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Author Topic: Biblical Flat Earth  (Read 19251 times)

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Offline Tradman

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Re: Biblical Flat Earth
« Reply #15 on: August 07, 2023, 10:06:10 AM »
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  • I haven't studied the notion of Jerusalem being the center of the world, but perhaps some of it might be pious belief.  Not sure what to do with that when the religious center of the world shifted to Rome.  Perhaps there's some notion related to the fact that Our Lord ascended into Heaven and that therefore the entry through the firmament to the throne of God would have to be above there somewhere.  There may of course be several entry points.  It's hard to say, really.  This is where real science and exploration (that isn't driven by an agenda) would come in.

    This is some of the information I've collected regarding Jerusalem as the center of the world.  It appears collectively persuasive but would certainly turn the common view upside down.  I agree it would be nice to get some hard data.  The first account is from Andrew Dickson White's History of the Warfare of Science and Theology, and the next section is Anne Catherine Emmerich and the third is St. Hildegard maps.   
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    There then stood in Germany, in those first years of the eight century, one of the greatest and noblest of men, --St. Boniface.  His learning was of the best then known. In labours he was a worthy successor of the apostles; is genius for Christian work made him unwillingly primate of Germany; his devotion to duty led him willingly to martyrdom.  There sat too, at that time, on the papal throne a great Christian statesman--Pope Zachary.  Boniface immediately declared against the revival of such a heresy as the doctrine of the antipodes; he stigmatized it as an assertion that there are men beyond the reach of the appointed means of salvation; he attacked Virgil, and called on Pope Zachary for aid.  Pg 105

    The Pope, as the infallible teacher of Christendom, made a strong response. He cited passages from the book of Job and the widsom of Solomon against the doctrine of the antipodes; he declared it "perverse, iniquitous, and against Virgil's own soul," and indicated a purpose of driving him from his bishopric.  106

    Warfare between science and theology White

    The great authority of Augustine, and the cogency of his scriptural argument, held the Church firmly against the doctrine of the antipodes; all schools of interpretation were now agreed--the followers of the allegorical tendencies of Alexandria, the strictly literals exegetes of Syria, the more eclectic theologians of the West. For over a thousand years it was held in the Church, "always, everywhere, and by all," that there could not be human beings on the opposite sides of the earth, even if the earth had opposite sides; and, when attacked by gainsayers the great mass of true believers, from the fourth century to the fifteenth, simply used that opiate which had so soothing an effect on John Henry Newman in the nineteenth century--securus judicat orbis terrarum.  pg 104


    The book of Ezekiel speaks of Jerusalem as in the middle of the earth, and all other parts of the world as set around the holy city.  Throughout the "ages of faith" this was very generally accepted as the direct revelation from the Almighty regarding the earth's form.  St. Jerome, the greatest authority of the early Church upon the Bible, declared, on the strength of this utterance of the prophet, that Jerusalem could be nowhere but at the earth's center; in the ninth century Archbishop Rabanus Maurus reiterated the same argument; in the eleventh century Hugh of St. Victor gave to the doctrine another scriptural demonstration; and Pope Urban, in his great sermon at Clermont urging the Franks to the crusade, declared, "Jerusalem is the middle point of the earth"; in the thirteenth century and ecclesiastical writer much in vogue, the monk Caesarious of Heisterbach declared, "As the heart in the midst of the body, so is Jerusalem situated in the midst of our in habited earth,--so it was that Christ was crucified at the center of the earth."  Dante accepted this view of Jerusalem as a certainty, wedding it to immortal verse: and in the pious book of ascribed to Sir John Mandeville, so widely read in the Middle Ages, it is declared that Jerusalem is at the center of the world, and that a spear standing erect at the Holy Sepulchre casts no shadow at the equinox.

    Ezekiel's statement thus became the standard of orthodoxy to early map-makers. The map of the world at Hereford Cathedral, the maps of Andrea Bianco, Marino Sanuto, and a multitude of others fixed this view in men's minds, and doubtless discouraged during many generations any scientific statements tending to unbalance this geographical centre revealed in Scripture.(30)
         (30) For beliefs of various nations of antiquity that the earth's center
    was in their most sacred place, see citations from Maspero, Charton,
    Sayce, and others in Lethaby, Architecture, Mysticism, and Myth, chap.
    iv. As to the Greeks, we have typical statements in the Eumenides of
    Aeschylus, where the stone in the altar at Delphi is repeatedly called
    "the earth's navel"—which is precisely the expression used regarding
    Jerusalem in the Septuagint translation of Ezekiel (see below). The
    proof texts on which the mediaeval geographers mainly relied as to the
    form of the earth were Ezekiel v, 5, and xxxviii, 12. The progress
    of geographical knowledge evidently caused them to be softened down
    somewhat in our King James's version; but the first of them reads, in
    the Vulgate, "Ista est Hierusalem, in medio gentium posui eam et in
    circuitu ejus terrae"; and the second reads, in the Vulgate, "in medio
    terrae," and in the Septuagint, [Greek]. That the literal centre of the
    earth was understood, see proof in St. Jerome, Commentat. in Ezekiel,
    lib. ii; and for general proof, see Leopardi, Saggio sopra gli errori
    popolari degli antichi, pp. 207, 208. For Rabanus Maurus, see his De
    Universo, lib. xii, cap. 4, in Migne, tome cxi, p. 339. For Hugh of
    St. Victor, se his De Situ Terrarum, cap. ii. For Dante's belief, see
    Inferno, canto xxxiv, 112-115:


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    Anne Catherine Emmerich wrote:
    ... I learned also that the prophet having related what happened to him, the spot received the name of Calvary. Finally, I saw that the Cross of Jesus was placed vertically over the skull of Adam. 
    I was informed that this spot was the exact center of the earth; and at the same time I was shown the numbers and measures proper to every country, but I have forgotten them, individually as well as in general. Yet I have seen this center from above, and as it were from a bird's-eye view. In that way a person sees far more clearly than on a map all the different countries, mountains, deserts, seas, rivers, towns, and even the smallest places, whether distant or near at hand.


     Hildegard's map with Jerusalem at the center. 



    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Biblical Flat Earth
    « Reply #16 on: August 07, 2023, 11:47:54 AM »
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  • To state the obvious, there can be no "center of the earth" on a ball...


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Biblical Flat Earth
    « Reply #17 on: August 07, 2023, 01:31:28 PM »
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  • One interesting thought here is that it does seem likely that the continents were in fact once more connected than they are now.  You can see, for instance, most obviously, how South America fits with Africa like some puzzle.  We know that the lands did not separate "millions of years ago", as modern science claims, but I wonder if this may have occurred as a consequence of the Flood.  Or did God perhaps separate the lands at the time of the Tower of Babel, to scatter the different peoples?  Interesting line of inquiry.  This looks similar to that map in the posting from Tradman about St. Hildegard.




    Offline Mark 79

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    Re: Biblical Flat Earth
    « Reply #18 on: August 07, 2023, 09:51:00 PM »
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  • I stumbled upon this on GAB.


    Offline Always

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    Offline gladius_veritatis

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    Re: Biblical Flat Earth
    « Reply #20 on: August 07, 2023, 10:41:10 PM »
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  •  We know that the lands did not separate "millions of years ago", as modern science claims, but I wonder if this may have occurred as a consequence of the Flood.  Or did God perhaps separate the lands at the time of the Tower of Babel, to scatter the different peoples? 

    More likely that things changed when the fountains of the deep erupted at the Flood.
    "Fear God, and keep His commandments: for this is all man."

    Offline gladius_veritatis

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    Re: Biblical Flat Earth
    « Reply #21 on: August 07, 2023, 10:45:28 PM »
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  • I stumbled upon this on GAB.


     
    Yup.  Impossible to circuмnavigate "Antarctica" -- because it isn't a continent, but an ice wall surrounding the terra cognita on this flat world.
    "Fear God, and keep His commandments: for this is all man."

    Offline Mark 79

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    Re: Biblical Flat Earth
    « Reply #22 on: August 07, 2023, 11:05:29 PM »
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  • Well… I have made a conscious effort to eliminate "global" from my vocabulary.


    Offline Always

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    Re: Biblical Flat Earth
    « Reply #23 on: August 08, 2023, 03:53:56 AM »
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  • Well… I have made a conscious effort to eliminate "global" from my vocabulary.

    Yup, me too.

    Offline LoneWolf1988

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    Re: Biblical Flat Earth
    « Reply #24 on: August 08, 2023, 05:25:20 AM »
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  • Maybe we should call earth "lacrimarum valle"
    because it looks like that in flat earth.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Biblical Flat Earth
    « Reply #25 on: August 08, 2023, 06:23:28 AM »
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  • More likely that things changed when the fountains of the deep erupted at the Flood.

    Yes, makes sense.  When the fountains of the deep erupted, those could have pushed the continents apart.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Biblical Flat Earth
    « Reply #26 on: August 08, 2023, 06:26:34 AM »
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  • Yup.  Impossible to circuмnavigate "Antarctica" -- because it isn't a continent, but an ice wall surrounding the terra cognita on this flat world.

    For less than a few hours of NASA's budget, they could completely falsify FE theory ... by circuмaviating Antarctica.  They could invite FEs (and others) on board and also station some as observers around the "perimeter" of Antarctica.  There are planes that can handle its entire 12,000 mile circuмference without needing to refuel and could safely land back in South America.  Observers could note Antarctica on the same side of the plane for the entire journey, and take other measurements.

    Offline MiracleOfTheSun

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    Re: Biblical Flat Earth
    « Reply #27 on: August 08, 2023, 06:30:11 PM »
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  • Any mariners out there who could just sail east from NY to the next longitude line, do the equivalent in the southern hemisphere (Buenos Aires area), and track the time/distance?


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Biblical Flat Earth
    « Reply #28 on: August 08, 2023, 06:56:22 PM »
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  • Any mariners out there who could just sail east from NY to the next longitude line, do the equivalent in the southern hemisphere (Buenos Aires area), and track the time/distance?



    Herve Riboni participated in races to sail around the world.





    Offline Always

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    Re: Biblical Flat Earth
    « Reply #29 on: August 08, 2023, 07:59:16 PM »
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  • https://rickpotvinflatearth.blogspot.com/2015/09/captain-james-cook-is-not-useful.html

    Rick Potvin's Virtual Circuмnavigation of Antarctica to Decide if Earth is Global or Flat

    Wednesday, September 23, 2015
    Captain James Cook is not a useful reference for flat earth Antarctica after all.

    Eric Dubay points to Captain Cook as a viable reference for flat earth Antarctica because he travelled 60,000 miles around Antarctica consistent with flat earth. But, aside from the fact that I don't like Dubay because he a) banned me from his IFERS forum after my first post without explanation and b) he has a robotic monotone voice impossible to listen to -- aside from those points-- he doesn't provide a map of what HE thinks Cook's circuмnavigation journey consisted of. As anyone can see from the mixed up mess of a route map below, Cook's voyages are not conclusive on the face of it. It turns out Cooks voyages are a rabbit hole if you dare drill down on them like I did before giving up because I have a job and do this crap in my spare time-- my dwindling spare time since my property taxes are inexplicably doubling along with the price of eggs. If I could encourage God to damn anything, I'd have him damn the increasing price of eggs and property tax. But I digress don't I. As usual. On beer. (The beer is talking).