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Author Topic: Bible Depicts a Flat and Stationary Earth  (Read 6944 times)

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Offline Meg

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Re: Bible Depicts a Flat and Stationary Earth
« Reply #60 on: March 07, 2018, 02:26:38 PM »
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  • .
    Dear Meg, can you understand this question, or not?
    Question:
    Did the Church Fathers (who lived over 1,000 years ago) have access to and know how to use a theodolite?
    .
    EXAMPLES OF THEODOLITE
    .
    .

    You said that we flat earthers refuse to see what is in front of our very eyes. Are you now correcting that statement?
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29


    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: Bible Depicts a Flat and Stationary Earth
    « Reply #61 on: March 07, 2018, 03:00:35 PM »
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  • You said that we flat earthers refuse to see what is in front of our very eyes. Are you now correcting that statement?
    .
    Can you identify any flat-earther who knows how to use a theodolite? Like in a theodolite when it's right in front of your eyes?
    .
    I have asked you before, and maybe I'll stop asking, but then I won't be replying any more to your questions.
    .
    Do you have any experience working with a theodolite?
    .
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    Offline WholeFoodsTrad

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    Re: Bible Depicts a Flat and Stationary Earth
    « Reply #62 on: March 08, 2018, 04:49:56 AM »
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  • .
    Dear Meg, can you understand this question, or not?
    Question:
    Did the Church Fathers (who lived over 1,000 years ago) have access to and know how to use a theodolite?
    .
    EXAMPLES OF THEODOLITE
    .
    .
    "Plane and geodetic surveying

    Based on the considerations and true shape of the earth, surveying is broadly classified into two types.

    Plane surveying assumes the earth is flat. Curvature and spheroidal shape of the earth is neglected. In this type of surveying all triangles formed by joining survey lines are considered as plane triangles. It is employed for small survey works where errors due to the earth's shape are too small to matter.[14]

    In geodetic surveying the curvature of the earth is taken into account while calculating reduced levels, angles, bearings and distances. This type of surveying is usually employed for large survey works. Survey works up to 100 square miles (260 square kilometers ) are treated as plane and beyond that are treated as geodetic.[15] In geodetic surveying necessary corrections are applied to reduced levels, bearings and other observations.[16]"

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surveying

    According to this website:  

    https://dizzib.github.io/earth/curve-calc/?d0=100&h0=5&unit=imperial

    The Earth's curvature experienced over a distance of one hundred miles should be over a mile.  In other words, the drop should be over one mile.  Yet, surveyors aren't supposed to take this into account, when dealing with areas less than 100 miles square.  That seems very odd.  

    "Even a man who is pure in heart and says his prayers by night
    may become a wolf when the wolfbane blooms and the autumn moon is bright."

    Offline WholeFoodsTrad

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    Re: Bible Depicts a Flat and Stationary Earth
    « Reply #63 on: March 08, 2018, 04:50:29 AM »
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  • .
    Can you identify any flat-earther who knows how to use a theodolite? Like in a theodolite when it's right in front of your eyes?
    .
    I have asked you before, and maybe I'll stop asking, but then I won't be replying any more to your questions.
    .
    Do you have any experience working with a theodolite?
    .
    Yeah, lots of them use that tool to demonstrate a Flat Earth.  
    "Even a man who is pure in heart and says his prayers by night
    may become a wolf when the wolfbane blooms and the autumn moon is bright."

    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: Bible Depicts a Flat and Stationary Earth
    « Reply #64 on: March 08, 2018, 11:10:28 AM »
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  • Yeah, lots of them use that tool to demonstrate a Flat Earth.  
    .
    Lots of them there guys use that there tool, eh? HAHAHA
    You've got it backwards, as usual. 
    .
    Unlike you, I am speaking from personal experience. 
    Without a sensitive telescopic level device you can't know whether your line of sight is inclined or level.
    Even laser distance meters need to have a vertical declination function.
    But never mind, I know, you have no experience in this but that doesn't stop you from pretending otherwise.
    .
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    Offline WholeFoodsTrad

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    Re: Bible Depicts a Flat and Stationary Earth
    « Reply #65 on: March 09, 2018, 05:57:13 PM »
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  • .
    Lots of them there guys use that there tool, eh? HAHAHA
    You've got it backwards, as usual.
    .
    Unlike you, I am speaking from personal experience.
    Without a sensitive telescopic level device you can't know whether your line of sight is inclined or level.
    Even laser distance meters need to have a vertical declination function.
    But never mind, I know, you have no experience in this but that doesn't stop you from pretending otherwise.
    .
    Wow, good question!   :laugh1:
    "Even a man who is pure in heart and says his prayers by night
    may become a wolf when the wolfbane blooms and the autumn moon is bright."

    Offline WholeFoodsTrad

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    Re: Bible Depicts a Flat and Stationary Earth
    « Reply #66 on: March 09, 2018, 05:57:47 PM »
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  • I, of course, have an answer to that question  ;D
    "Even a man who is pure in heart and says his prayers by night
    may become a wolf when the wolfbane blooms and the autumn moon is bright."

    Offline WholeFoodsTrad

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    Re: Bible Depicts a Flat and Stationary Earth
    « Reply #67 on: March 09, 2018, 06:08:50 PM »
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  • Theodolites use lenses that complicate things a little bit, similarly to a fish eye lense.  Easiest way to understand it is to take a large magnifying glass (mine has a diameter of 4 inches), a piece of paper, pencil and a straight edge.  Draw a straight line through the center of the paper.  Hold the paper out at arms length with your left hand.  Hold your magnifying glass out with your right hand about a third of your arms length.  Observe the paper through the magnifying glass at the edge of the paper, with the lense of the magnifying glass 50% on the paper and 50% off the paper.  You should clearly see the effect of slightly raising and lowering the glass or the paper.  You can make the line in the lense go above the line on the paper or below it, but with proper adjustment, you can bring them together.  There is a similar effect with theodolites.  However, with proper adjustment, over a body of water, they show a flat surface, not a convex or concave surface.  

    Here is the primary source I researched for this post:  

    http://www.sacred-texts.com/earth/za/za45.htm

    Zetetic Astronomy, by 'Parallax' (pseud. Samuel Birley Rowbotham), [1881].  
    "Even a man who is pure in heart and says his prayers by night
    may become a wolf when the wolfbane blooms and the autumn moon is bright."


    Offline WholeFoodsTrad

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    Re: Bible Depicts a Flat and Stationary Earth
    « Reply #68 on: March 09, 2018, 06:12:18 PM »
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  • http://www.sacred-texts.com/earth/za/za45.htm

    Zetetic Astronomy, by 'Parallax' (pseud. Samuel Birley Rowbotham), [1881].  
    "Even a man who is pure in heart and says his prayers by night
    may become a wolf when the wolfbane blooms and the autumn moon is bright."

    Offline WholeFoodsTrad

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    Re: Bible Depicts a Flat and Stationary Earth
    « Reply #69 on: March 15, 2018, 11:53:42 PM »
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  • "Christians are uncomfortable with the many passages in the Old Testament that seem to support the flat earth model, clearly contradicting abundant scientific evidence that the earth is a round and spinning ball... So they rationalize and re-interpret these passages to defend their faith that their Bible is without error. Bob, in this essay, tries to show that they can't get away with this cheap trick, for the writers of the Bible really did believe the earth to be flat."

    https://www.lockhaven.edu/~dsimanek/febible.htm

    "Even a man who is pure in heart and says his prayers by night
    may become a wolf when the wolfbane blooms and the autumn moon is bright."

    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: Bible Depicts a Flat and Stationary Earth
    « Reply #70 on: May 28, 2018, 11:46:32 PM »
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  • "Christians are uncomfortable with the many passages in the Old Testament that seem to support the flat earth model, clearly contradicting abundant scientific evidence that the earth is a round and spinning ball... So they rationalize and re-interpret these passages to defend their faith that their Bible is without error. Bob, in this essay, tries to show that they can't get away with this cheap trick, for the writers of the Bible really did believe the earth to be flat."

    https://www.lockhaven.edu/~dsimanek/febible.htm
    .
    The Bible is without error, AND the Bible does not describe definitively the shape of the Earth, so it isn't wrong there.
    .
    Some passages may seem to support the "flat" earth but that is not what constitutes definitive description. 
    .
    In any case, it's not the place of the Bible to tell us what we can observe for ourselves, especially using technology.
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    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: Bible Depicts a Flat and Stationary Earth
    « Reply #71 on: May 28, 2018, 11:54:40 PM »
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  • Theodolites use lenses that complicate things a little bit, similarly to a fish eye lense. [sic] Easiest way to understand it is to take a large magnifying glass (mine has a diameter of 4 inches), a piece of paper, pencil and a straight edge.  Draw a straight line through the center of the paper.  Hold the paper out at arms length with your left hand.  Hold your magnifying glass out with your right hand about a third of your arms length.  Observe the paper through the magnifying glass at the edge of the paper, with the lense [sic] of the magnifying glass 50% on the paper and 50% off the paper.  You should clearly see the effect of slightly raising and lowering the glass or the paper.  You can make the line in the lense [sic] go above the line on the paper or below it, but with proper adjustment, you can bring them together.  There is a similar effect with theodolites.  However, with proper adjustment, over a body of water, they show a flat surface, not a convex or concave surface.  
    .
    You obviously have no experience whatsoever with theodolites and have no idea what you're talking about here.
    .
    A "fish eye lens" (wide angle lens) has absolutely NOTHING to do with a theodolite, which is a telescope, not a wide angle lens.
    Those are opposites.
    .
    An ignoramus pretending to be an expert is someone NOBODY pays attention to.
    .
    You can't even manage to spell "lens" correctly.
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    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: Bible Depicts a Flat and Stationary Earth
    « Reply #72 on: May 28, 2018, 11:58:54 PM »
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  • .
    Can you identify any flat-earther who knows how to use a theodolite? Like in a theodolite when it's right in front of your eyes?
    .
    I have asked you before, and maybe I'll stop asking, but then I won't be replying any more to your questions.
    .
    Do you have any experience working with a theodolite?
    .
    .
    Notice: 3 months later and nobody can identify any flat-earther who knows how to use a theodolite.
    Nobody who has experience using one.
    Maybe theodolites are the number two enemy of flat-earthism, number one being the parallel rays of the sun.
    .
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    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: Bible Depicts a Flat and Stationary Earth
    « Reply #73 on: May 30, 2018, 01:24:50 AM »
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  • The Earth's curvature experienced over a distance of one hundred miles should be over a mile.  In other words, the drop should be over one mile.  Yet, surveyors aren't supposed to take this into account, when dealing with areas less than 100 miles square.  That seems very odd.  
    .
    What makes you think you can compare a range of 100 miles to an area of 100 miles square?
    .
    But in any case, you're presuming that there is a mile drop every 100 miles. There is only one degree of drop in 67 miles.
    And that makes two degrees of drop in 134 miles, so a mile of drop in 100 miles is way off.
    .
    The area under consideration for a range of 100 miles equals the area of a circle with a 100 mile radius.
    .
    A = (pi)r2    --when pi is aprox. 3.14 and r is 100
    A = (3.14)(1002) = 3.14 (10,000) = 31,400 miles2
    .
    The area under consideration for a range of 100 miles is 31,400 square square miles.
    Secondly, 100 miles square is equal to (100 miles)2 = 10,000 square miles, a lot less than 31,400.
    .
    10,000 mi2 = (pi)(x)2
    x2 = 10,000 / (3.14)
    x = (3,185)0.5
    x = 56

    That 10,000 square miles covers a circular area of 100 miles square which has a radius of 56 miles.
    .
    The amount of deviation from level in 56 miles is less than 1 degree, since 360 degrees times 67 is the circuмference of the earth.
    Every 67 miles approximately, the level line drops one degree, all around the earth.
    So geodetic surveyors apply correction factors to 100 miles square areas, when shooting distances of over 56 miles, with less than one degree of drop.
    .
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    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: Bible Depicts a Flat and Stationary Earth
    « Reply #74 on: August 25, 2018, 10:57:11 PM »
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  • .
    WTF had to resort to 100+ year-old drivel from the lunatic Rowbotham to answer a question he couldn't answer himself.
    .
    Then when I pointed out his errors he disappeared. Now he hasn't been back for two months.
    .
    Speaking of theodolites, I did some checking online and found you can buy new ones starting at $900, up to $5,000.
    .
    HOWEVER you can right now go on eBay and buy-it-now a very good quality American (or European) theoldolite for $100.
    .
    Of course some on eBay are closer to $1,000, and all in between.
    .
    But if you think renting one instead will save you money, they cost at least $30 a day or $125 a week (better ones are more).
    .
    So if you're going to need one for a week, you ought to consider eBay from the start.
    .
    There is a simple exercise you can do with theodolites that proves the curvature of the earth.
    .
    Of course you have to do some traveling and the whole thing takes a lot of time.
    .
    But if you have two theodolites with tripods, and two operators, this is very simple.
    .
    Go anywhere on the globe and set up the two theodolites in a line of sight with each other 1 mile apart.
    .
    If the earth were "flat" then the two theodolites would always be able to sight each other at any distance.
    .
    Theodolite A would see theodolite B in a level line of sight, while B sees A in a level line, too.
    .
    But they don't.
    .
    Theodolite B will be 8" lower than the level line as seen from A, and theodolite A will appear 8" below the level line from B.
    .
    Sound familiar? 8 inches drop in one mile?
    .
    But theodolites are capable of turning and measuring vertical angles too.
    .
    Therefore, use each A and B to measure how far it needs to turn down to the center of the other instrument.
    .
    You might have to make a target out of a 2 foot square piece of white board with a fat horizontal line in the middle.
    .
    A straight piece of black electrical tape 3/4" wide might be about right, or paint a black line that wide.
    .
    Theodolite A will have to turn let's say 0 degrees, 0 minutes, 0.4 second downward to find the objective lens of theodolite B.
    .
    Curiously, then theodolite B will have to turn down guess how much?
    .
    If your guess was 0 deg. 0 min, 0.4 sec., you would be correct, and that will be the case everywhere you go on planet earth.
    .
    By using two instruments you effectively double check your results every time you take shots.
    .
    When they have a range of only 300 feet, that's as far as you can be separated and still be assured of accuracy.
    .
    But the manufacturers build in a factor of safety for liability concerns.
    .
    The more expensive units give specs for 3500 meters (1,066 ft.).
    .
    So you can actually use these instruments for a 5,280 ft. range and still get very good accuracy, within about an inch.
    .
    One inch is a lot less than 8 inches.
    .
    In any case, you are pushing the instrument beyond its design limits.
    .
    If you want to check for longer distances to get more curvature drop, standard theodolites are not powerful enough.
    .
    Doing this exercise teaches you just how huge the earth is and how subtle its curvature appears without instruments.
    .--. .-.-.- ... .-.-.- ..-. --- .-. - .... . -.- .. -. --. -.. --- -- --..-- - .... . .--. --- .-- . .-. .- -. -.. -....- -....- .--- ..- ... - -.- .. -.. -.. .. -. --. .-.-.