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Offline Tradman

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Re: Biblical Flat Earth
« Reply #135 on: August 19, 2023, 03:05:03 PM »
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  • Since this subject started I have seen a FLAT-EARTH become a GLOBAL FLAT-EARTH. Thus any reference to a global Earth is now a Flat global Earth. Now I am very capable of reading what St Augustine said and as I pointed out above:

    'because the Earth hangs within the orbits of heaven, and each part of the world is above and below alike, [only a BALL Earth has an above and a below alike]' A flat Earth only has an above and not a below.

    Augustine debunks the idea that on a Ball Earth, there cannot be people beyond the Church's reach living on a ball Earth.


    It is very clear Augustine reiterates that THEY SAY earth hangs within the orbits of heaven, showing how he's a professional by being totally considerate of what they posit, fully considering whether or not it's a globe. The reason we know this is threefold.  First, if the earth was a globe, then there really ARE antipodes, in Australia, South America, Antarctica, Africa, at least, and our saint would have been wrong. But he says: "thence, THEY gather that the other hemisphere cannot lack inhabitants," still describing what THEY think, which is made even more obvious by the word, thence.  Second, Augustine even debunks the globe earth whether it is land or water, because third, it's not in scripture. These texts may be a little difficult, but he's obviously arguing against the globe as well as antipodes.        

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Biblical Flat Earth
    « Reply #136 on: August 19, 2023, 03:11:36 PM »
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  • Since this subject started I have seen a FLAT-EARTH become a GLOBAL FLAT-EARTH. Thus any reference to a global Earth is now a Flat global Earth. Now I am very capable of reading what St Augustine said and as I pointed out above:

    It's the other way around.  Every time that people like Sungenis and others see the world sphere (and in one case, inexplicably, a "circle") in the Church Fathers, they READ INTO IT (what Sungenis calls "eisegesis") the notion of a ball earth, with people walking on the surface of a ball.  That is simply not the case.  One of Sungenis' reference describes the earth / world etc. (it's important to actually try to find the original Greek / Latin for the word they're actually using), one of the Fathers says the earth / world is in the shape of a sphere with a circular cross-section.  What is this cross-section on the ball earth?  This is clearly a reference to the surface of the earth cutting through the spherical shape of the world, to produce the inhabitable lands.  Just like in English when people speak of "earth", the could be speaking about the planet earth, the entire thing, or they could be speaking about the ground on which we walk, those references to the shape of the world by the Fathers need additional study.

    What typifies Sungenis' reading stuff into the Fathers is when he picks DaVincis' Salvator Mundi for the cover of his FE book because Our Lord is depicted holding a globe.  Problem here is that the globe has some stars at the top and shows the top part blue and the lower part earth color.  Most scholars think the stars are the constellation Leo.  Last time I checked, we don't have stars in the Ocean, whether you're a Glober or an FE.  This blunder typifies Sungenis' reading of NASA's "ball" into any reference to globe (or even circle) in the Fathers.

    So it is YOU, the NASA ballers, who have twisted the globular shape of the world into meaning a ball.


    Offline Tradman

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    Re: Biblical Flat Earth
    « Reply #137 on: August 19, 2023, 03:24:15 PM »
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  • For more context on Augustine and his beliefs:
    Leo Ferrari (a glober) explains that Augustine was influenced by his conversion to the Christian religion after being raised in the pagan mindset
    and rejected the globe because the Christians rejected it. 


    Augustine and the School of Antioch
    Since Augustine left us no systematic depiction of the physical structure of the

    world, a study of his views cannot possibly abstract from the general context of the

    (1980): 268–277; D. Woodward, “Medieval Mappaemundi,” in The History of Cartography, vol. 1,



    Cartography in Prehistoric, Ancient, and Medieval Europe and the Mediterranean, ed. J. B. Har-

    ley and D. Woodward (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1987), 286–370, at 320; Krüger,



    Das lateinische Mittelalter, 45–100 (see n. 3). See also the letters by Stevens and McCready to

    Isis 87 (1996): 678–679.

    10. See K. A. Vogel, Sphaera terrae: Das mittelalterliche Bild der Erde und die kosmographische

    Revolution (PhD thesis, Göttingen, 1995), http://webdoc.sub.gwdg.de/diss/2000/vogel/index.htm.



    Nothaft: Augustine and the Shape of the Earth: A Critique of Leo Ferrari



    37



    cosmological assumptions that were current among educated North Africans in the

    fourth and fifth centuries. A glance at the works of the great Roman encyclopedists,

    from Pliny the Elder (c. 79) to Macrobius (c. 400) and Martianus Capella (c. 420),

    strongly suggests that the dominant picture of the universe in Augustine’s day was

    essentially still that propagated in Plato’s Timaeus and Aristotle’s On the Heavens.

    According to this picture, the universe is composed of two main parts, a celestial

    and an earthly (or sub-lunar) realm, both of which are structured by concentric

    spheres. In the case of the sub-lunar realm, these spheres are made up by the four

    elements, which are ordered according to their heaviness or density. Earth, as the

    heaviest element, is massed together in the form of a solid globe at the center of



    the universe, surrounded by concentric spheres of water, air and fire. Since Au-

    gustine received a classical “pagan” education, which included some engagement



    with Platonic philosophy, there is no reason to doubt that he was familiar with this

    picture.11 In order for Ferrari to be right, however, he must have largely abandoned

    it in his later years as a consequence of his conversion to Christianity, because the

    cosmology contained in the Hebrew Scriptures precluded an acceptance of what I
    will hereafter call the “spherical model.”12



    There is no point in denying that the notion of the earth’s sphericity came under
    attack from certain Christian quarters during late antiquity. The center of dissent
    can be located in the exegetical school of Antioch, whose members professed a
    literal reading of Genesis, tied to a strong skepticism towards the explanations of
    the structure of the cosmos offered by pagan philosophers.13 An important witness
    to the roots of this tradition is Photius of Constantinople, who informs us about the
    lost tract Against Fate by Diodore, who became bishop of Tarsus in 378. It appears
    that Diodore saw an intrinsic connection between deterministic astrology, which
    he—like most Christian writers—rejected, and the pagan doctrine of a spherical
    universe.


    In order to back up his conviction that the heaven was shaped like a tent
    rather than a sphere, he produced “testimonies drawn from Scripture, not just

    11. See Aristotle, On the Heavens, trans. W. K. C. Guthrie (London: Heinemann, 1960); F. M. Corn-
    ford, Plato’s Cosmology (London: Routledge & Kegan Paul, 1937). On the encyclopedists see

    Krüger, Das Überleben, 120–150, 189–192, 278–350 (see n. 3); F. S. Betten, “The Knowledge of
    the Sphericity of the Earth during the Earlier Middle Ages,” Catholic Historical Review 9 (1923):
    74–90, at 76–83. On Augustine’s knowledge of the Timaeus and other Platonic teachings see
    F. van Fleteren, s.v. “Plato, Platonism,” in Augustine through the Ages, 651–654 (see n. 7).
    12. On the cosmology of the bible see now L. Montagnini, “La questione della forma della terra:
    Dalle origini alla tarda antichità,” Studi sull’Oriente Cristiano 13, no. 2 (2009): 31–68, at 34–35;
    Garwood, Flat Earth, 363–369 (see n. 4).
    13. C. Schäublin, Untersuchungen zu Methode und Herkunft der antiochenischen Exegese (Cologne:
    Hanstein, 1974); Montagnini, “La questione,” 62–65 (see n. 12).

    Nothaft: Augustine and the Shape of the Earth: A Critique of Leo Ferrari

    38

    concerning the form of the heaven, but also on the rising and setting of the sun.”
    Photius was markedly critical of Diodore, noting that he was undoubtedly “a true
    believer,” but that his scriptural proofs were lacking in cogency.14
    There is some evidence that Diodore of Tarsus passed on his cosmological views
    to his students, which included Theodore of Mopsuestia (c. 350–428/29) and John
    Chrysostom (c. 345–407). In his tract On the Creation of the World (546/60), John
    Philoponus repeatedly criticizes Theodore and his school for their use of biblical
    citations in an effort to contradict the spherical cosmology of the philosophers.15
    That Chrysostom held similar views to Diodore and Theodore concerning the earth’s
    flatness becomes apparent from his references to the world as a cosmic tabernacle.16
    An even clearer picture is provided by one of Chrysostom’s contemporaries (and
    personal rivals), Severianus of Gabala (d. after 408), whose Homilies on Genesis
    depict a tabernacle-shaped universe with a flat earth at the bottom.17 Finally, there is the famous sixth-century case of Cosmas Indicopleustes, whose Christian To-
    pography (ca. 550) contains by far the most elaborate and systematic example of a scripturally derived flat-earth cosmology that has come down to us. Although
    Cosmas spent most of his life in Byzantine Egypt, there are clear links between his
    own writings and the aforementioned Syriac or Antiochene tradition.



    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Biblical Flat Earth
    « Reply #138 on: September 23, 2023, 01:25:33 PM »
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  • From the mailbag --


    I recently wrote to you about biblical flat earth; here is some further elaboration.

    In the Secunda Secundae, q. 84, art. 3 (the reply to obj. 3), of the Summa, Saint Thomas mentions the location of the Garden of Immortality in the East as a reason for worship of God towards the East; the liturgical east thus has a connection to Eden. It is also fascinating how the words of the blessing of baptismal water in the liturgy of the Paschal Vigil are compatible with the view of Cosmas Indicopleustes according to which the water from Paradise goes underground and surfaces in four branches in the "middangeard" as the rivers Nile, Euphrates, Tigris and Ganges. The hand movement of the priest dividing the water represents the flowing of the water from Paradise to the four parts of the world.

    Saint Thomas also mentions the ascending of Christ towards the East. This is important in the context of cosmographic aspects in architecture.

    FE cosmography was used in pagan architecture; the ancient pagan cults corrupted the traditions of Noah our longfather, and biblical cosmography was part of those traditions, and so things like four corners of the earth were represented in temples of wickedness. By having their dark rituals perpetrated within and upon such structures, the demons wanted to represent their pretense of dominance over the four corners of the earth. Also, ancient Mesopotamian tyrants called themselves kings of the four corners of the world. The dark angels have also inserted cosmography in Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ, and some high degree masons (who speak to them through sorcery that they call "theurgy" like John Dee centuries ago) are aware of it; thirty third degree mason Albert Pike wrote the following in his book "Morals and Dogma": "The SQUARE is an instrument adapted for plane surfaces only, and therefore appropriate to Geometry, or measurement of the Earth, which appears to be, and was by the Ancients supposed to be, a plane."

    The square was deemed a tool for geometrical measurement because the earth was a square plane.

    But whereas the dark powers use cosmography to subvert it with satanism, the Temple of Jerusalem bore cosmographic aspects to set forth Messianic Prophecy; Christ would pass through the East Gate of the Temple, which represents the passing of Christ, at the Ascension, through the Eastern Gate of Heaven into the aetherial realm. The Temple represented the created world, and the Holy of Holies represented the aetherial heaven beyond the aerial (earthly) heaven and the solid firmament; the Lord Jesus has passed into that aetherial Holy of Holies to officiate as Priest before the Ancient of Days (biblical cosmography thus helps one understand Hebrews 8). The four corners of the altar represented the four corners of the earthly realm in which the Holy Sacrifice of the Cross has taken place. In the feria II infra Octavam Ascensionis in the old Breviary before the readings were reduced, in lectio 7, St. Gregory the Great distinguishes the aerial heaven from the aetherial heaven, speaking of Christ ascending into the aetherial one whereas Elias was merely taken up through the aerial heaven; the ancient men distinguished those two heavens; there was no copernican "space" between those two heavens.

    Archeology even indicates that ordinary Israelite houses were built according to biblical cosmography, having their doors on the east sides. There is an article about this on "Biblical Archaeology" titled "Israelite Cosmology and the Orientation of Iron Age Houses" (21 november 2017) by Marek Dospěl. On the Madaba Map, the East and not the North is placed at the top.

    The cupola in Byzantine architecture represents the circular firmament.

    While it is possible to attach four corners to the zetetic FE version, by doing so you would get four southern corners, and that is not how the ancient Hebrews viewed the earth; each extremity of the earth represented one of the four cardinal directions.

    Biblical cosmography also gives a clearer understanding of the New Heaven and the New Earth announced in the Book of Apocalypse, for in the end the solid firmament barrier and the luminaries will be removed, and the aetherial realm and the earthly realm will be converged; thus it will be the aetherial fire from above that will cleanse the earth, and in the renewed and transformed world the sun, moon and stars will be no more, and the Son of Man Himself will be its Light.

    Regarding the course of the sun; the ancient Hebrews understood the sun to truly ascend in the East and descend in the West. In the Book of the Bee by Salomo of Akhlat (chapter 10 about the luminaries) a belief is mentioned according to which the sun after setting in the West returns to the East behind mountains in the North; this would mean that during summer solstice the sun is high enough above those mountains to be able to be seen during the night in the Arctic region.

    In the Vitae Patrum there is a tale about three monks, Theophilus, Sergius and Hyginus, who go to seek the place at the end of the earth where the heaven (firmament) is conjoined to the earth; they find Saint Macarius near Paradise, but during their journey they find an inscription left by king Alexander; in the old Alexander stories king Alexander of the Greeks wanted to go where the heaven comes down to the earth. This shows that Cosmas Indicopleustes was not the only one to have believed that the Garden of Eden was beyond the vast ocean near the end of the firmament.

    Regarding what I said about the Bering Strait; I meant that there is no transpacific travel (eastwards to the West and westwards to the East) as there is also no travel southwards to the North and northwards to the South; it is a lie to hide the Edenic continent where the firmament rests upon the walls of the earth (the foundations of heaven), beyond which there are the cosmic waters.

    After the time of the church fathers an arestotelian globe earth geocentrism became the dominant opinion among the learned in the West, but it was in some aspects closer to FE than to the later copernican system because it involved a globe in the middle of seven concentric heaven-structures, one of those structures being the solid firmament separating the celestial ocean from the earth. Also, only the top of the globe was deemed to be inhabited (no antipodal habitations), which gave a notion of the cardinal directions not relativistic as in copernicanism. But it still involved a relativistic notion of up and down, placing the heavens both above and under men and Sheol; it also involved the horror of calling Sheol the center of the created world. It was a compromise between FE and a notion that originated in a pantheistic cosmology. Against the present pantheistic copernicanism that has poisoned and subverted the minds of multitudes the correct reaction is not to return to the old compromise, but to return to the ancient cosmology of Moses, who was not only Lawgiver but also Cosmographer.


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    Offline Tradman

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    Re: Biblical Flat Earth
    « Reply #139 on: September 23, 2023, 02:58:49 PM »
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  • From the mailbag --


    I recently wrote to you about biblical flat earth; here is some further elaboration.

    In the Secunda Secundae, q. 84, art. 3 (the reply to obj. 3), of the Summa, Saint Thomas mentions the location of the Garden of Immortality in the East as a reason for worship of God towards the East; the liturgical east thus has a connection to Eden. It is also fascinating how the words of the blessing of baptismal water in the liturgy of the Paschal Vigil are compatible with the view of Cosmas Indicopleustes according to which the water from Paradise goes underground and surfaces in four branches in the "middangeard" as the rivers Nile, Euphrates, Tigris and Ganges. The hand movement of the priest dividing the water represents the flowing of the water from Paradise to the four parts of the world.

    Saint Thomas also mentions the ascending of Christ towards the East. This is important in the context of cosmographic aspects in architecture.

    FE cosmography was used in pagan architecture; the ancient pagan cults corrupted the traditions of Noah our longfather, and biblical cosmography was part of those traditions, and so things like four corners of the earth were represented in temples of wickedness. By having their dark rituals perpetrated within and upon such structures, the demons wanted to represent their pretense of dominance over the four corners of the earth. Also, ancient Mesopotamian tyrants called themselves kings of the four corners of the world. The dark angels have also inserted cosmography in Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ, and some high degree masons (who speak to them through sorcery that they call "theurgy" like John Dee centuries ago) are aware of it; thirty third degree mason Albert Pike wrote the following in his book "Morals and Dogma": "The SQUARE is an instrument adapted for plane surfaces only, and therefore appropriate to Geometry, or measurement of the Earth, which appears to be, and was by the Ancients supposed to be, a plane."

    The square was deemed a tool for geometrical measurement because the earth was a square plane.

    But whereas the dark powers use cosmography to subvert it with satanism, the Temple of Jerusalem bore cosmographic aspects to set forth Messianic Prophecy; Christ would pass through the East Gate of the Temple, which represents the passing of Christ, at the Ascension, through the Eastern Gate of Heaven into the aetherial realm. The Temple represented the created world, and the Holy of Holies represented the aetherial heaven beyond the aerial (earthly) heaven and the solid firmament; the Lord Jesus has passed into that aetherial Holy of Holies to officiate as Priest before the Ancient of Days (biblical cosmography thus helps one understand Hebrews 8). The four corners of the altar represented the four corners of the earthly realm in which the Holy Sacrifice of the Cross has taken place. In the feria II infra Octavam Ascensionis in the old Breviary before the readings were reduced, in lectio 7, St. Gregory the Great distinguishes the aerial heaven from the aetherial heaven, speaking of Christ ascending into the aetherial one whereas Elias was merely taken up through the aerial heaven; the ancient men distinguished those two heavens; there was no copernican "space" between those two heavens.

    Archeology even indicates that ordinary Israelite houses were built according to biblical cosmography, having their doors on the east sides. There is an article about this on "Biblical Archaeology" titled "Israelite Cosmology and the Orientation of Iron Age Houses" (21 november 2017) by Marek Dospěl. On the Madaba Map, the East and not the North is placed at the top.

    The cupola in Byzantine architecture represents the circular firmament.

    While it is possible to attach four corners to the zetetic FE version, by doing so you would get four southern corners, and that is not how the ancient Hebrews viewed the earth; each extremity of the earth represented one of the four cardinal directions.

    Biblical cosmography also gives a clearer understanding of the New Heaven and the New Earth announced in the Book of Apocalypse, for in the end the solid firmament barrier and the luminaries will be removed, and the aetherial realm and the earthly realm will be converged; thus it will be the aetherial fire from above that will cleanse the earth, and in the renewed and transformed world the sun, moon and stars will be no more, and the Son of Man Himself will be its Light.

    Regarding the course of the sun; the ancient Hebrews understood the sun to truly ascend in the East and descend in the West. In the Book of the Bee by Salomo of Akhlat (chapter 10 about the luminaries) a belief is mentioned according to which the sun after setting in the West returns to the East behind mountains in the North; this would mean that during summer solstice the sun is high enough above those mountains to be able to be seen during the night in the Arctic region.

    In the Vitae Patrum there is a tale about three monks, Theophilus, Sergius and Hyginus, who go to seek the place at the end of the earth where the heaven (firmament) is conjoined to the earth; they find Saint Macarius near Paradise, but during their journey they find an inscription left by king Alexander; in the old Alexander stories king Alexander of the Greeks wanted to go where the heaven comes down to the earth. This shows that Cosmas Indicopleustes was not the only one to have believed that the Garden of Eden was beyond the vast ocean near the end of the firmament.

    Regarding what I said about the Bering Strait; I meant that there is no transpacific travel (eastwards to the West and westwards to the East) as there is also no travel southwards to the North and northwards to the South; it is a lie to hide the Edenic continent where the firmament rests upon the walls of the earth (the foundations of heaven), beyond which there are the cosmic waters.

    After the time of the church fathers an arestotelian globe earth geocentrism became the dominant opinion among the learned in the West, but it was in some aspects closer to FE than to the later copernican system because it involved a globe in the middle of seven concentric heaven-structures, one of those structures being the solid firmament separating the celestial ocean from the earth. Also, only the top of the globe was deemed to be inhabited (no antipodal habitations), which gave a notion of the cardinal directions not relativistic as in copernicanism. But it still involved a relativistic notion of up and down, placing the heavens both above and under men and Sheol; it also involved the horror of calling Sheol the center of the created world. It was a compromise between FE and a notion that originated in a pantheistic cosmology. Against the present pantheistic copernicanism that has poisoned and subverted the minds of multitudes the correct reaction is not to return to the old compromise, but to return to the ancient cosmology of Moses, who was not only Lawgiver but also Cosmographer.

    Excellent information showing the earth is a cosmological macrocosm of the House of God, the Temple, the Ark of the Covenant, as well as the Church, and church architecture.  There is more information available, we haven't touched yet, on how Christ Himself is a type of the earth, something this guy may well know about. Everything above shows that the earth has four corners, with land in a circuмscribed circle at the center. The oceans are within, and a great sea is outside the land masses.  Hell is below us and heaven above, which is represented by the holy of holies.  This also explains that the heavens are bound to the earth, where outer mountains support the dome, as Cosmas tells us.  This also denies the ridiculous notion that there can be NSEW directions on a globe, but shows that directions are absolutes and not just relative. Also mentioned is the tracing of the cross by the priest, showing the dividing of the waters. I was hoping for this kind of information to surface. Once Catholics recognize earth is not a globe, additional eyes will find a lot more.  It would be great to talk with this guy.    
      


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Biblical Flat Earth
    « Reply #140 on: September 23, 2023, 03:18:27 PM »
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  • From the mailbag --

    Does this individual have a picture of what he thinks the world looks like?  At some point, one of the Oceans has to end (vs. going in a circle), so where's the dividing line?  Even if you claim it looks something like the Mercator projection, North would still be everywhere from side to side across the map, and the 4 corners would be NE, NW, SE, SW.  IMO, it's not essential that the 4 corners of the earth coincide with the 4 "cardinal directions", and I suffer from a failure of imagination to show the earth with the 4 corners being the 4 cardinal directions.

    To me the Antarctica ice wall still makes the most sense, and we do know there's travel across the Oceans in both directions, and so I'm having a hard time envisioning this model.  I don't rule it out, but I also can't even envision what this would look like.

    Offline poenitens

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    Re: Biblical Flat Earth
    « Reply #141 on: September 23, 2023, 03:25:08 PM »
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  • The Creation of the World by Hieronymous Bosch (exterior panels of the Garden of Early Delights), 1495-1505
    ¡Viva Jesús!

    Please, disregard any opinions and references that I have posted that may seem favorable to any traditionalist group, especially those that pertinaciously deny EENS (CMRI, Sanborn, Dolan and associates, for example).

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Biblical Flat Earth
    « Reply #142 on: September 23, 2023, 03:29:01 PM »
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  • Here's a map from 1587 by Monte Urbano:


    Offline Tradman

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    Re: Biblical Flat Earth
    « Reply #143 on: September 23, 2023, 04:16:57 PM »
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  • Does this individual have a picture of what he thinks the world looks like?  At some point, one of the Oceans has to end (vs. going in a circle), so where's the dividing line?  Even if you claim it looks something like the Mercator projection, North would still be everywhere from side to side across the map, and the 4 corners would be NE, NW, SE, SW.  IMO, it's not essential that the 4 corners of the earth coincide with the 4 "cardinal directions", and I suffer from a failure of imagination to show the earth with the 4 corners being the 4 cardinal directions.

    To me the Antarctica ice wall still makes the most sense, and we do know there's travel across the Oceans in both directions, and so I'm having a hard time envisioning this model.  I don't rule it out, but I also can't even envision what this would look like.

    It really would be nice to get a true map of the earth. I'm torn between the circular version and the rectangular version.  I favor the circular because it seems to work better with my limited understanding, but there are many religious references supporting the rectangular version, which, according to Enoch and Cosmas, works with the sun that disappears behind a huge mountain in the north. Then the sun 'rushes' back to it's eastern window for rising.  One thing in modern times that favors the rectangular shape of land masses are the everyday maps online, where the entirety of the earth is a rectangle, longer east and west, and shorter north and south.  The rectangular map also fits with Our Lady of Guadalupe laid out above the earth where her feet are in the east and her head is in the west and she faces upward to heaven, but that may or may not correspond to land mass.  The mail bag letter suggested the rectangular version and offered some support for it.     

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Biblical Flat Earth
    « Reply #144 on: September 23, 2023, 05:59:42 PM »
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  • It really would be nice to get a true map of the earth. I'm torn between the circular version and the rectangular version.  I favor the circular because it seems to work better with my limited understanding, but there are many religious references supporting the rectangular version ...  


    I'm all ears about the square/rectancular map, except I'd like to see a proposal for what it might look like.  Ships sail across both oceans in both directions.

    Something like the circle within a square would seem to work.  We don't really know what's past the edge of Antarctica.

    Offline Tradman

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    Re: Biblical Flat Earth
    « Reply #145 on: September 23, 2023, 07:30:57 PM »
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  • Below are some interesting statements from the mailbag guy regarding the rectangular/square shape of land masses on earth.  Any ordinary flat map shows a rectangular shaped land masses of earth like the one provided below.  We just can't be sure things are laid out exactly as shown. 

    You said: Ships sail across oceans in both directions. That's the weird part. Mailbag guy says they don't (in bold, in the 4th statement).  Are we missing something?  By the way, the second statement suggests the Mercator map is inaccurate regarding the cardinal directions.  


    Archeology even indicates that ordinary Israelite houses were built according to biblical cosmography, having their doors on the east sides. There is an article about this on "Biblical Archaeology" titled "Israelite Cosmology and the Orientation of Iron Age Houses" (21 november 2017) by Marek Dospěl. On the Madaba Map, the East and not the North is placed at the top.

    While it is possible to attach four corners to the zetetic FE version, by doing so you would get four southern corners, and that is not how the ancient Hebrews viewed the earth; each extremity of the earth represented one of the four cardinal directions.

    Regarding what I said about the Bering Strait; I meant that there is no transpacific travel (eastwards to the West and westwards to the East) as there is also no travel southwards to the North and northwards to the South; it is a lie to hide the Edenic continent where the firmament rests upon the walls of the earth (the foundations of heaven), beyond which there are the cosmic waters.



    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Biblical Flat Earth
    « Reply #146 on: September 23, 2023, 09:38:29 PM »
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  • "Mailbag" should join the forum to make the case, since the details and evidence for his position are unclear.

    Offline AnthonyPadua

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    Re: Biblical Flat Earth
    « Reply #147 on: September 24, 2023, 03:21:42 AM »
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  • Below are some interesting statements from the mailbag guy regarding the rectangular/square shape of land masses on earth.  Any ordinary flat map shows a rectangular shaped land masses of earth like the one provided below.  We just can't be sure things are laid out exactly as shown.

    You said: Ships sail across oceans in both directions. That's the weird part. Mailbag guy says they don't (in bold, in the 4th statement).  Are we missing something?  By the way, the second statement suggests the Mercator map is inaccurate regarding the cardinal directions. 


    Archeology even indicates that ordinary Israelite houses were built according to biblical cosmography, having their doors on the east sides. There is an article about this on "Biblical Archaeology" titled "Israelite Cosmology and the Orientation of Iron Age Houses" (21 november 2017) by Marek Dospěl. On the Madaba Map, the East and not the North is placed at the top.

    While it is possible to attach four corners to the zetetic FE version, by doing so you would get four southern corners, and that is not how the ancient Hebrews viewed the earth; each extremity of the earth represented one of the four cardinal directions.

    Regarding what I said about the Bering Strait; I meant that there is no transpacific travel (eastwards to the West and westwards to the East) as there is also no travel southwards to the North and northwards to the South; it is a lie to hide the Edenic continent where the firmament rests upon the walls of the earth (the foundations of heaven), beyond which there are the cosmic waters.


    Alright who is mailbag guy and can this rectangular earth work with that convex earth video i have seen? And egg is quite rectangular.

    Offline Tradman

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    Re: Biblical Flat Earth
    « Reply #148 on: September 24, 2023, 10:51:34 AM »
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  • Alright who is mailbag guy and can this rectangular earth work with that convex earth video i have seen? And egg is quite rectangular.

    I have a feeling mailbag guy is a priest, so it would be really nice to discuss more with him.  Perhaps it isn't a good idea to come out of the flat earth closet for him even if he's a layman. 

    I used the egg shaped map to show how the globe thing works with the rectangular world map.  Most of the world maps don't have the rounded edges and there are tons of them online. Even still, we're not getting the whole picture no matter what, so I find it best to reserve opinion.   
     

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Biblical Flat Earth
    « Reply #149 on: September 24, 2023, 11:13:05 AM »
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  • I have a feeling mailbag guy is a priest, so it would be really nice to discuss more with him.  Perhaps it isn't a good idea to come out of the flat earth closet for him even if he's a layman. 


    Yeah, but you don't have to reveal that you're a priest while signing up for an account here.  There are some priests lurking and posting here that haven't revealed themselves.