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Author Topic: Biblical Flat Earth  (Read 19226 times)

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Offline Tradman

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Re: Biblical Flat Earth
« Reply #90 on: August 17, 2023, 01:19:30 PM »
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    • Quote from: Always on August 17, 2023, 11:54:48 AM
    The FE/GE CATHINFO Battle of the Titans continues on with the FE Powerhouse Team of Ladislaus, Matthew, & Tradman along with their contributing supporters going up against the GE Giants SeanJohnson, Cassini & Robert Sungenis 

    Sungenis just spent several minutes attempting to explain away the firmament, literally asking where this "dome idea" came from.  :facepalm: Reinterpreting Scripture is either dishonest or the man is uniformed, something he shouldn't be if he's going to write a book on the subject.  Because he pretends to be an expert, ignorance of the beautiful exegesis and typology brought forth by the Fathers of the Church is shameful. While talking about space at one point he literally tells his audience they're falling asleep on him again. :laugh1:  The video is definitely boring, basically unsourced and devoid of readily available information that make his arguments freakishly empty.         
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    Offline Marulus Fidelis

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    Re: Biblical Flat Earth
    « Reply #91 on: August 17, 2023, 01:55:07 PM »
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    • Quote from: Tradman on August 17, 2023, 01:19:30 PM
    Sungenis just spent several minutes attempting to explain away the firmament, literally asking where this "dome idea" came from.  :facepalm: Reinterpreting Scripture is either dishonest or the man is uniformed, something he shouldn't be if he's going to write a book on the subject.  Because he pretends to be an expert, ignorance of the beautiful exegesis and typology brought forth by the Fathers of the Church is shameful. While talking about space at one point he literally tells his audience they're falling asleep on him again. :laugh1:  The video is definitely boring, basically unsourced and devoid of readily available information that make his arguments freakishly empty.       
    While I was uninformed on FE I still found his blatherings based on modern science dull and pathetic. Citing those clowns just gives them credibility they don't deserve.

    Like when the Protestant evolutionists want to ingratiate themselves with the mainstream they debate creationists to gain some respect from the atheists, creationists do the same to young earth creationists and the latter to flat earthers.

    It should be easy to spot this by looking at who they're citing. When they're representing the truth they present independent research and defend the Bible, but when they're wrong suddenly the Bible needs to be "understood", "explained", "in context", and we're treated to Einstein and NASA citations.
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    Offline Tradman

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    Re: Biblical Flat Earth
    « Reply #92 on: August 17, 2023, 02:52:05 PM »
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    • Quote from: Marulus Fidelis on August 17, 2023, 01:55:07 PM

    It should be easy to spot this by looking at who they're citing. When they're representing the truth they present independent research and defend the Bible, but when they're wrong suddenly the Bible needs to be "understood", "explained", "in context", and we're treated to Einstein and NASA citations.

    This is so true. So guess who Sungenis cites against Scripture and the Fathers of the Church? He mentions a guy named Horowitz in the video.  I searched and found Frank Horowitz, Department of Earth and Atmospheric Sciences     at Cornell U.  If that's the same guy, Sungenis can just take the next Coriolis vortex down the pot because that's where people like he and Horowitz get their information. The more I find about Sungenis, the creepier things get.  Almost all Sungenis' sources are atheist Big Bang modern scientists. A sample of what he uses in his book includes Paul C. W. Davies, James Clerk Maxwell, Dr. Abhay Ashtekar, and Stephen Hawking. If Sungenis talks about Scripture, he tells us either we aren't smart enough to understand it, or it doesn't say what we think it says. :sleep:    
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    Offline Always

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    Re: Biblical Flat Earth
    « Reply #93 on: August 17, 2023, 07:36:56 PM »
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    • Quote from: Tradman on August 17, 2023, 02:52:05 PM

    If Sungenis talks about Scripture, he tells us either we aren't smart enough to understand it, or it doesn't say what we think it says. :sleep:   


    Where exactly does he say or write this?  Can you provide book and page number with verbatim passage and or video with exact time?

    Just curious.  How well do you know Greek?  How well do you know Latin?  How well do you know Hebrew?

    Does it matter to you at all how masterful Sungenis is with all three of these languages?  Do you consider his mastery of these languages to have any bearing whatsoever on his ability to properly understand and correctly interpret Sacred Scripture?
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    Offline Croixalist

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    Re: Biblical Flat Earth
    « Reply #94 on: August 17, 2023, 08:42:15 PM »
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    • The best thing I can say about Sungenis is that he's a grifter. Imagine preaching Geocentrism to a bunch of Protestants like it's more important than the actual Catholic faith. Listen to him long enough and he'll leave you ready to be the next Harold Camping.
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    Offline Always

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    Re: Biblical Flat Earth
    « Reply #95 on: August 17, 2023, 09:25:52 PM »
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    • Quote from: Croixalist on August 17, 2023, 08:42:15 PM
    The best thing I can say about Sungenis is that he's a grifter. Imagine preaching Geocentrism to a bunch of Protestants like it's more important than the actual Catholic faith. Listen to him long enough and he'll leave you ready to be the next Harold Camping.

    Even if you disagree with him on some things, it is truly amazing that you would say that about this individual.  I wonder what you have accomplished in your life.


    https://www.robertsungenis.org/p/about.html
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    Offline gladius_veritatis

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    Re: Biblical Flat Earth
    « Reply #96 on: August 17, 2023, 09:42:49 PM »
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    • Quote from: Always on August 17, 2023, 07:36:56 PM
    How well do you know Hebrew?

    Do you consider his mastery of these languages to have any bearing whatsoever on his ability to properly understand and correctly interpret Sacred Scripture?

    The Judaics know Hebrew.  Oddly, doesn't seem to do them any good where proper and correct understanding of the OT is concerned.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Biblical Flat Earth
    « Reply #97 on: August 17, 2023, 09:53:06 PM »
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    • Quote from: Always on August 17, 2023, 07:36:56 PM
    Where exactly does he say or write this?  Can you provide book and page number with verbatim passage and or video with exact time?

    Just curious.  How well do you know Greek?  How well do you know Latin?  How well do you know Hebrew?

    Does it matter to you at all how masterful Sungenis is with all three of these languages?  Do you consider his mastery of these languages to have any bearing whatsoever on his ability to properly understand and correctly interpret Sacred Scripture?

    I know Latin, Greek, and Hebrew, the first two very well, the last well enough to basically read it and consult a lexicon for word derivations.  Dr. Sungenis was not well prepared for Rob Skiba, and the latter actually won the points regarding several disputed points regarding Hebrew.

    Nevertheless, I don't really care about Hebrew or Greek or Latin at the end of the day.  I care about the unanimous Patristic interpretation of Sacred Scripture.  I rely on the Fathers and not on what some Lexicon says.  In fact, I trust the translators of the Hebrew into the Septuagint and St. Jerome much more than I trust modern Lexica.
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    Offline gladius_veritatis

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    Re: Biblical Flat Earth
    « Reply #98 on: August 17, 2023, 09:56:23 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on August 17, 2023, 09:53:06 PM
    Nevertheless, I don't really care about Hebrew or Greek or Latin at the end of the day.  I care about the unanimous Patristic interpretation of Sacred Scripture.  I rely on the Fathers and not on what some Lexicon says.  In fact, I trust the translators of the Hebrew into the Septuagint and St. Jerome much more than I trust modern Lexica.

    Bobby Sun's water boy doesn't care about the truth or that he asked one man (Tradman) a question and three answered, although not in the way he wanted.  He never answered either of my questions, but I couldn't care less what a voluntarily-blind man has to say about anything.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Biblical Flat Earth
    « Reply #99 on: August 17, 2023, 10:00:40 PM »
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    • raqia in Hebrew derives from the root word to beat or stamp out, and is used in several places in the OT for stamping out gold or other metals into sheets.  Greek stereoma, used by the Septuagint translators, has the exact same connotation of solidity, also referring to stretched or beaten out metal.  St. Jerome, who knew both Hebrew and Greek, also adopted that sense, using the Latin firmamentum.  Between the translators of the Septuagint and St. Jerome, they knew Hebrew and Greek, and St. Jerome Latin also, better than any living human being in modern times.

    More importantly than etymological considerations, Sacred Scripture describes the firmament and its properties.  It holds back waters from the earth, and it has windows that could be opened to allow these waters to inundate the earth during the great flood, and these were obviously literal H2O waters.  Finally, and definitively, the Church Fathers all unanimously agreed that there were liquid H2O waters (not metaphorical waters) held up by this firmament.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Biblical Flat Earth
    « Reply #100 on: August 17, 2023, 10:06:16 PM »
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    • Quote from: Always on August 17, 2023, 09:25:52 PM
    Even if you disagree with him on some things, it is truly amazing that you would say that about this individual.  I wonder what you have accomplished in your life.


    https://www.robertsungenis.org/p/about.html


    Great.  I'd love to be able to make a living doing scholarly work, but my state in life doesn't permit it.  What one has "accomplished in life" depends entirely on how well he has conformed to the will of God for it.  Some humble illiterate nun who lived a holy life accomplished more with her life than all scholars combined.  St. Therese of Lisieux accomplished more in her 24 years on earth than hundreds of Sungenis lifetimes.  It also doesn't help his case that he's an enemy of Traditional Catholicism.
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    Offline Always

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    Re: Biblical Flat Earth
    « Reply #101 on: August 17, 2023, 10:52:26 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on August 17, 2023, 10:06:16 PM
    Great.  I'd love to be able to make a living doing scholarly work, but my state in life doesn't permit it.  What one has "accomplished in life" depends entirely on how well he has conformed to the will of God for it.  Some humble illiterate nun who lived a holy life accomplished more with her life than all scholars combined.  St. Therese of Lisieux accomplished more in her 24 years on earth than hundreds of Sungenis lifetimes.  It also doesn't help his case that he's an enemy of Traditional Catholicism.

    Just to put some focus back on my comment which was directed at Croixalist, not you, who stated the following: "The best thing I can say about Sungenis is that he's a grifter. Imagine preaching Geocentrism to a bunch of Protestants like it's more important than the actual Catholic faith. Listen to him long enough and he'll leave you ready to be the next Harold Camping."  

    I responded by stating this: "Even if you disagree with him on some things, it is truly amazing that you would say that about this individual.  I wonder what you have accomplished in your life.


    https://www.robertsungenis.org/p/about.html

    *****************************************************************************************************
    I wasn't trying to compare Sungenis with you, let alone St. Therese of Lisieux.  I made a simple and direct response to a very disparaging and judgmental comment from Croixalist.

    You say it doesn't help Sungenis' case that "he's an enemy of Traditional Catholicism."  That's certainly a rather bold statement to make. By that, do you mean "Robert Sungenis is an enemy of God."  St. John of the Cross reminds us that when we go before the judgment seat of God we will be judged on the degree of charity we have.  I am not excusing myself, when I say it is a sad reality to see the degree of uncharitableness that is often manifested on CathInfo as a good number of its members so glibly slander fellow Christians.



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    Offline Always

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    Re: Biblical Flat Earth
    « Reply #102 on: August 17, 2023, 11:03:34 PM »
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    • Quote from: gladius_veritatis on August 17, 2023, 09:56:23 PM
    Bobby Sun's water boy doesn't care about the truth 

    I am not anyone's water boy.  That is a ridiculous assertion.

    I do not know if you care about the truth, but your assertion that I do not care about the truth is absolutely false.  I very much care about the truth.  The fact that I may choose not to respond to certain questions or assertions does in no way mean that I do not care about the truth.  Again, your assertion that I do not care about the truth is absolutely false.  It would be good if you retract it for your own sake.
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    Offline Croixalist

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    Re: Biblical Flat Earth
    « Reply #103 on: August 17, 2023, 11:29:35 PM »
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    • Quote from: Always on August 17, 2023, 09:25:52 PM
    Even if you disagree with him on some things, it is truly amazing that you would say that about this individual.  I wonder what you have accomplished in your life.


    https://www.robertsungenis.org/p/about.html


    Well for starters, I just got one of his fans to refer to his predictable "hey I just converted, so I guess I'll preach... buy now!" series of books, articles and TV appearances as if they actually meant anything for traditional Catholicism outside of making its adherents look silly by associating with him. I never got to appear on Mother Angelica's show, but this will have to do!

    The practical reason for going GC was clear: the Protty-gone-Catholic story was becoming a tired trope by the late 90s and he stopped getting imprimaturs on his garbage books along with saying too many not so positive things about the sons of Hagar so he gave himself a charismatic renewal and became the schizophrenetic Geocentric hero/Flat Earth villain/h0Ɩ0cαųst-believer we never knew we needed until that triumph of con-artistry in 2014. He dug deep to harness all the Camping-level absurdity he could muster to sell those pieces of infotainment to the true believers!
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    Offline Always

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    Re: Biblical Flat Earth
    « Reply #104 on: August 18, 2023, 02:41:00 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on August 17, 2023, 10:06:16 PM
      Some humble illiterate nun who lived a holy life accomplished more with her life than all scholars combined.  St. Therese of Lisieux

    Lad you are a literate -- you can read and write -- individual.  You are also quite learned; yet, you refer to St. Therese of Lisieux as an "illiterate nun!"  Not sure why you would say such a thing.  The great saint could read and write perfectly well way before she even entered Carmel.
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