholic. Refusing to provide any quotes that the Fathers eventually taught globe earth using Scripture, along with saying the Fathers erred, you've destroyed your own argument.  


    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Catholic Flatearth Believers
    « Reply #53 on: December 02, 2019, 01:59:55 PM »
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  • No Father of the Church taught heresy and remains a Father of the Church. Saying a "few Fathers of the Church and Cosmas" were heretics makes you suspect of heresy yourself.  The earliest Fathers teachings embody what's Catholic.  The Church didn't just suddenly spring up after the first Fathers' errors and subsequent Fathers corrected them; that's not even Catholic. Refusing to provide any quotes that the Fathers eventually taught globe earth using Scripture, along with saying the Fathers erred, you've destroyed your own argument.  
    I did not say that a few Fathers of the Church and Cosmas were heretics.  I said that other than a few Fathers of the Church and Cosmas, historical  proponents of flat earth (like this group that was formed in the 19th century) were heretics.    This is the opposite of claiming that the few Fathers who believed in flat earth were heretics.  

    Whatever the Fathers all agree is part of the Faith embodies what is Catholic. Individual opinions of Fathers may be incorrect.  For example, in the first centuries there was some disagreement among the Fathers about whether certain writings should be considered part of the canon of Scripture. Some of the Fathers left out books that should have been included.  Some included books that should have been left out.  Eventually there was a consensus and all later Fathers were correct.

    I misunderstood your question as being one that I had already answered, so I did not want to do so again.  I apologize.   A Father (as well as Doctor of the Church) who taught the earth is a sphere and related it to Scripture is St. Bede.  In De Temporum Rationem he wrote explaining length of daylight from  "the roundness of the Earth, for not without reason is it called 'the orb of the world' on the pages of Holy Scripture and of ordinary literature. It is, in fact, set like a sphere in the middle of the whole universe.".   This was written around 700 A.D.

    Offline Tradman

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    Re: Catholic Flatearth Believers
    « Reply #54 on: December 02, 2019, 06:55:43 PM »
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  • I did not say that a few Fathers of the Church and Cosmas were heretics.  I said that other than a few Fathers of the Church and Cosmas, historical  proponents of flat earth (like this group that was formed in the 19th century) were heretics.    This is the opposite of claiming that the few Fathers who believed in flat earth were heretics.  

    Whatever the Fathers all agree is part of the Faith embodies what is Catholic. Individual opinions of Fathers may be incorrect.  For example, in the first centuries there was some disagreement among the Fathers about whether certain writings should be considered part of the canon of Scripture. Some of the Fathers left out books that should have been included.  Some included books that should have been left out.  Eventually there was a consensus and all later Fathers were correct.

    I misunderstood your question as being one that I had already answered, so I did not want to do so again.  I apologize.   A Father (as well as Doctor of the Church) who taught the earth is a sphere and related it to Scripture is St. Bede.  In De Temporum Rationem he wrote explaining length of daylight from  "the roundness of the Earth, for not without reason is it called 'the orb of the world' on the pages of Holy Scripture and of ordinary literature. It is, in fact, set like a sphere in the middle of the whole universe.".   This was written around 700 A.D.
    Apologies to you. You're right, your words didn't say the Fathers were heretics. Bede seems in this quote to be a bit of an anomaly, but the entire article is not present to view for context and its doubtful he would be the lone saint to deny what all the others taught, especially when the moving globe always has been the teaching of pagans.  By the way, apology accepted.      

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Catholic Flatearth Believers
    « Reply #55 on: December 02, 2019, 07:52:54 PM »
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  • Apologies to you. You're right, your words didn't say the Fathers were heretics. Bede seems in this quote to be a bit of an anomaly, but the entire article is not present to view for context and its doubtful he would be the lone saint to deny what all the others taught, especially when the moving globe always has been the teaching of pagans.  By the way, apology accepted.      
    There is no reason to think that all the other saints taught something different from St. Bede. (I can not find an English translation of his case for spherical earth online, but I can point you to the Latin.  There is no question that he is unambiguously teaching a spherical earth.) Nobody can produce more than a few quotes from Saints who said the earth was flat.

    St. John Damascene is considered the last Father of the Church.  He wrote of summary of Christian doctrine as presented by the Fathers who came before him.  He wrote: "Further, some hold that the earth is in the form of a sphere, others that it is in that of a cone. At all events it is much smaller than the heaven, and suspended almost like a point in its midst. And it will pass away and be changed." This has got to be the most authoritative statement possible on what the Fathers thought.  And this source says that some of the Fathers believed the earth is in the form of a sphere.  Therefore we can safely say that all of the Fathers did not teach that the earth is flat.

    Many cosmological models have been taught by pagans.  A stationary flat earth model was taught by pagans, as was a moving globe and as was a stationary globe.  We can't just rule out a model simply because pagans have taught it.  There wouldn't be any left.

    Far more important than what pagans taught is looking at what has been believed by Catholics throughout history.  In the first centuries, as St. John Damascene said, Catholics disagreed.  Early in the 5th century St. Augustine taught that Scripture did not teach the shape of the earth and this seems to have been accepted by everyone except Cosmas (who may not have known).  Starting from St. Bede around 700, we see Catholics treating the question as a matter of science and teaching a stationary globe in a geocentric system.  This belief lasted for about a thousand years and is what was taught at Catholic universities.  If any model is to be identified as the traditional Catholic one, it should be this one.  

    Thanks for accepting my apology.  I accept yours.


    Offline Tradman

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    Re: Catholic Flatearth Believers
    « Reply #56 on: December 02, 2019, 09:58:31 PM »
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  • There is no reason to think that all the other saints taught something different from St. Bede. (I can not find an English translation of his case for spherical earth online, but I can point you to the Latin.  There is no question that he is unambiguously teaching a spherical earth.) Nobody can produce more than a few quotes from Saints who said the earth was flat.

    St. John Damascene is considered the last Father of the Church.  He wrote of summary of Christian doctrine as presented by the Fathers who came before him.  He wrote: "Further, some hold that the earth is in the form of a sphere, others that it is in that of a cone. At all events it is much smaller than the heaven, and suspended almost like a point in its midst. And it will pass away and be changed." This has got to be the most authoritative statement possible on what the Fathers thought.  And this source says that some of the Fathers believed the earth is in the form of a sphere.  Therefore we can safely say that all of the Fathers did not teach that the earth is flat.

    Many cosmological models have been taught by pagans.  A stationary flat earth model was taught by pagans, as was a moving globe and as was a stationary globe.  We can't just rule out a model simply because pagans have taught it.  There wouldn't be any left.

    Far more important than what pagans taught is looking at what has been believed by Catholics throughout history.  In the first centuries, as St. John Damascene said, Catholics disagreed.  Early in the 5th century St. Augustine taught that Scripture did not teach the shape of the earth and this seems to have been accepted by everyone except Cosmas (who may not have known).  Starting from St. Bede around 700, we see Catholics treating the question as a matter of science and teaching a stationary globe in a geocentric system.  This belief lasted for about a thousand years and is what was taught at Catholic universities.  If any model is to be identified as the traditional Catholic one, it should be this one.  

    Thanks for accepting my apology.  I accept yours.
    What pagans taught is almost as important as what the Fathers taught, because Catholics and pagans were at odds about creation throughout the centuries with the pagans consistently teaching earth was a moving globe. Still do.  

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Catholic Flatearth Believers
    « Reply #57 on: December 02, 2019, 10:25:11 PM »
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  • What pagans taught is almost as important as what the Fathers taught, because Catholics and pagans were at odds about creation throughout the centuries with the pagans consistently teaching earth was a moving globe. Still do.  
    Where did you get this idea?  It is not true at all.  Pagans at different times and places had different ideas.  In the centuries just before and after the time of Christ, the Romans believed in a stationary globe in a geocentric system, just like Catholics did for most of our history.  

    While there have been some pagans who believed in a moving globe, that is one of the least common ways to think of it.  The most common view among pagans is flat earth.  Here is what Wikipedia says: 

    The flat Earth model is an archaic conception of Earth's shape as a plane or disk. Many ancient cultures subscribed to a flat Earth cosmography, including Greece until the classical period, the Bronze Age and Iron Age civilizations of the Near East until the Hellenistic period, India until the Gupta period (early centuries AD), and China until the 17th century. 

    If we need to reject ideas just because pagans held them, then flat earth would be the last thing we should accept.  All the pagans mentioned in the Old Testament believed in flat earth.

    Offline Tradman

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    Re: Catholic Flatearth Believers
    « Reply #58 on: December 03, 2019, 09:43:02 AM »
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  • It is true that most civilizations believed earth was flat prior to 1500's but it was the pagans who promoted and elaborated on the moving globe and the subsequent Copernican Revolution (that the Church condemned) that ultimately changed the minds of most.    

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Catholic Flatearth Believers
    « Reply #59 on: December 03, 2019, 12:03:49 PM »
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  • It is true that most civilizations believed earth was flat prior to 1500's but it was the pagans who promoted and elaborated on the moving globe and the subsequent Copernican Revolution (that the Church condemned) that ultimately changed the minds of most.
      From Wikipedia:

    Quote
    While the sphericity of the Earth was widely recognized in Greco-Roman astronomy from at least the 4th century BC,[3] the Earth's daily rotation and yearly orbit around the Sun was never universally accepted until the Copernican Revolution.
    While a moving Earth was proposed at least from the 4th century BC in Pythagoreanism, and a fully developed heliocentric model was developed by Aristarchus of Samos in the 3rd century BC, these ideas were not successful in replacing the view of a static spherical Earth, and from the 2nd century AD the predominant model, which would be inherited by medieval astronomy, was the geocentric model described in Ptolemy's Almagest.

    Christendom did not believe the earth was flat up to the 1500s.  By 700 St. Bede explicitly taught a spherical earth and there is no record of any other view among Catholics after that point.  Catholics of the middle ages believed in a stationary globe earth.

    It is true that Copernicus linked his theory to the Pythagoreans, but this does not really have anything to do with the shape of the earth. Everyone at the time of Copernicus agreed that the earth is a sphere. This was already a thousand years past the last Catholic proponent of flat earth.  Copernicus disagreed on the movement of the earth.

    If you want to reject the position of Copernicus as pagan and go back to the Catholic position which preceded Galileo's condemnation, then you should accept the Ptolemaic system, i.e. geocentric, stationary globe earth.  There are other people on this forum who think this and, while I do not personally do so, I consider it a reasonable position.