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Author Topic: Catholic Flatearth Believers  (Read 4058 times)

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Offline Meg

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Re: Catholic Flatearth Believers
« Reply #15 on: November 27, 2019, 07:24:12 AM »
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  • Do you think that St. Bede and St. Thomas Aquinas taught that the earth is a sphere because they were brainwashed?  Their explanations make sense to me


    How did they come to this conclusion or explanation? How is it determined catholics reached this consensus?




    From what I understand, St. Thomas was influenced by his mentor St. Albert the Great, who was a scientist who believed in a globe earth. That doesn't mean that we have to agree with them, of course.  :)
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29


    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Catholic Flatearth Believers
    « Reply #16 on: November 27, 2019, 08:05:13 AM »
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  • From what I understand, St. Thomas was influenced by his mentor St. Albert the Great, who was a scientist who believed in a globe earth. That doesn't mean that we have to agree with them, of course.  :)
    It is true enough that St. Albert was yet another Doctor of the Church who, like St. Thomas and St. Bede, taught that the earth is a sphere.  And it is true that St. Thomas was a student of St. Albert and was probably influenced by him. There is, however, no reason to think that St. Thomas blindly accepted everything that he was told by his teachers.  He measured everything against Church doctrine.

    St. Thomas wrote a commentary on Aristotle's work on cosmology, Περὶ οὐρανοῦ. In this work, St. Thomas carefully went through line by line considering what was true and compatible with Christianity.  In the section concerning the shape of the earth, St. Thomas said that Aristotle taught the truth and made good arguments when he said the earth is a sphere.  

    Since this is a matter of science and not Faith, Catholics are not obliged to accept this.  But there are no grounds whatsoever to claim, as TomGubbinsKimmage just did, that flat earth is a Church teaching or that spherical earth was condemned by the Church.

    Even considering flat earth as a matter of science, we need to keep in mind St. Augustine's warning against causing scandal: 

    Usually, even a non-Christian knows something about the earth, the heavens, and the other elements of the world, about the motion and orbit of the stars and even their size and relative positions, about the predictable eclipses of the sun and moon, the cycles of the years and the seasons, about the kinds of animals, shrubs, stones, and so forth, and this knowledge he holds to as being certain from reason and experience. Now, it is a disgraceful and dangerous thing for an infidel to hear a Christian, presumably giving the meaning of Holy Scripture, talking nonsense on these topics; and we should take all means to prevent such an embarrassing situation, in which people show up vast ignorance in a Christian and laugh it to scorn. The shame is not so much that an ignorant individual is derided, but that people outside the household of faith think our sacred writers held such opinions, and, to the great loss of those for whose salvation we toil, the writers of our Scripture are criticized and rejected as unlearned men. If they find a Christian mistaken in a field which they themselves know well and hear him maintaining his foolish opinions about our books, how are they going to believe those books in matters concerning the resurrection of the dead, the hope of eternal life, and the kingdom of heaven, when they think their pages are full of falsehoods on facts which they themselves have learnt from experience and the light of reason? Reckless and incompetent expounders of Holy Scripture bring untold trouble and sorrow on their wiser brethren when they are caught in one of their mischievous false opinions and are taken to task by those who are not bound by the authority of our sacred books. For then, to defend their utterly foolish and obviously untrue statements, they will try to call upon Holy Scripture for proof and even recite from memory many passages which they think support their position, although they understand neither what they say nor the things about which they make assertion [quoting 1 Tim 1:7].


    Offline TomGubbinsKimmage

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    Re: Catholic Flatearth Believers
    « Reply #17 on: November 27, 2019, 09:20:26 AM »
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  • A few, but not all, Fathers of the Church taught that the earth was flat.  When there is no consensus among them, like in this case, one does not assume that it is a part of Church teaching.  One needs to look at later teaching. 

    Church teaching (going back to St. Augustine, a Father and Doctor of the Church) is that Scripture is silent on the shape of the earth, it is a matter for science, and that Christians may hold any belief that is in accord with reason.


    Smart readers will observe that Jayne is
    1. Not challenging the authencity of our quotes
    and
    2. Not even trying to explain their "context"

    They stand for themselves. Let the honest person judge.

    Not one Father taught that the earth was round. Not one. We have ambiguous quotes. But even if she can find one, he would be in the minority, because our quotes outnumber that.

    This is how theologians judge Catholic teaching. By what the Fathers taught. Not by what some woman on an internet forum says.

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Catholic Flatearth Believers
    « Reply #18 on: November 27, 2019, 12:35:50 PM »
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  • Smart readers will observe that Jayne is
    1. Not challenging the authencity of our quotes
    and
    2. Not even trying to explain their "context"

    I have written many posts regarding flat-earther "proof-verses".  No such quotes were cited in this thread so I did not address them.  If you have any specific quotes you wish to discuss, please go ahead.

    Not one Father taught that the earth was round. Not one. We have ambiguous quotes. But even if she can find one, he would be in the minority, because our quotes outnumber that.

    This is how theologians judge Catholic teaching. By what the Fathers taught. Not by what some woman on an internet forum says.

    There are a few quotes from Fathers who believed the earth is a sphere and they are clear enough to anyone open to the truth.  The more significant patrisitc teaching, however, is that Scripture is silent on the shape of the earth.  This teaching is the one that was adopted by Catholics through the centuries and eventually quoted within Magisterial teaching.  
    Theologians do not not judge Catholic teaching by counting up the numbers of Fathers on the different sides of a controversy.  Here is the relevant principle as stated by Pope Leo XIII (not some woman on the Internet) in the encyclical Providentissimus Deus:

    The unshrinking defence of the Holy Scripture, however, does not require that we should equally uphold all the opinions which each of the Fathers or the more recent interpreters have put forth in explaining it; for it may be that, in commenting on passages where physical matters occur, they have sometimes expressed the ideas of their own times, and thus made statements which in these days have been abandoned as incorrect. Hence, in their interpretations, we must carefully note what they lay down as belonging to faith, or as intimately connected with faith-what they are unanimous in. For "in those things which do not come under the obligation of faith, the Saints were at liberty to hold divergent opinions, just as we ourselves are,"(55) according to the saying of St. Thomas.

    The Fathers did not have a unanimous opinion on the shape of the earth, as the earlier quote from St. John Damascene (not some woman on the Internet) showed.  When the Fathers do not unanimously hold a position as belonging to the faith we too are at liberty to hold divergent opinions (unless there is a subsequent teaching otherwise).  You have no right to insist that Catholics must accept that the earth is flat.  The Church has never taught this.  

    Offline cassini

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    Re: Catholic Flatearth Believers
    « Reply #19 on: November 27, 2019, 01:23:45 PM »
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  • It was around 500 B.C. that Pythagoras first proposed a spherical Earth, mainly on aesthetic grounds rather than on any physical evidence. Like many Greeks, he believed the sphere was the most perfect shape.

    Rather it is said that Pythagoras first proposed a spherical Earth, for Pythagoras did not leave a single piece of paper confirming any of the proposals and heresies attributed to him.

    This information comes from the book Burned Alive by A.A. Martinez. His book is about the heresies and false philosophies of Bruno. In it Martinez shows us that in the first three centuries of the Catholic Church the Fathers and popes had an ongoing war with the Pythagorean heresies as they were called, heresies of an orbiting Earth, many worlds with intelligent life on them, that the moving Earth must have a soul, etc., etc. Bruno held many of these heresies but not once was there a mention of a spherical Earth being one of them. This proves the Church never held to a flat Earth in any way whatsoever.

    As for Tomgibbons's: 'There have always been those who thought it was a globe, but science now disproves that.
    No matter which way you want to wiggle, there is no way out of it.
    Honest people can discern this truth themselves.

    Well the science of geodesy does not confirm a flat Earth, it confirms a global Earth. The Coriolis Effect also confirms a globe.


    Offline Meg

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    Re: Catholic Flatearth Believers
    « Reply #20 on: November 27, 2019, 02:59:03 PM »
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  • Smart readers will observe that Jayne is
    1. Not challenging the authencity of our quotes
    and
    2. Not even trying to explain their "context"

    They stand for themselves. Let the honest person judge.

    Not one Father taught that the earth was round. Not one. We have ambiguous quotes. But even if she can find one, he would be in the minority, because our quotes outnumber that.

    This is how theologians judge Catholic teaching. By what the Fathers taught. Not by what some woman on an internet forum says.

    You say above to let the honest person judge, and I agree. And yet those who staunchly believe in a globe earth are not always honest in what they present. And as such, it's difficult for an honest person, who simply wants to know both sides of the issue, to be able to judge fairly.

    It's as if (with many of those who believe in a globe earth on these threads), they think that being dishonest about the issue is okay, because they are absolutely and always right (they believe), and it doesn't matter if they don't always tell the truth. That's why I won't debate with some of them anymore. But I'm glad that you are bringing the subject up.
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Catholic Flatearth Believers
    « Reply #21 on: November 27, 2019, 03:30:19 PM »
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  • You say above to let the honest person judge, and I agree. And yet those who staunchly believe in a globe earth are not always honest in what they present. And as such, it's difficult for an honest person, who simply wants to know both sides of the issue, to be able to judge fairly.

    It's as if (with many of those who believe in a globe earth on these threads), they think that being dishonest about the issue is okay, because they are absolutely and always right (they believe), and it doesn't matter if they don't always tell the truth. That's why I won't debate with some of them anymore. But I'm glad that you are bringing the subject up.
    I cannot think of any globe earth proponent on these threads who has been dishonest or given any indication that being dishonest is okay.  I know that everything that I have written is something that I believe to be true.  I believe very strongly that telling the truth matters.  

    Perhaps the real reason that you don't debate any more is that deep down you know that you are wrong.

    Offline cassini

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    Re: Catholic Flatearth Believers
    « Reply #22 on: November 28, 2019, 11:20:05 AM »
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  • Perhaps the real reason that you [Meg] don't debate any more is that deep down you know that you are wrong.

    Not Meg Jaynek, from what I read she really does believe the Earth is flat. I hope I am not one of those who she refuses to debate with, for I am most interested to know why she is so convinced.

    Belief in a flat Earth is more a religious belief than one based on human reasoning.
    I believe in many things based on faith that could be said to contradict human reason. Examples of this are the consecrated host, bodies found to be incorrupt, and the many miracles throughout history we hear about. But these are things beyond investigation, not like a flat-Earth.

    Perhaps the one aspect of the flat-earthers that puzzels me most is that they have to deny every picture of Earth taken by satellites, the same satellites that allow CIF to be read and indulged in by all on Earth at the same time, as well as tracking the weather world wide that is forecast with amazing accuracy. Not a night goes by that one cannot see these satellites way above the Earth orbiting it. The assertion that all the evidence of a global Earth that these show are made up to fool the world is beyond my reasoning.

    Finally, this is a subject that one cannot debate without the thumbs downers. If I am debating with someone I do not go behind their back and give them a thumbs down with two of my posts on the other flat-Earth thread. I put up what I disagree with on that post and put my opinion forward rather than a thumbs down. Then again maybe they have no argument and individuals thumb down because of that.


    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Catholic Flatearth Believers
    « Reply #23 on: November 28, 2019, 11:58:35 AM »
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  • Perhaps the one aspect of the flat-earthers that puzzels me most is that they have to deny every picture of Earth taken by satellites, the same satellites that allow CIF to be read and indulged in by all on Earth at the same time, as well as tracking the weather world wide that is forecast with amazing accuracy. Not a night goes by that one cannot see these satellites way above the Earth orbiting it. The assertion that all the evidence of a global Earth that these show are made up to fool the world is beyond my reasoning.

    This is the part that makes the most sense to me.  I can relate to having a deep distrust of government and media.  So much of what we see is about manipulation rather than truth. 

    Finally, this is a subject that one cannot debate without the thumbs downers. If I am debating with someone I do not go behind their back and give them a thumbs down with two of my posts on the other flat-Earth thread. I put up what I disagree with on that post and put my opinion forward rather than a thumbs down. Then again maybe they have no argument and individuals thumb down because of that.

    Yes, I find that frustrating too.  If it makes you feel any better, I upvote most of your posts.  I appreciate your depth of knowledge on this topic. 

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Catholic Flatearth Believers
    « Reply #24 on: November 29, 2019, 09:10:42 AM »
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  • Not one Father taught that the earth was round. Not one. We have ambiguous quotes. But even if she can find one, he would be in the minority, because our quotes outnumber that.

    This is how theologians judge Catholic teaching. By what the Fathers taught. Not by what some woman on an internet forum says.

    I already replied to this but I have since looked at the quotes on the flat earth trads site.   This is a site that claims:  "The Church Fathers were almost unanimous in their opinion that the earth was flat. Here we provide the citations to back that up." They give four quotes from four different Fathers.  In the  forum section of this site, a poster asks, "Could you quote me the complete texts of the Fathers of the Church, where they condemn the spherical Earth? Or at least, pass me the links, please." He receives the reply, "the list here on this thread [using the same 4 quotes that appear in the Church Fathers section of the site] is complete."

    Wikipedia's list of Church Fathers can be seen here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Church_Fathers  There are dozens of names listed.  It is absurd to claim 4 people out of that many shows near unanimity.  Knowledgeable people always concede that a small number of Fathers believed in flat earth.  For example,  Jeffrey Burton Russell, who most acknowledge as an expert in this area says:

    A round earth appears at least as early as the sixth century BC with Pythagoras, who was followed by Aristotle, Euclid, and Aristarchus, among others in observing that the earth was a sphere. Although there were a few dissenters--Leukippos and Demokritos for example--by the time of Eratosthenes (3 c. BC), followed by Crates(2 c. BC), Strabo (3 c. BC), and Ptolemy (first c. AD), the sphericity of the earth was accepted by all educated Greeks and Romans.
    Nor did this situation change with the advent of Christianity. A few--at least two and at most five--early Christian fathers denied the sphericity of earth by mistakenly taking passages such as Ps. 104:2-3 as geographical rather than metaphorical statements. On the other side tens of thousands of Christian theologians, poets, artists, and scientists took the spherical view throughout the early, medieval, and modern church. The point is that no educated person believed otherwise.

    Most of the Fathers on that list do not seem to have said anything about the shape of the earth.  This is not surprising since St. Augustine, St. Basil and St. John Damascene all taught that Scripture is silent on the topic and/or that there is no de fide teaching concerning it (and this was later incrporated into magisterial teaching.)  St. Bede, one of the later Church Fathers, as well as a Doctor of the Church, very clearly taught the earth is a sphere, but as a matter of science not faith.

    There are no reasonable grounds for claiming that flat earth is/was a Church teaching based on what a few Fathers taught.  And after the Patristic period there is no evidence of any Catholic whatsoever believing that the earth was flat (until the recent movement).  The idea that the Catholics did not accept spherical earth originated among anti-Catholic writers as a way to attack the Church.

    Offline Tradman

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    Re: Catholic Flatearth Believers
    « Reply #25 on: November 29, 2019, 01:15:27 PM »
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  • It is true enough that St. Albert was yet another Doctor of the Church who, like St. Thomas and St. Bede, taught that the earth is a sphere.  And it is true that St. Thomas was a student of St. Albert and was probably influenced by him. There is, however, no reason to think that St. Thomas blindly accepted everything that he was told by his teachers.  He measured everything against Church doctrine.

    St. Thomas wrote a commentary on Aristotle's work on cosmology, Περὶ οὐρανοῦ. In this work, St. Thomas carefully went through line by line considering what was true and compatible with Christianity.  In the section concerning the shape of the earth, St. Thomas said that Aristotle taught the truth and made good arguments when he said the earth is a sphere.  

    Since this is a matter of science and not Faith, Catholics are not obliged to accept this.  But there are no grounds whatsoever to claim, as TomGubbinsKimmage just did, that flat earth is a Church teaching or that spherical earth was condemned by the Church.

    Even considering flat earth as a matter of science, we need to keep in mind St. Augustine's warning against causing scandal:

    Usually, even a non-Christian knows something about the earth, the heavens, and the other elements of the world, about the motion and orbit of the stars and even their size and relative positions, about the predictable eclipses of the sun and moon, the cycles of the years and the seasons, about the kinds of animals, shrubs, stones, and so forth, and this knowledge he holds to as being certain from reason and experience. Now, it is a disgraceful and dangerous thing for an infidel to hear a Christian, presumably giving the meaning of Holy Scripture, talking nonsense on these topics; and we should take all means to prevent such an embarrassing situation, in which people show up vast ignorance in a Christian and laugh it to scorn. The shame is not so much that an ignorant individual is derided, but that people outside the household of faith think our sacred writers held such opinions, and, to the great loss of those for whose salvation we toil, the writers of our Scripture are criticized and rejected as unlearned men. If they find a Christian mistaken in a field which they themselves know well and hear him maintaining his foolish opinions about our books, how are they going to believe those books in matters concerning the resurrection of the dead, the hope of eternal life, and the kingdom of heaven, when they think their pages are full of falsehoods on facts which they themselves have learnt from experience and the light of reason? Reckless and incompetent expounders of Holy Scripture bring untold trouble and sorrow on their wiser brethren when they are caught in one of their mischievous false opinions and are taken to task by those who are not bound by the authority of our sacred books. For then, to defend their utterly foolish and obviously untrue statements, they will try to call upon Holy Scripture for proof and even recite from memory many passages which they think support their position, although they understand neither what they say nor the things about which they make assertion [quoting 1 Tim 1:7].
    Please show specifically that St. Albert believed in the globe.  I found otherwise.  

    "Like all medieval Aristotelians, Albert incorporated considerable Platonic thought into his synthesis, and even commented on a number of Neoplatonic treatises. In several places he represents himself as merely reporting the teachings of the Peripatetics and not as proposing anything new; some historians charge him, on this basis, with being a compiler who was not too judicious in his selection of source materials. Those who have studied his works, however, detect there a consistent fidelity to Aristotle’s basic theses, a clear indication of his own views when he thought Aristotle in error, a repudiation of erroneous interpretations of Aristotle’s teaching, and an explicit rejection of Platonic and Pythagorean physical doctrines. " 


    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Catholic Flatearth Believers
    « Reply #26 on: November 29, 2019, 03:04:15 PM »
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  • Please show specifically that St. Albert believed in the globe.  I found otherwise.  

    "Like all medieval Aristotelians, Albert incorporated considerable Platonic thought into his synthesis, and even commented on a number of Neoplatonic treatises. In several places he represents himself as merely reporting the teachings of the Peripatetics and not as proposing anything new; some historians charge him, on this basis, with being a compiler who was not too judicious in his selection of source materials. Those who have studied his works, however, detect there a consistent fidelity to Aristotle’s basic theses, a clear indication of his own views when he thought Aristotle in error, a repudiation of erroneous interpretations of Aristotle’s teaching, and an explicit rejection of Platonic and Pythagorean physical doctrines. "
    This quote does not say that St. Albert did not believe in the globe, just that he disagreed with Aristotle, Plato and Pythagoras on some points.  There is no reason to think that the spherical shape of the earth was one of these points of disagreement.

    Unfortunately, I could not find an English translation of St. Albert's De Caelo et Terra which contains a section on the earth being a sphere.  Here it is in Latin:  https://books.google.ca/books?id=LNJHAQAAMAAJ&pg=RA2-PA229&lpg=RA2-PA229&dq=liber+II+de+coelo+et+terra+tract+iv+caput+ix+magnus&source=bl&ots=ZjKgs0kyZm&sig=ACfU3U2nzG0wHDnD9C8LceddMXdmKlm4LQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwihpPjYopDmAhWqT98KHfT7CkwQ6AEwAHoECAcQAQ#v=onepage&q=liber%20II%20de%20coelo%20et%20terra%20tract%20iv%20caput%20ix%20magnus&f=false

    I have tried to set this up so the link takes you directly to Book 2, Tract 4, Chapter 9  entitled In quo per demonstrationem probatur terra esse sphaericae figurae  "In which the earth is proved to be of a spherical shape through demonstration."

    Offline Tradman

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    Re: Catholic Flatearth Believers
    « Reply #27 on: November 29, 2019, 03:08:32 PM »
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  • I already replied to this but I have since looked at the quotes on the flat earth trads site.   This is a site that claims:  "The Church Fathers were almost unanimous in their opinion that the earth was flat. Here we provide the citations to back that up." They give four quotes from four different Fathers.  In the  forum section of this site, a poster asks, "Could you quote me the complete texts of the Fathers of the Church, where they condemn the spherical Earth? Or at least, pass me the links, please." He receives the reply, "the list here on this thread [using the same 4 quotes that appear in the Church Fathers section of the site] is complete."

    Wikipedia's list of Church Fathers can be seen here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Church_Fathers  There are dozens of names listed.  It is absurd to claim 4 people out of that many shows near unanimity.  Knowledgeable people always concede that a small number of Fathers believed in flat earth.  For example,  Jeffrey Burton Russell, who most acknowledge as an expert in this area says:

    A round earth appears at least as early as the sixth century BC with Pythagoras, who was followed by Aristotle, Euclid, and Aristarchus, among others in observing that the earth was a sphere. Although there were a few dissenters--Leukippos and Demokritos for example--by the time of Eratosthenes (3 c. BC), followed by Crates(2 c. BC), Strabo (3 c. BC), and Ptolemy (first c. AD), the sphericity of the earth was accepted by all educated Greeks and Romans.
    Nor did this situation change with the advent of Christianity. A few--at least two and at most five--early Christian fathers denied the sphericity of earth by mistakenly taking passages such as Ps. 104:2-3 as geographical rather than metaphorical statements. On the other side tens of thousands of Christian theologians, poets, artists, and scientists took the spherical view throughout the early, medieval, and modern church. The point is that no educated person believed otherwise.

    Most of the Fathers on that list do not seem to have said anything about the shape of the earth.  This is not surprising since St. Augustine, St. Basil and St. John Damascene all taught that Scripture is silent on the topic and/or that there is no de fide teaching concerning it (and this was later incrporated into magisterial teaching.)  St. Bede, one of the later Church Fathers, as well as a Doctor of the Church, very clearly taught the earth is a sphere, but as a matter of science not faith.

    There are no reasonable grounds for claiming that flat earth is/was a Church teaching based on what a few Fathers taught.  And after the Patristic period there is no evidence of any Catholic whatsoever believing that the earth was flat (until the recent movement).  The idea that the Catholics did not accept spherical earth originated among anti-Catholic writers as a way to attack the Church.
    This historian says the early fathers of the church had established earth is flat and based it on scripture. 

    HISTORY OF THE WARFARE OF SCIENCE WITH THEOLOGY IN CHRISTENDOM Andrew Dickson White 
    To understand the surface of the earth, Cosmas, following the methods of interpretation which Origen and other early fathers of the Church had established, studies the table of shew-bread in the Jєωιѕн tabernacle. The surface of this table proves to him that the earth is flat, and its dimensions prove that the earth is twice as long as broad; its four corners symbolize the four seasons; the twelve loaves of bread, the twelve months; the hollow about the table proves that the ocean surrounds the earth. 
    ...
    This doctrine was of the highest respectability: it had been developed at a very early period, and had been elaborated until it accounted well for the apparent movements of the heavenly bodies; its final name, "Ptolemaic theory," carried weight; and, having thus come from antiquity into the Christian world, St. Clement of Alexandria demonstrated that the altar in the Jєωιѕн tabernacle was "a symbol of the earth placed in the middle of the universe": nothing more was needed; the geocentric theory was fully adopted by the Church and universally held to agree with the letter and spirit of Scripture.
    ...
    The next of these three great theologians was Peter Lombard, professor at the University of Paris. About the middle of the twelfth century he gave forth his collection of Sentences, or Statements by the Fathers, and this remained until the end of the Middle Ages the universal manual of theology. In it was especially developed the theological view of man's relation to the universe. The author tells the world: "Just as man is made for the sake of God-that is, that he may serve Him,--so the universe is made for the sake of man-that is, that it may serve HIM; therefore is man placed at the middle point of the universe, that he may both serve and be served."

    Offline Tradman

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    Re: Catholic Flatearth Believers
    « Reply #28 on: November 29, 2019, 03:10:27 PM »
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  • This quote does not say that St. Albert did not believe in the globe, just that he disagreed with Aristotle, Plato and Pythagoras on some points.  There is no reason to think that the spherical shape of the earth was one of these points or disagreement.


    Except it says "and an explicit rejection of Platonic and Pythagorean physical doctrines. "  

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Catholic Flatearth Believers
    « Reply #29 on: November 29, 2019, 03:28:35 PM »
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  • This historian says the early fathers of the church had established earth is flat and based it on scripture.

    HISTORY OF THE WARFARE OF SCIENCE WITH THEOLOGY IN CHRISTENDOM Andrew Dickson White

    This historian is notorious for his anti-Catholic agenda and even the Wikipedia (no friend to Catholicism) article on this book indicates how inaccurate it was. For example:

    Historian of science Lawrence Principe writes, "No serious historians of science or of the science-religion issue today maintain the warfare thesis...The origins of the warfare thesis lie in the late 19th century, specifically in the work of two men - John William Draper and Andrew Dickson White. These men had specific political purposes in mind when arguing their case, and the historical foundations of their work are unreliable." [2]
    Principe goes on to write "Despite appearances, White’s arguments are scarcely any better than Draper’s. White uses fallacious arguments and suspect or bogus sources. His methodological errors are collectivism (the unwarrantable extension of an individual’s views to represent that of some larger group of which he is a part), a lack of critical judgement about sources, argument by ridicule and assertion, failure to check primary sources, and quoting selectively and out of context. White popularized the baseless notions that before Columbus and Magellan, the world was thought to be flat and that the Earth’s sphericity was officially opposed by the Church.

    more at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_History_of_the_Warfare_of_Science_with_Theology_in_Christendom

    Treating this book like legitimate history is, in effect, aiding the enemies of the Church to attack her.