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Author Topic: Best flat earth proof - celestial navigation  (Read 60971 times)

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Online MiracleOfTheSun

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Re: Best flat earth proof - celestial navigation
« Reply #75 on: December 05, 2024, 03:24:08 PM »
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  • Shouldn't we have had the capability to have mapped the earth by now?  Can anyone explain what went wrong?

    That was one of my thoughts until I watched the interview of Admiral Byrd where he stated (paraphrase), "In Antarctica there's an area larger than the United States that hasn't been explored.  It has enough resources to keep the world going for a long time..."  One then has to ask if Admiral Byrd is a fraud, being honest or is simply crazy?  Given his history and role in that operation, it's hard to conclude he's crazy or a fraud. 

    I believe this is the interview but might have to watch it on 2x speed.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PrdSal9uH28&pp=ygUWYWRtaXJhbCBieXJkIGludGVydmlldw%3D%3D

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Best flat earth proof - celestial navigation
    « Reply #76 on: December 05, 2024, 03:34:31 PM »
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  • Your original assertion was that that Ptolemaic model was a geocentric, globe earth model.  But there are variations of this model.  Just because the Middle Ages believed in geocentrism doesn’t mean they believed in Ptolemy's model in 100% of every detail.

    The geocentrism of Christendom in the middle ages was based on Ptolemy's Almagest, typically as explained in university textbooks like Sarabosco's Sphere.  This is also available online :https://www.esotericarchives.com/solomon/sphere.htm


    Quote
    THE EARTH A SPHERE. -- That the earth, too, is round is shown thus. The signs and stars do not rise and set the same for all men everywhere but rise and set sooner for those in the east than for those in the west; and of this there is no other cause than the bulge of the earth. Moreover, celestial phenomena evidence that they rise sooner for Orientals than for westerners. For one and the same eclipse of the moon which appears to us in the first hour of the night appears to Orientals about the third hour of the night, which proves that they had night and sunset before we did, of which setting the bulge of the earth is the cause.

    FURTHER PROOFS OF THIS. -- That the earth also has a bulge from north to south and vice versa is shown thus: To those living toward the north, certain stars are always visible, namely, those near the North Pole, while others which are near the South Pole are always concealed from them. If, then, anyone should proceed from the north southward, he might go so far that the stars which formerly were always visible to him now would tend toward their setting. And the farther south he went, the more they would be moved toward their setting. Again, that same man now could see stars which formerly had always been hidden from him. And the reverse would happen to anyone going from the south northward. The cause of this is simply the bulge of the earth. Again, if the earth were flat from east to west, the stars would rise as soon for westerners as for Orientals. which is false. Also, if the earth were flat from north to south and vice versa, the stars which were always visible to anyone would continue to be so wherever he went, which is false. But it seems flat to human sight because it is so extensive.

    SURFACE OF THE SEA SPHERICAL. -- That the water has a bulge and is approximately round is shown thus: Let a signal be set up on the seacoast and a ship leave port and sail away so far that the eye of a person standing at the foot of the mast can no longer discern the signal. Yet if the ship is stopped, the eye of the same person, if he has climbed to the top of the mast, will see the signal clearly. Yet the eye of a person at the bottom of the mast ought to see the signal better than he who is at the top, as is shown by drawing straight lines from both to the signal. And there is no other explanation of this thing than the bulge of the water. For all other impediments are excluded, such as clouds and rising vapors.


    This is not compatable with the model you are proposing.  You are quite free to try to support your model with science, but there is no reason to claim that it was accepted by Catholics in the middle ages.  There is virtually no evidence to support this claim and you are under no obligation to agree with them anyhow. 


    Offline Tradman

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    Re: Best flat earth proof - celestial navigation
    « Reply #77 on: December 05, 2024, 03:40:36 PM »
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  • Then provide this information.  You have not proven anything yet.

    St. Robert Bellarmine defended the Church's position found in the arguments of the summation of the Galileo trial. The Pythagorean globe model contradicts Scripture and they condemned it. 3 popes condemned the Pythagorean Doctrine without sparing a single teaching. The globe was not spared. What other proof are you specifically looking for?  Going over the Galileo Trial provides an immense amount of information but can be wieldy. 

    Wiki is all over the place with its numbers, but here it says people held 400 years worth of the Hebrew Scriptural model of the earth after Christ. 

    "The Hebrew Bible depicted a three-part world, with the heavens (shamayim) above, Earth (eres) in the middle, and the underworld (sheol) below.[24] After the 4th century BCE this was gradually replaced by a Greek scientific cosmology of a spherical Earth surrounded by multiple concentric heavens.[9]"

    So God was lying or mistaken for 400 years after Christ?   Rather, it is the pagan Greek scientific cosmology that continues to attack the Church to this day, in order to cast doubt on the Scriptural model.  

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Best flat earth proof - celestial navigation
    « Reply #78 on: December 05, 2024, 03:42:44 PM »
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  • Quote
    The geocentrism of Christendom in the middle ages was based on Ptolemy's Almagest,
    Thank you.  You proved my point.  "Based on" does not mean agreement on every, single detail.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Best flat earth proof - celestial navigation
    « Reply #79 on: December 05, 2024, 03:47:31 PM »
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  • Quote
    "The Hebrew Bible depicted a three-part world, with the heavens (shamayim) above, Earth (eres) in the middle, and the underworld (sheol) below.[24] After the 4th century BCE this was gradually replaced by a Greek scientific cosmology of a spherical Earth surrounded by multiple concentric heavens.[9]"

    So God was lying or mistaken for 400 years after Christ?  Rather, it is the pagan Greek scientific cosmology that continues to attack the Church to this day, in order to cast doubt on the Scriptural model.
    Right.  These people are missing for the forest for the trees.  Galileo was a freemason and so was Copernicus.  The freemasons had been corrupting scientific thought for centuries before Copernicus, so that they could prepare the world to accept his masonic/greek/anti-catholic worldview.  Copernicus failed; Galileo was a success (in hindsight).


    Just like the enemies of the Church prepared the world for V2 during the entire 17-1800s (i.e. V2 would've happened in the early 1900s had not God intervened and given us Pope St Pius X), so these same enemies had prepared for CENTURIES during the middle ages to change the cosmological world to one that would support their satanic, heliocentric, anti-Scriptural model.


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Best flat earth proof - celestial navigation
    « Reply #80 on: December 05, 2024, 03:49:53 PM »
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    The video I posted in #23 and #55 shows how math shows that the earth curves.
    That video was entirely based on that Greek guy's calculations from over 2,000 years ago.  The videomaker just assumes the math is correct and re-uses the math in a FE model.  Horribly lazy and dumb.

    Offline Tradman

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    Re: Best flat earth proof - celestial navigation
    « Reply #81 on: December 05, 2024, 03:53:06 PM »
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  • This is not true.  The Wikipedia article you cited says:


    The Sphere by Sacrabosco was one of the main textbooks used to teach "globe earth cosmology" at Catholic universities with the full  approval of the Church.  Cecco was condemned for "audacious theories concerning the employment and agency of demons" that he wrote in his commentary on the Sphere.  Nothing about this suggest that the Church had any problem with people teaching about globe earth.

    The Church burned Cecco and his book that was specifically taught the globe earth.  Notice they didn't preserve the globe theory and say, "oops, we aren't burning Cecco for promoting the globe. We only burned him for other stuff".  Nor did they say, "We are only burning his book about the globe even though we know the earth is a globe." The Church held the Hebrew/Scripture model and the globe was an affront to that.  To try to suggest the Church intended to spare only the globe but burn everything else is silly. They burned it all because it was an evil doctrine. While some people try to reiterate what happened in order to redefine what happened, these are the facts: the Church burned Cecco and his book because the entire Doctrine was condemned in the burning.  Later, 3 popes condemned the Pythagorean Doctrine and never spared the globe.   

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Best flat earth proof - celestial navigation
    « Reply #82 on: December 05, 2024, 03:57:50 PM »
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  • Quote
    SURFACE OF THE SEA SPHERICAL. -- That the water has a bulge and is approximately round is shown thus: Let a signal be set up on the seacoast and a ship leave port and sail away so far that the eye of a person standing at the foot of the mast can no longer discern the signal. Yet if the ship is stopped, the eye of the same person, if he has climbed to the top of the mast, will see the signal clearly. Yet the eye of a person at the bottom of the mast ought to see the signal better than he who is at the top, as is shown by drawing straight lines from both to the signal. And there is no other explanation of this thing than the bulge of the water. For all other impediments are excluded, such as clouds and rising vapors.
    :laugh1:  And there is no other explanation of this thing than the bulge of the water.


    Yeah, there is another explanation...it's called the water vapor coming off the sea and the movement of the waves, over long distances, which impedes vision at sea level.  If these guys had a modern camera, they'd have figured it out.


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Best flat earth proof - celestial navigation
    « Reply #83 on: December 05, 2024, 03:59:22 PM »
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    Nothing about this suggest that the Church had any problem with people teaching about globe earth.
    Jaynek, you really are a dishonest person.  Your posts on various threads, on various topics, proves such.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Best flat earth proof - celestial navigation
    « Reply #84 on: December 05, 2024, 04:05:12 PM »
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  • Quote
    FURTHER PROOFS OF THIS. -- That the earth also has a bulge from north to south and vice versa is shown thus: To those living toward the north, certain stars are always visible, namely, those near the North Pole, while others which are near the South Pole are always concealed from them. If, then, anyone should proceed from the north southward, he might go so far that the stars which formerly were always visible to him now would tend toward their setting. And the farther south he went, the more they would be moved toward their setting. Again, that same man now could see stars which formerly had always been hidden from him. And the reverse would happen to anyone going from the south northward. The cause of this is simply the bulge of the earth. Again, if the earth were flat from east to west, the stars would rise as soon for westerners as for Orientals. which is false. Also, if the earth were flat from north to south and vice versa, the stars which were always visible to anyone would continue to be so wherever he went, which is false. But it seems flat to human sight because it is so extensive.
    1.  This assumes that stars and heavenly bodies are high enough in the sky that everyone should see them.  It could be that they are LOWER than we think, which explains why the vast spread of land cannot see everything at the same time.


    2.  There may be a slight bulge from north/south and east/west.  But this does not prove the earth's land curves in a spherical way. 

    3.  Flat Earth does not mean completely flat.  We know there are variations in altitude, sea level, etc.  Not every inch of land is at sea level, nor is it completely flat everywhere.

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Best flat earth proof - celestial navigation
    « Reply #85 on: December 05, 2024, 04:07:31 PM »
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  • St. Robert Bellarmine defended the Church's position found in the arguments of the summation of the Galileo trial. The Pythagorean globe model contradicts Scripture and they condemned it. 3 popes condemned the Pythagorean Doctrine without sparing a single teaching. The globe was not spared. What other proof are you specifically looking for?  Going over the Galileo Trial provides an immense amount of information but can be wieldy.
    I am looking for papal teaching (or even any Catholic round the time of Galileo) explicitly saying that there is anything wrong with believing the earth is a globe.  One cannot assume that globe earth is included if it is not mentioned.

    Wiki is all over the place with its numbers, but here it says people held 400 years worth of the Hebrew Scriptural model of the earth after Christ.

    "The Hebrew Bible depicted a three-part world, with the heavens (shamayim) above, Earth (eres) in the middle, and the underworld (sheol) below.[24] After the 4th century BCE this was gradually replaced by a Greek scientific cosmology of a spherical Earth surrounded by multiple concentric heavens.[9]"

    This does not support your claim that "Galileo fought the Scriptural model which was a flat geocentric earth."   He lived more more than a thousand years after the Hebrew/Babylonian model was "replaced by a Greek scientific cosmology of a spherical Earth surrounded by multiple concentric heavens."  The latter was the cosmology he was opposing with his heliocentric model.  The sphericity of the earth was not a point under contention.


    I agree that some Catholics believed in the Hebrew/Babylonian cosmology in the first centuries of the Church.  It was, however, not a consensus and it was replaced. And it had nothing to do with the issues at the time of Galileo.


    Offline Mark 79

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    Re: Best flat earth proof - celestial navigation
    « Reply #86 on: December 05, 2024, 04:09:11 PM »
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  • Jaynek, you really are a dishonest person.  Your posts on various threads, on various topics, proves such.

    Of course you gave no verbatim examples because there are no examples existent.

    What you claim gratuitously is denied gratuitously.

    Online Gray2023

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    Re: Best flat earth proof - celestial navigation
    « Reply #87 on: December 05, 2024, 04:11:10 PM »
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  • That video was entirely based on that Greek guy's calculations from over 2,000 years ago.  The videomaker just assumes the math is correct and re-uses the math in a FE model.  Horribly lazy and dumb.
    Instead of just saying the math is dumb (totally a feeling).  Take that math disprove it. 


    Fatti Maschii, Parole Femine

    Offline Tradman

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    Re: Best flat earth proof - celestial navigation
    « Reply #88 on: December 05, 2024, 04:13:03 PM »
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  • Right.  These people are missing for the forest for the trees.  Galileo was a freemason and so was Copernicus.  The freemasons had been corrupting scientific thought for centuries before Copernicus, so that they could prepare the world to accept his masonic/greek/anti-catholic worldview.  Copernicus failed; Galileo was a success (in hindsight).


    Just like the enemies of the Church prepared the world for V2 during the entire 17-1800s (i.e. V2 would've happened in the early 1900s had not God intervened and given us Pope St Pius X), so these same enemies had prepared for CENTURIES during the middle ages to change the cosmological world to one that would support their satanic, heliocentric, anti-Scriptural model.

    Exactly Pax. I used to wonder how people would fall for the Antichrist.  Wouldn't that much evil be obvious?  Now I'm finding that people prefer, for whatever reason, modern human narratives over God's revelation even to the point of being blind to the evil it brings. We know the truth from Scripture, from the Church and we even know who the villains are, yet people refuse to listen. This was the reading just the other day:
     John 5:43 "I have come in my Father’s name, and you do not accept me; but if someone else comes in his own name, you will accept him."

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Best flat earth proof - celestial navigation
    « Reply #89 on: December 05, 2024, 04:13:56 PM »
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  •  
    The Church burned Cecco and his book that was specifically taught the globe earth.  Notice they didn't preserve the globe theory and say, "oops, we aren't burning Cecco for promoting the globe. We only burned him for other stuff". 

    They did preserve the globe theory.  The book teaching globe earth was used at Church controlled universities.  The commentary on the book with bad teaching about demons was burned.  Obviously, the problem in the commentary was not that it taught globe earth.