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Author Topic: Biblical Flat Earth  (Read 19248 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Biblical Flat Earth
« Reply #75 on: August 15, 2023, 06:01:13 AM »
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  • If you actually read what I wrote, I answered your question about what God denies when I explained my theological objections to Flat Earth.

    If the earth is Flat, then certainly God denies globe earth.  What you really mean is whether God has communicated to us that the earth is Flat.  And I've already explained that it's debatable whether Sacred Scripture clearly indicates a Flat Earth.  There are things that hint at it.  At the same time, God has not indicated a globe earth either.  So this question is a wash and becomes more of a scientific one.  Note, I do not ask whether God has "revealed" to us a Flat Earth ... since the term revelation does not pertain to scientific matters, since those can be known by reason alone and do not require revelation.

    But what God has told us about cosmology in Sacred Scripture does in fact "deny" NASA's ball floating in space model of the earth.  In particular, the cosmology describe a firmament that is solid enough to keep actual H2O water off the earth.  Sacred Scripture cannot err, even in historical or scientific matters.

    Now that your question is answered, do you deny the existence of the firmament as described by Sacred Scripture?  I have repeatedly said that I would accept (theologically, though not scientifically) a "globe" model that does not contradict Sacred Scripture's description of the firmament.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Biblical Flat Earth
    « Reply #76 on: August 15, 2023, 06:09:42 AM »
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  • Now, it might be possible to say that the firmament is a metaphor for the atmosphere and the waters for space ... except that doesn't fly because ...

    1) Sacred Scripture clearly describes the firmament as separating waters above from those below, a firmament that when "opened" allowed waters down that contributed to the Flood.  So it's clear that the firmament is something that's solid enough to keep actual, literal, NON-metaphorical waters off the earth.

    2) Church Fathers unanimously read the Sacred Scriptures as describing precisely this kind of solid/physical firmament.

    Basically, the criteria that the theologians applied when condemning Heliocentrism as heretical apply here as well.  Based on those same criteria, the denial of a physical firmament that is solid enough to keep waters off the earth would be heretical.

    I'd like to see cassini weigh in on the matter as well, since he has been the most ardent proponent and defender of the Holy Office declaration of Heliocentrism as heretical.  Applying the same criteria, the NASA ball floating in space theory is also heretical.  cassini (et al.), where's the firmament in your model?


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Biblical Flat Earth
    « Reply #77 on: August 15, 2023, 09:40:36 AM »
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  • Quote
    Does God deny that the earth is a globe?
    :confused:  Tradman already said that "Scripture denies it", so since Scripture is from God, then, yes, God denies it. 

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Biblical Flat Earth
    « Reply #78 on: August 15, 2023, 10:26:04 AM »
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  • :confused:  Tradman already said that "Scripture denies it", so since Scripture is from God, then, yes, God denies it.

    Right.  Tradman holds that Scripture teaches Flat Earth.  I don't agree that it unequivocally teaches it (there's some disagreement and no unanimous Patristic consensus) ... but it doesn't teach globe/ball earth either.  So his answer would be that God denies it.  As I said, if the earth is Flat, then God denies the globe.  Question is whether God has indicated in His revelation that the earth is Flat.  I think FE is more consistent with Sacred Scripture, but I don't think it's unequivocal.

    My issue is with the Firmament.  If someone proposed a globe/ball theory that explained the Scriptural firmament, I wouldn't be theologically opposed to it, just scientifically and perhaps philosphically.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Biblical Flat Earth
    « Reply #79 on: August 15, 2023, 10:26:56 AM »
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  • But now that I've answered the question, they can answer the ones that gladius and I put to them:

    Where in their model (globe/ball) is the firmament that Sacred Scripture describes very clearly?


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Biblical Flat Earth
    « Reply #80 on: August 15, 2023, 12:35:46 PM »
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  • Where in [your] model (globe/ball) is the firmament that Sacred Scripture describes very clearly?


    Offline cassini

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    Re: Biblical Flat Earth
    « Reply #81 on: August 15, 2023, 03:13:51 PM »
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  • Now, it might be possible to say that the firmament is a metaphor for the atmosphere and the waters for space ... except that doesn't fly because ...

    1) Sacred Scripture clearly describes the firmament as separating waters above from those below, a firmament that when "opened" allowed waters down that contributed to the Flood.  So it's clear that the firmament is something that's solid enough to keep actual, literal, NON-metaphorical waters off the earth.

    2) Church Fathers unanimously read the Sacred Scriptures as describing precisely this kind of solid/physical firmament.

    Basically, the criteria that the theologians applied when condemning Heliocentrism as heretical apply here as well.  Based on those same criteria, the denial of a physical firmament that is solid enough to keep waters off the earth would be heretical.

    I'd like to see cassini weigh in on the matter as well, since he has been the most ardent proponent and defender of the Holy Office declaration of Heliocentrism as heretical.  Applying the same criteria, the NASA ball floating in space theory is also heretical.  cassini (et al.), where's the firmament in your model? 

    Go google firmament meaning. There are some very interesting answers.

    What does firmament mean biblically?

    In biblical cosmology the “firmament” is a vast solid dome, created by God on the second day of creation, which divides the primal “waters” into upper and lower portions.

    What is the literal meaning of firmament?

    the vault or arch of the sky : heavens. Stars twinkled in the firmament.

    Both FE and GE are arched, yes, so no conflict there.

    What is the water beyond the firmament?

    The water above it is not liquid water, but “aerial water.” The reason it is up above this “heaven” is that it acts as a kind of global cooling system, to keep the heat of the sun in check until it finally runs out and the universe is destroyed by fire, in accord with biblical prophecy.

    What is the difference between sky and firmament?

    The firmament is the curve of the sky, especially if you imagine it as a solid surface. You can describe the sky at night as a firmament shining with stars (if you're feeling poetic).

    Lots more. Now let us record the creation day one and two.

    ‘Day 1: In the beginning God created Heaven, and Earth. And the earth was void and empty, and darkness was upon the face of the deep; and the spirit of God moved over the waters. And God said: Be light made. And light was made. And God saw the light that it was good; and he divided the light from the darkness. And he called the light Day and the darkness Night; and there was evening and morning one day.   


    Light is electromagnetism. Domenico Cassini discovered orbits are Cassinian ovals. Cassinian ovals are caused in positive electromagnetism. A geocentric universe has sun, planets and stars moving in electromagnetic orbits. 

    Day 2; And God said: Let there be a firmament made amidst the waters: and let it divide the waters from the waters. And God made a firmament, and divided the waters that were under the firmament, from those that were above the firmament, and it was so. And God called the firmament Heaven; and the evening and morning were the second day. God also said: Let the waters that are under the heaven be gathered together into one place: and let the dry land appear. And it was so done. And God called the dry land, Earth; and the gathering together of the waters, he called Seas. And God saw that it was good.

    For me, Day 2 is all about the Earth, not the universe. The firmament is the atmosphere around the Earth that divides the waters under the firmament (seas) from the waters above the firmament.(clouds), the only two places we humans can witness waters. It is different to the rest of the space in the universe so the Lord shows how it was created different. Noah's flood also shows how the waters were divided. We humans also look up from the Earth to heaven, that is from the atmosphere to beyond. 


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Biblical Flat Earth
    « Reply #82 on: August 15, 2023, 03:30:13 PM »
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  • Go google firmament meaning. There are some very interesting answers.

    What does firmament mean biblically?

    In biblical cosmology the “firmament” is a vast solid dome, created by God on the second day of creation, which divides the primal “waters” into upper and lower portions.

    What is the literal meaning of firmament?

    the vault or arch of the sky : heavens. Stars twinkled in the firmament.

    Both FE and GE are arched, yes, so no conflict there.

    What is the water beyond the firmament?

    The water above it is not liquid water, but “aerial water.” The reason it is up above this “heaven” is that it acts as a kind of global cooling system, to keep the heat of the sun in check until it finally runs out and the universe is destroyed by fire, in accord with biblical prophecy.

    What is the difference between sky and firmament?

    The firmament is the curve of the sky, especially if you imagine it as a solid surface. You can describe the sky at night as a firmament shining with stars (if you're feeling poetic).

    Lots more. Now let us record the creation day one and two.

    ‘Day 1: In the beginning God created Heaven, and Earth. And the earth was void and empty, and darkness was upon the face of the deep; and the spirit of God moved over the waters. And God said: Be light made. And light was made. And God saw the light that it was good; and he divided the light from the darkness. And he called the light Day and the darkness Night; and there was evening and morning one day.   


    Light is electromagnetism. Domenico Cassini discovered orbits are Cassinian ovals. Cassinian ovals are caused in positive electromagnetism. A geocentric universe has sun, planets and stars moving in electromagnetic orbits.

    Day 2; And God said: Let there be a firmament made amidst the waters: and let it divide the waters from the waters. And God made a firmament, and divided the waters that were under the firmament, from those that were above the firmament, and it was so. And God called the firmament Heaven; and the evening and morning were the second day. God also said: Let the waters that are under the heaven be gathered together into one place: and let the dry land appear. And it was so done. And God called the dry land, Earth; and the gathering together of the waters, he called Seas. And God saw that it was good.

    For me, Day 2 is all about the Earth, not the universe. The firmament is the atmosphere around the Earth that divides the waters under the firmament (seas) from the waters above the firmament.(clouds), the only two places we humans can witness waters. It is different to the rest of the space in the universe so the Lord shows how it was created different. Noah's flood also shows how the waters were divided. We humans also look up from the Earth to heaven, that is from the atmosphere to beyond.


    :facepalm:

    I have to be extremely blunt.  What a load of horse manure.  Arched "aerial water".  So the "arch" opened up and allowed this "aerial water" to flood the earth during the Great Deluge.  This is not more than a half step away from Father Paul Robinson's local flood.  And your own Googled definition said "solid".  Where does the "solid" part come in simply because the globe has some putative "arched" shape?  Not that we care about Google.  We care about the fact that the Church Fathers all believed that it was solid, that it kept literal waters off the earth, and that when it was "opened" (Sacred Scripture said that windows of the firmament were opened), it allowed water to inundate the earth during the Great Deluge.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Biblical Flat Earth
    « Reply #83 on: August 15, 2023, 03:38:03 PM »
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  • First thing that comes up when I Google "firmament solid" --

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Biblical Flat Earth
    « Reply #84 on: August 15, 2023, 03:39:53 PM »
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  • Where's the solidity of "firm"-ness, if you will, of the firmament with the curved "aerial water" explanation?  How was this firmament "opened" to allow this "aerial water" to flood the earth?  Was this a metaphor for massive condensation?

    Offline Tradman

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    Re: Biblical Flat Earth
    « Reply #85 on: August 15, 2023, 04:56:00 PM »
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  • Where's the solidity of "firm"-ness, if you will, of the firmament with the curved "aerial water" explanation?  How was this firmament "opened" to allow this "aerial water" to flood the earth?  Was this a metaphor for massive condensation?
    This.

    The right questions, with clear answers.  Condensation, lol. 

    There is more to the division of water. While it points to things like baptism, dividing the waters always means water remains on each side.  Not water on one side and vapor on the other.  Like the crossing of the red sea, water was divided and those who didn't believe in God were lost.  Water was divided in the beginning as well.  Water above the firmament and water below on earth.  Sheep and goats.    


    Bible Search
    Search results for: divided water
    29 verses with all terms, 1172 verses with some. Showing up to 25.
    2 Kings 2:14 Then he took the cloak of Elijah that had fallen from him and struck the waters. ...
    ... asked. When he struck the water, it divided to the right and to the left, ... cloak that had fallen from Elijah and struck the water with it. "Where now is the ...
    https://biblehub.com/2_kings/2-14.htm
    2 Kings 2:8 And Elijah took his cloak, rolled it up, and struck the waters, which parted to the ...
    ... and struck the water with it. The water divided to the right and to the left, ... his cloak, rolled it up and struck the water with it. The water divided to the ...
    https://biblehub.com/2_kings/2-8.htm
    Nehemiah 9:11 You divided the sea before them, and they crossed through it on dry ground. You ...
    ... You divided the sea before them, so that they passed through it on dry ground, ... into the depths, like a stone into mighty waters. You divided the sea for your people ...
    https://biblehub.com/nehemiah/9-11.htm
    Exodus 14:21 Then Moses stretched out his hand over the sea, and all that night the LORD drove ...
    ... turned it into dry land. The waters were divided, Then Moses raised his hand over the ... wind and turned it into dry land. The waters were divided, Then Moses raised his hand ...
    https://biblehub.com/exodus/14-21.htm
    Isaiah 63:12 who sent His glorious arm to lead them by the right hand of Moses, who divided the ...
    ... to be at Moses' right hand, who divided the waters before them, to gain for ... everlasting renown, Where is the one whose power was displayed when Moses lifted up his hand — ...
    https://biblehub.com/isaiah/18-2.htm
    Psalm 78:13 He split the sea and brought them through; He set the waters upright like a ...
    ... He divided the sea and led them through; he made the water stand up like a ... . For he divided the sea and led them through, making the water stand up like walls ...
    https://biblehub.com/psalms/78-13.htm
    Psalm 74:13 You divided the sea by Your strength; You smashed the heads of the dragons of the ...
    ... smashed the heads of the sea monsters. You divided the sea by your might; you broke ... you broke the heads of the monster in the waters. You split the sea by your strength ...
    https://biblehub.com/psalms/74-13.htm
    Genesis 2:10 Now a river flowed out of Eden to water the garden, and from there it branched into ...
    ... land of Eden, watering the garden and then dividing into four branches. A river flowed out ... A river watering the garden flowed from Eden; from there it was separated into four headwaters ...
    https://biblehub.com/genesis/2-10.htm
    Exodus 14:16 And as for you, lift up your staff and stretch out your hand over the sea and divide ...
    ... and stretch out your hand over the sea to divide the water so that the Israelites can go ... the sea on dry ground. Pick up your staff and raise your hand over the sea. ...
    https://biblehub.com/exodus/14-16.htm
    Genesis 1:6 And God said, "Let there be an expanse between the waters, to separate the waters ...
    ... the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters." And ... , "Let there be a vault between the waters to separate water from water." Then ...
    https://biblehub.com/genesis/1-6.htm
    Genesis 1:7 So God made the expanse and separated the waters beneath it from the waters above. ...
    ... so. Thus God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from ... So God made the vault and separated the water under the vault from the water above it ...
    https://biblehub.com/genesis/1-7.htm
    Judges 7:5 So Gideon brought the people down to the water, and the LORD said to him, "Separate ...
    ... the water, the LORD told him, "Divide the men into two groups. In one ... So Gideon took the men down to the water. There the LORD told him, " ...

    https://biblehub.com/judges/5-11.htm
    Job 38:25 Who cuts a channel for the flood or clears a path for the thunderbolt,
    ... a way for the thunderbolt, "Who has divided a channel for the overflowing water, Or ... path for the thunderbolt, Who hath divided a watercourse for the overflowing of waters, or a ...
    https://biblehub.com/job/38-25.htm
    Job 28:25 When God fixed the weight of the wind and measured out the waters,
    ... and distributed the water by measure, When God divided out the wind and the water, When ... the force of the wind and measured out the waters, He decided how hard the winds should ...
    https://biblehub.com/job/28-25.htm
    Job 26:10 He has inscribed a horizon on the face of the waters at the boundary between light ...
    ... a boundary line between light and darkness. He divided light from darkness by a circle drawn on ... marks out the horizon on the face of the waters for a boundary between light and darkness. ...
    https://biblehub.com/job/26-10.htm
    Proverbs 5:16 Why should your springs flow in the streets, your streams of water in the public ...
    ... fountains be conveyed abroad, and in the streets divide thy waters. Thy fountains shall be poured ... springs overflow in the streets, your streams of water in the public squares? Why spill the ...



    Offline Tradman

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    Re: Biblical Flat Earth
    « Reply #86 on: August 15, 2023, 05:02:30 PM »
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  • :confused:  Tradman already said that "Scripture denies it", so since Scripture is from God, then, yes, God denies it.

    Thanks Pax. Scripture denies globe earth, having made it clear in multiple related texts, not to mention exegesis of the Fathers.  That God denies it can be gleaned from the text, as well as from the Fathers, even if it isn't defined per se.  All proof is in favor of the flat earth and zero Scripture describes a terrestrial globe.  Unless of course, you cite pagan modern science and NASA, enemies of both God and Scripture.  

    Offline Always

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    Re: Biblical Flat Earth
    « Reply #87 on: August 15, 2023, 05:46:02 PM »
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  • If you actually read what I wrote, I answered your question about what God denies when I explained my theological objections to Flat Earth.

    If the earth is Flat, then certainly God denies globe earth.  What you really mean is whether God has communicated to us that the earth is Flat.  And I've already explained that it's debatable whether Sacred Scripture clearly indicates a Flat Earth.

    Thanks, but if you actually read what I wrote you would or at least should realize I addressed the question to Tradman, not to you.  In any event, thanks for stepping up to the plate and answering the question even if you had to place a gigantic qualifier in your answer (as was properly called for) by placing the "biggest word in the English language" as the first word of your sentence: "If the earth is Flat, then certainly God denies globe earth."

    As for the rest of your quote above I don't need your gratuitous "mind reading" to tell me what I "really mean."  Finally, you may wish to direct your last sentence above to your fellow FE Tradman who would seem to disagree on that issue.

    Offline cassini

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    Re: Biblical Flat Earth
    « Reply #88 on: August 16, 2023, 05:16:04 AM »
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  • :facepalm:

    I have to be extremely blunt.  What a load of horse manure.  Arched "aerial water".  So the "arch" opened up and allowed this "aerial water" to flood the earth during the Great Deluge.  This is not more than a half step away from Father Paul Robinson's local flood.  And your own Googled definition said "solid".  Where does the "solid" part come in simply because the globe has some putative "arched" shape?  Not that we care about Google.  We care about the fact that the Church Fathers all believed that it was solid, that it kept literal waters off the earth, and that when it was "opened" (Sacred Scripture said that windows of the firmament were opened), it allowed water to inundate the earth during the Great Deluge.

    I just put up Google's record of the firmament based on what others conceive it to be for readers interest. Perhaps horse manure, but i posted it to show what is already out there.

    Now will you show me evidence that all the Fathers believed in a flat Earth. St Thomas Aquinas, in the 13th century,  wrote:
    “[T]he astronomer and the physicist both may prove the same conclusion—that the earth, for instance, is round: the astronomer by means of mathematics (i.e., abstracting from matter), but the physicist by means of matter itself.”
    – Summa Theologica, Question 1, First Article

    Hardly a recognition that all the Fathers believed in a flat Earth. If all the Fathers read the Bible revealing the Earth is flat, then that would have been a dogma and Bruno and Galileo would have had that down on their list of heresies. Not a mention of that heresy throughout the history of the Church.

    But then I gave my opinion based on Genesis one and two. I gave as an example of the firmament the separating of the waters after Noah's Flood not as causing the firmament as I think you infer. On a global Earth the clouds cover the Earth in an arch, so what is so absurd with that. 
    As there is not one word of correction of my reading as to what the firmament means in Genesis 1 and 2, I will not change my opinion or belief.

    Offline Always

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    Re: Biblical Flat Earth
    « Reply #89 on: August 17, 2023, 11:54:48 AM »
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  • The FE/GE CATHINFO Battle of the Titans continues on with the FE Powerhouse Team of Ladislaus, Matthew, & Tradman along with their contributing supporters going up against the GE Giants SeanJohnson, Cassini & Robert Sungenis (   https://www.robertsungenis.org/2020/07/flat-earth-flat-wrong.html) along with their contributing supporters.  The CI peanut gallery anxiously awaits the next move by any one of the aforementioned honorable parties.