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Author Topic: Catholic Flatearth Believers  (Read 4051 times)

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Offline Jaynek

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Re: Catholic Flatearth Believers
« Reply #30 on: November 29, 2019, 03:44:18 PM »
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  • Except it says "and an explicit rejection of Platonic and Pythagorean physical doctrines. "  

    Yes, St. Albert rejected some of their ideas.  For example, unlike Pytharoras, St. Albert  was a geocentrist and did not accept the theory that stars produce sound.  This in no way implies that he thought the earth was flat.  Since I just showed you the exact location in his works in which gives the arguments which prove the earth is a sphere, it is obvious that St. Albert did not think that the earth was flat.


    Offline Tradman

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    Re: Catholic Flatearth Believers
    « Reply #31 on: November 29, 2019, 03:58:37 PM »
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  • This historian is notorious for his anti-Catholic agenda and even the Wikipedia (no friend to Catholicism) article on this book indicates how inaccurate it was. For example:

    Historian of science Lawrence Principe writes, "No serious historians of science or of the science-religion issue today maintain the warfare thesis...The origins of the warfare thesis lie in the late 19th century, specifically in the work of two men - John William Draper and Andrew Dickson White. These men had specific political purposes in mind when arguing their case, and the historical foundations of their work are unreliable." [2]
    Principe goes on to write "Despite appearances, White’s arguments are scarcely any better than Draper’s. White uses fallacious arguments and suspect or bogus sources. His methodological errors are collectivism (the unwarrantable extension of an individual’s views to represent that of some larger group of which he is a part), a lack of critical judgement about sources, argument by ridicule and assertion, failure to check primary sources, and quoting selectively and out of context. White popularized the baseless notions that before Columbus and Magellan, the world was thought to be flat and that the Earth’s sphericity was officially opposed by the Church.

    more at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_History_of_the_Warfare_of_Science_with_Theology_in_Christendom

    Treating this book like legitimate history is, in effect, aiding the enemies of the Church to attack her.
    I agree this historian is anti-Catholic, yet he makes clear he is believes in the globe. At the same time, he docuмents what Catholics teach (flat earth) in order (he thinks) to make Catholics look stupid and against science.  ADW hates Catholic teaching about flat earth. I also agree there is no warfare between Catholicism and science.  But then, that leaves us with Catholic Fathers and Scripture who taught a flat earth, against the theory of the globe.  


    Offline Tradman

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    Re: Catholic Flatearth Believers
    « Reply #32 on: November 29, 2019, 03:59:45 PM »
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  • Yes, St. Albert rejected some of their ideas.  For example, unlike Pytharoras, St. Albert  was a geocentrist and did not accept the theory that stars produce sound.  This in no way implies that he thought the earth was flat.  Since I just showed you the exact location in his works in which gives the arguments which prove the earth is a sphere, it is obvious that St. Albert did not think that the earth was flat.
    Some say Albert was flat earth, others say he was not.  It would be nice to get into the docuмents themselves, right?

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Catholic Flatearth Believers
    « Reply #33 on: November 29, 2019, 04:11:32 PM »
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  • I agree this historian is anti-Catholic, yet he makes clear he is believes in the globe. At the same time, he docuмents what Catholics teach (flat earth) in order (he thinks) to make Catholics look stupid and against science.  ADW hates Catholic teaching about flat earth. I also agree there is no warfare between Catholicism and science.  But then, that leaves us with Catholic Fathers and Scripture who taught a flat earth, against the theory of the globe.  
    It leaves us with a historian who lied in order to promote his agenda.  The original sources do not back up the claims of the historian.
    Here is Jeffrey Burton Russell on the topic:

    In my research, I looked to see how old the idea was that medieval Christians believed the earth was flat. I obviously did not find it among medieval Christians. Nor among anti-Catholic Protestant reformers. Nor in Copernicus or Galileo or their followers, who had to demonstrate the superiority of a heliocentric system, but not of a spherical earth. I was sure I would find it among the eighteenth-century philosophes, among all their vitriolic sneers at Christianity, but not a word. I am still amazed at where it first appears.

    No one before the 1830s believed that medieval people thought that the earth was flat.

    The idea was established, almost contemporaneously, by a Frenchman and an American, between whom I have not been able to establish a connection, though they were both in Paris at the same time. One was Antoine-Jean Letronne (1787-1848), an academic of strong antireligious prejudices who had studied both geography and patristics and who cleverly drew upon both to misrepresent the church fathers and their medieval successors as believing in a flat earth, in his On the Cosmographical Ideas of the Church Fathers (1834). The American was no other than our beloved storyteller Washington Irving (1783-1859), who loved to write historical fiction under the guise of history. His misrepresentations of the history of early New York City and of the life of Washington were topped by his history of Christopher Columbus (1828). It was he who invented the indelible picture of the young Columbus, a "simple mariner," appearing before a dark crowd of benighted inquisitors and hooded theologians at a council of Salamanca, all of whom believed, according to Irving, that the earth was flat like a plate. Well, yes, there was a meeting at Salamanca in 1491, but Irving's version of it, to quote a distinguished modern historian of Columbus, was "pure moonshine. Washington Irving, scenting his opportunity for a picturesque and moving scene," created a fictitious account of this "nonexistent university council" and "let his imagination go completely...the whole story is misleading and mischievous nonsense."

    But now, why did the false accounts of Letronne and Irving become melded and then, as early as the 1860s, begin to be served up in schools and in schoolbooks as the solemn truth?
    The answer is that the falsehood about the spherical earth became a colorful and unforgettable part of a larger falsehood: the falsehood of the eternal war between science (good) and religion (bad) throughout Western history. This vast web of falsehood was invented and propagated by the influential historian John Draper (1811-1882) and many prestigious followers, such as Andrew Dickson White (1832-1918), the president of Cornell University, who made sure that the false account was perpetrated in texts, encyclopedias, and even allegedly serious scholarship, down to the present day. A lively current version of the lie can be found in Daniel Boorstin's The Discoverers, found in any bookshop or library.

    The reason for promoting both the specific lie about the sphericity of the earth and the general lie that religion and science are in natural and eternal conflict in Western society, is to defend Darwinism. The answer is really only slightly more complicated than that bald statement. The flat-earth lie was ammunition against the creationists. The argument was simple and powerful, if not elegant: "Look how stupid these Christians are. They are always getting in the way of science and progress. These people who deny evolution today are exactly the same sort of people as those idiots who for at least a thousand years denied that the earth was round. How stupid can you get?"

    But that is not the truth.
    http://www.veritas-ucsb.org/library/russell/FlatEarth.html

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Catholic Flatearth Believers
    « Reply #34 on: November 29, 2019, 04:16:46 PM »
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  • Some say Albert was flat earth, others say he was not.  It would be nice to get into the docuмents themselves, right?

    I have never seen anyone claim that St. Albert believed in a flat earth.  That was not the meaning of the quote you found.  I have given you the link to a work by St. Albert in which he discusses the shape of the earth.  If you don't want to take my word for it, you can type it into a translation program (or can find someone to translate it for you) and you can read for yourself St. Albert saying that the earth is a sphere.


    Offline Tradman

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    Re: Catholic Flatearth Believers
    « Reply #35 on: November 29, 2019, 04:53:20 PM »
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  • It leaves us with a historian who lied in order to promote his agenda.  The original sources do not back up the claims of the historian.
    Here is Jeffrey Burton Russell on the topic:

    In my research, I looked to see how old the idea was that medieval Christians believed the earth was flat. I obviously did not find it among medieval Christians. Nor among anti-Catholic Protestant reformers. Nor in Copernicus or Galileo or their followers, who had to demonstrate the superiority of a heliocentric system, but not of a spherical earth. I was sure I would find it among the eighteenth-century philosophes, among all their vitriolic sneers at Christianity, but not a word. I am still amazed at where it first appears.

    No one before the 1830s believed that medieval people thought that the earth was flat.

    The idea was established, almost contemporaneously, by a Frenchman and an American, between whom I have not been able to establish a connection, though they were both in Paris at the same time. One was Antoine-Jean Letronne (1787-1848), an academic of strong antireligious prejudices who had studied both geography and patristics and who cleverly drew upon both to misrepresent the church fathers and their medieval successors as believing in a flat earth, in his On the Cosmographical Ideas of the Church Fathers (1834). The American was no other than our beloved storyteller Washington Irving (1783-1859), who loved to write historical fiction under the guise of history. His misrepresentations of the history of early New York City and of the life of Washington were topped by his history of Christopher Columbus (1828). It was he who invented the indelible picture of the young Columbus, a "simple mariner," appearing before a dark crowd of benighted inquisitors and hooded theologians at a council of Salamanca, all of whom believed, according to Irving, that the earth was flat like a plate. Well, yes, there was a meeting at Salamanca in 1491, but Irving's version of it, to quote a distinguished modern historian of Columbus, was "pure moonshine. Washington Irving, scenting his opportunity for a picturesque and moving scene," created a fictitious account of this "nonexistent university council" and "let his imagination go completely...the whole story is misleading and mischievous nonsense."

    But now, why did the false accounts of Letronne and Irving become melded and then, as early as the 1860s, begin to be served up in schools and in schoolbooks as the solemn truth?
    The answer is that the falsehood about the spherical earth became a colorful and unforgettable part of a larger falsehood: the falsehood of the eternal war between science (good) and religion (bad) throughout Western history. This vast web of falsehood was invented and propagated by the influential historian John Draper (1811-1882) and many prestigious followers, such as Andrew Dickson White (1832-1918), the president of Cornell University, who made sure that the false account was perpetrated in texts, encyclopedias, and even allegedly serious scholarship, down to the present day. A lively current version of the lie can be found in Daniel Boorstin's The Discoverers, found in any bookshop or library.

    The reason for promoting both the specific lie about the sphericity of the earth and the general lie that religion and science are in natural and eternal conflict in Western society, is to defend Darwinism. The answer is really only slightly more complicated than that bald statement. The flat-earth lie was ammunition against the creationists. The argument was simple and powerful, if not elegant: "Look how stupid these Christians are. They are always getting in the way of science and progress. These people who deny evolution today are exactly the same sort of people as those idiots who for at least a thousand years denied that the earth was round. How stupid can you get?"

    But that is not the truth.
    http://www.veritas-ucsb.org/library/russell/FlatEarth.html
    Bertrand Russel is definitely trying to prove earth is a globe.  No conflict of interest there. He was also anti-Catholic. Makes one have to question his motives. First he says: "In my research, I looked to see how old the idea was that medieval Christians believed the earth was flat. I obviously did not find it among medieval Christians. Nor among anti-Catholic Protestant reformers."  Medieval Christians and anti-Catholic Protestant reformers brought enough flat earth proponents that those who believed in the globe were at constant odds with them. Many books and battles later, the war continues. But it also says without saying it, that it was Catholics who believed flat earth because he did not include them specifically. So he knows Catholics certainly did believe earth is flat. Then he says: "No one before the 1830s believed that medieval people thought that the earth was flat."  Yet, many of the early Church Fathers and Catholic cosmologists taught the heliocentric globe was a pagan belief and fought it. So, Dickson White and Russel seem to be working the globe from different anti-Catholic angles. Both detail in their articles a hatred for Catholic Fathers and Catholic teaching.      

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Catholic Flatearth Believers
    « Reply #36 on: November 29, 2019, 05:45:55 PM »
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  • Bertrand Russel is definitely trying to prove earth is a globe.  No conflict of interest there. He was also anti-Catholic.  

    It would be fair to say that Bertrand Russell was anti-Catholic.  He was not, however, the author I quoted.  That was Jeffery Burton Russell who is a Catholic and professor of Medieval history.  Given Jeffrey's age (in his 80s), he was probably raised in traditional Catholicism, although I don't know how much he went along with the changes.

    It is highly unlikely that Jeffrey was trying to prove the earth is a globe since he wrote before the current resurgence of the flat earth movement. He would have assumed that his audience already believed in a globe earth.  Jeffery was trying to expose an anti-Catholic myth that is commonly accepted in Western society - that the Catholic Church taught the earth is flat and opposed science.  As as expert in history, he is familiar with the original sources and knows what was really believed by Catholics of the past.


    Then he says: "No one before the 1830s believed that medieval people thought that the earth was flat."  Yet, many of the early Church Fathers and Catholic cosmologists taught the heliocentric globe was a pagan belief and fought it. So, Dickson White and Russel seem to be working the globe from different anti-Catholic angles. Both detail in their articles a hatred for Catholic Fathers and Catholic teaching.      


    No, many of the early Church Fathers did not teach "the heliocentric globe was a pagan belief" and this was not a fight at the time.  The most common understanding of cosmology during the Patristic period was a geocentric globe model.  A few Church Fathers are on record as thinking the earth was flat.  (The flat earth trads site manages to come up with four. If we add Cosmos Indicopleustes, a man with no religious authority, that makes a total of 5 known proponents of flat earth. This is not many.)  But virtually nobody at that time was promoting a heliocentric model and so nobody was fighting against it.  Heliocentrism did not become an issue until around a thousand years later.  

    Jeffrey Burton Russell does not have a hatred for Catholic Fathers and Catholic teaching.  As a historian, he is known for being fair and even sympathetic to the Catholic Church.  You are just as incorrect about his views as you are about his name.

    Offline Meg

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    Re: Catholic Flatearth Believers
    « Reply #37 on: November 29, 2019, 07:13:50 PM »
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  • I agree this historian is anti-Catholic, yet he makes clear he is believes in the globe. At the same time, he docuмents what Catholics teach (flat earth) in order (he thinks) to make Catholics look stupid and against science.  ADW hates Catholic teaching about flat earth. I also agree there is no warfare between Catholicism and science.  But then, that leaves us with Catholic Fathers and Scripture who taught a flat earth, against the theory of the globe.  

    Regarding the Catholic Fathers and Scripture, which teach a flat earth against the theory of the globe (as you rightly mention above); it seems to me that the Fathers (and Scripture) were not so eager to separate God from His Creation, as the later and especially modern Catholic teachers do. And as the Atheists do as well.

    That seems like the bottom line, really.
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29


    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Catholic Flatearth Believers
    « Reply #38 on: November 29, 2019, 08:23:35 PM »
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  • Regarding the Catholic Fathers and Scripture, which teach a flat earth against the theory of the globe (as you rightly mention above); it seems to me that the Fathers (and Scripture) were not so eager to separate God from His Creation, as the later and especially modern Catholic teachers do. And as the Atheists do as well.
    Four out of dozens of Church Fathers expressed a belief in flat earth.  The Church has taught, since St. Augustine, that Scripture is silent on the shape of the earth.  You misrepresent the Fathers and Scripture.  

    Offline Tradman

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    Re: Catholic Flatearth Believers
    « Reply #39 on: November 30, 2019, 09:38:29 AM »
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  • Regarding the Catholic Fathers and Scripture, which teach a flat earth against the theory of the globe (as you rightly mention above); it seems to me that the Fathers (and Scripture) were not so eager to separate God from His Creation, as the later and especially modern Catholic teachers do. And as the Atheists do as well.

    That seems like the bottom line, really.
    It was definitely the goal, to keep true to the Word. Nothing the heliocentrics believe ever explains anything about the globe by Scripture or the Fathers. It seems those who believe in the globe are there just to put up stops.

    Offline Tradman

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    Re: Catholic Flatearth Believers
    « Reply #40 on: November 30, 2019, 09:42:28 AM »
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  • Four out of dozens of Church Fathers expressed a belief in flat earth.  The Church has taught, since St. Augustine, that Scripture is silent on the shape of the earth.  You misrepresent the Fathers and Scripture.  
    Even if there were only four Fathers who taught flat earth, (there are actually many more) there were none who taught earth is a globe. 
    Please show where the Church teaches Scripture is silent about the shape of the earth.  


    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Catholic Flatearth Believers
    « Reply #41 on: November 30, 2019, 09:53:29 AM »
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  • It was definitely the goal, to keep true to the Word. Nothing the heliocentrics believe ever explains anything about the globe by Scripture or the Fathers. It seems those who believe in the globe are there just to put up stops.
    Heliocentrism is not the opposite of flat earth.  The traditional Catholic position for most of Church history has been a geocentric, spherical earth model.  This is still believed by some Catholics today, including some posters on this forum.   

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Catholic Flatearth Believers
    « Reply #42 on: November 30, 2019, 11:00:22 AM »
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  • Even if there were only four Fathers who taught flat earth, (there are actually many more) there were none who taught earth is a globe.

    If there are more than four, why can't you (or the flat earth trads site) show any quotes from them?  There is no evidence from primary sources that more than a few Fathers thought the earth was flat. (There is also no evidence that any Catholics thought this after the Patristic period.) The only "evidence" you have produced is a clearly biased claim from an anti-Catholic "historian" who can't back it up properly.

    At least two Father taught the earth is a globe.  St. Bede wrote:  "We call the earth a globe, not as if the shape of a sphere were expressed in the diversity of plains and mountains, but because, if all things are included in the outline, the earth's circuмference will represent the figure of a perfect globe... For truly it is an orb placed in the centre of the universe; in its width it is like a circle, and not circular like a shield but rather like a ball, and it extends from its centre with perfect roundness on all sides."

    Note that St. Bede is using the geocentric globe earth model that predominated through Catholic history. 

    St. Gregory of Nyssa wrote:
    As, when the sun shines above the earth, the shadow is spread over its lower part, because its spherical shape makes it impossible for it to be clasped all round at one and the same time by the rays, and necessarily, on whatever side the sun's rays may fall on some particular point of the globe, if we follow a straight diameter, we shall find shadow upon the opposite point, and so, continuously, at the opposite end of the direct line of the rays shadow moves round that globe, keeping pace with the sun, so that equally in their turn both the upper half and the under half of the earth are in light and darkness;


    Please show where the Church teaches Scripture is silent about the shape of the earth.  
     St. Augustine wrote:  
    What concern is it of mine whether heaven is like a sphere and the earth is enclosed by it and suspended in the middle of the universe, or whether heaven like a disk above the earth covers it over on one side?... 
    Hence, I must say briefly that in the matter of the shape of heaven the sacred writers knew the truth, but that the Spirit of God, who spoke through them, did not wish to teach men these facts that would be of no avail for their salvation.

    He is obviously talking about the two main cosmological models under debate at his time.  One was spherical earth with a spherical heaven enclosing it in the middle of the universe.  The other was a flat earth with heaven like a vault over it.  St. Augustine identifies this as a matter the sacred writers (i.e. Scripture) left out because it does affect salvation.  This passage was later quoted in the encyclical Providentissimus Deus as a general principle:  

    "To understand how just is the rule here formulated we must remember, first, that the sacred writers, or to speak more accurately, the Holy Ghost "Who spoke by them, did not intend to teach men these things (that is to say, the essential nature of the things of the visible universe), things in no way profitable unto salvation."

    In other words, Scripture does not teach about the nature of the visible universe such as the shape of heaven and earth.

    Offline Meg

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    Re: Catholic Flatearth Believers
    « Reply #43 on: November 30, 2019, 11:32:39 AM »
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  • It was definitely the goal, to keep true to the Word. Nothing the heliocentrics believe ever explains anything about the globe by Scripture or the Fathers. It seems those who believe in the globe are there just to put up stops.

    Agreed. The Fathers who believed in a flat earth also believed that Scripture is inerrant. They did not take the testimony of scientists over that of Scripture, as is done today. Of course today it's all about how to interpret Scripture. The Fathers of the early Church did not consider the word of scientists to be above that of God. Nor did they believe that Scripture needed to be corrected.
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Catholic Flatearth Believers
    « Reply #44 on: November 30, 2019, 11:42:55 AM »
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  • Agreed. The Fathers who believed in a flat earth also believed that Scripture is inerrant. They did not take the testimony of scientists over that of Scripture, as is done today. Of course today it's all about how to interpret Scripture. The Fathers of the early Church did not consider the word of scientists to be above that of God. Nor did they believe that Scripture needed to be corrected.

    Catholics who interpret Scripture according to Providentissimus Deus are acknowledging the authority of the Church to interpret Scripture (as defined at Trent).  Such Catholics are not placing scientists above God.  They are just thinking like Catholics instead of Protestants.

    The Fathers, Saints and Doctors of the Church who believed the earth is a globe also believed that Scripture is inerrant.  That is, after all, what Catholics ought to believe.