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Author Topic: Best flat earth proof - celestial navigation  (Read 60959 times)

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Offline Tradman

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Re: Best flat earth proof - celestial navigation
« Reply #60 on: December 05, 2024, 02:09:05 PM »
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  • We do not have any such information.  The condemnation of Galileo said nothing about globe earth.  Tycho Brahe's model, which included a globe earth, was not condemned.  St. Robert himself was a university astronomy professor, which means that he taught globe earth.

    I suspect that you "know" these things becaue you have relied on anti-Catholic sources.

    We do have information to prove that the Hebrew model of the earth, the Scriptural model, was the one that the Church defended precisely because it is the model in Scripture.  

    Offline Gray2023

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    Re: Best flat earth proof - celestial navigation
    « Reply #61 on: December 05, 2024, 02:22:16 PM »
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  • But we have many times.  Michelson-Morley, Michelson-Gale, Sagnac, Airy, Hubble's red shift showing we occupy pretty much dead center in the universe, the Cosmic Microwave Background on three occasions (which produced 'the Axis of Evil' also showing we occupy the center of the universe).  These tests have been repeated numerous times all with the same result - no movement of the earth.  The bible also happens to state this. 

    What's really amazing is how 'science' got around the MM experiments - the machine had to be physically shrinking (yep) at just the exact rate to make it show the earth wasn't moving.  Amazing indeed.  Einstein popped out Relativity and the rest is history.
    Right with Einstein's relativity space understanding fell apart.  I don't disagree with Earth as the center of the universe.  I do think God is predictable though and if the planets appear as spheres then earth should appear as a sphere.  The video I posted in #23 and #55 shows how math shows that the earth curves.  Please view it and let me know your thoughts.  
    Fatti Maschii, Parole Femine


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Best flat earth proof - celestial navigation
    « Reply #62 on: December 05, 2024, 02:25:05 PM »
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    No we don't know that.  People knowledgeable about the middle ages know that the Ptolemaic model (globe earth, geocentric) was the consensus of educated Catholics and probably the uneducated too.  This was the model Galileo was arguing against.
    False dichotomy.  The Ptolemaic/geocentric model of the solar system, does not exclude the possibility of flat land.


    Again, for the 1,000x, the earth. is. a. globe.  It is a globe because the firmament and oceans below the land form a sphere.  But the land itself is flat.  Globe earth/flat land.

    Just like this model shows....



    Or this one....


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Best flat earth proof - celestial navigation
    « Reply #63 on: December 05, 2024, 02:28:09 PM »
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    I do think God is predictable though and if the planets appear as spheres then earth should appear as a sphere.
    Horrible assumption.  Chimpanzee's share 98.8% of similar DNA to humans, but 1) chimpanzees don't have immortal souls, free will or reason.  2) Most humans don't fling poo at each other and live in trees.


    Man in unique from all other animals.  Just like the earth is unique to all other planets.

    Offline Gray2023

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    Re: Best flat earth proof - celestial navigation
    « Reply #64 on: December 05, 2024, 02:30:20 PM »
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  • False dichotomy.  The Ptolemaic/geocentric model of the solar system, does not exclude the possibility of flat land.


    Again, for the 1,000x, the earth. is. a. globe.  It is a globe because the firmament and oceans below the land form a sphere.  But the land itself is flat.  Globe earth/flat land.

    Just like this model shows....



    Or this one....


    Show me the science that supports that.  If the land was flat and presents like a pizza, what is the diameter of Earth?
    Fatti Maschii, Parole Femine


    Offline MiracleOfTheSun

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    Re: Best flat earth proof - celestial navigation
    « Reply #65 on: December 05, 2024, 02:40:10 PM »
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  • The video I posted in #23 and #55 shows how math shows that the earth curves.  Please view it and let me know your thoughts. 

    I watched that when it was posted in #23.  What I find interesting about all of this is that there is actually enough for both sides to go on.  One can say 'the math proves it' but then flat earthers have record breaking line-of-site tests, laser tests over 25 miles of open water, engineering and government works all using a flat based system, etc. 

    Another thing I was wondering about was a biblical firmament and then some guy posted a video of him reading from a 1956 US Encyclopedia saying the Firmament was detected in Antarctica around 13,000 feet.  Pretty strange world out there.

    Offline MiracleOfTheSun

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    Re: Best flat earth proof - celestial navigation
    « Reply #66 on: December 05, 2024, 02:43:06 PM »
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  • Show me the science that supports that.  If the land was flat and presents like a pizza, what is the diameter of Earth?

    Maybe we'll have to ask the Freemasons if we can borrow their compass and ruler first.


    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Best flat earth proof - celestial navigation
    « Reply #67 on: December 05, 2024, 02:47:04 PM »
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  • False dichotomy.  The Ptolemaic/geocentric model of the solar system, does not exclude the possibility of flat land.

    There may be some geocentric models that include a flat/snowglobe earth. but the Ptolemaic model is a specific geocentric model which is not compatible with it.  The Almagest is available online and you can read it for yourself. https://classicalliberalarts.com/resources/PTOLEMY_ALMAGEST_ENGLISH.pdf  For now, here are some quotes from the Wikipedia article on it:


    Quote
    The Almagest ([color=var(--color-progressive,#36c)]/ˈælmədʒɛst/[/iurl][/font][/size][/color] [color=var(--color-progressive,#36c)]AL-mə-jest[/color]) is a 2nd-century [color=var(--color-progressive,#36c)]mathematical[/color] and [color=var(--color-progressive,#36c)]astronomical[/color] treatise on the apparent motions of the [color=var(--color-progressive,#36c)]stars[/color] and [color=var(--color-progressive,#36c)]planetary[/color] paths, written by [color=var(--color-progressive,#36c)]Claudius Ptolemy[/color] (c. AD 100 – c. 170) in [color=var(--color-progressive,#36c)]Koine Greek[/color].[color=var(--color-progressive,#36c)][1][/iurl][/font][/size][/color] One of the most influential scientific texts in history, it canonized a [color=var(--color-progressive,#36c)]geocentric model[/color] of the [color=var(--color-progressive,#36c)]Universe[/color] that was accepted for more than 1,200 years from its origin in Hellenistic [color=var(--color-progressive,#36c)]Alexandria[/color], in the medieval [color=var(--color-progressive,#36c)]Byzantine[/color] and [color=var(--color-progressive,#36c)]Islamic[/color] worlds, and in Western Europe through the [color=var(--color-progressive,#36c)]Middle Ages[/color] and early [color=var(--color-progressive,#36c)]Renaissance[/color] until [color=var(--color-progressive,#36c)]Copernicus[/color].

    Quote
    Book I contains an outline of [color=var(--color-progressive,#36c)]Aristotle[/color]'s cosmology: on the spherical form of the heavens, with the spherical Earth lying motionless as the center, with the [color=var(--color-progressive,#36c)]fixed stars[/color] and the various [color=var(--color-progressive,#36c)]planets[/color] revolving around the Earth.

    In this context, spherical earth actually means spherical earth.

    (Sorry about the formatting.  I'm not sure how to fix it.)


    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Best flat earth proof - celestial navigation
    « Reply #68 on: December 05, 2024, 02:51:03 PM »
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  • We do have information to prove that the Hebrew model of the earth, the Scriptural model, was the one that the Church defended precisely because it is the model in Scripture. 


    Then provide this information.  You have not proven anything yet.

    Offline Gray2023

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    Re: Best flat earth proof - celestial navigation
    « Reply #69 on: December 05, 2024, 02:57:18 PM »
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  • I watched that when it was posted in #23.  What I find interesting about all of this is that there is actually enough for both sides to go on.  One can say 'the math proves it' but then flat earthers have record breaking line-of-site tests, laser tests over 25 miles of open water, engineering and government works all using a flat based system, etc. 

    Another thing I was wondering about was a biblical firmament and then some guy posted a video of him reading from a 1956 US Encyclopedia saying the Firmament was detected in Antarctica around 13,000 feet.  Pretty strange world out there.
    Yes I am still trying to figure out how the line of site tests work.  I just wish some trusted Catholic made a space ship and just went up into the air far enough so we could know for certain the shape of earth.
    Fatti Maschii, Parole Femine

    Offline MiracleOfTheSun

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    Re: Best flat earth proof - celestial navigation
    « Reply #70 on: December 05, 2024, 03:04:19 PM »
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  • Seems to me there are two possibilities with the line-of-site argument.  Either we live in a 'digital' world where things bounce with precision off the atmosphere and come back exactly where you need them to be to support a globe (kind of like the machine started shrinking after the MM results), or we live in an 'analog' world where signals bounce more randomly.  If we live in an analog world, which I'm inclined to believe, the line-of-site argument would support a flat earth.  


    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Best flat earth proof - celestial navigation
    « Reply #71 on: December 05, 2024, 03:05:46 PM »
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  • Cecco was burned at the stake for his globe earth cosmology

    This is not true.  The Wikipedia article you cited says:

    Quote
    Having published a commentary on the Sphere of [color=var(--color-progressive,#36c)]John de Sacrobosco[/color], in which he propounded audacious theories concerning the employment and agency of demons, he got into difficulties with the clerical party, and was condemned in 1324 to certain fasts and prayers, and to the payment of a fine of seventy crowns. To elude this sentence he went to [color=var(--color-progressive,#36c)]Florence[/color], where he was attached to the household of 
    Carlo de Calabria. His pseudo-science and plain speaking had made him many enemies; he had attacked the Commedia of Dante, and the Canzone d'amore of [color=var(--color-progressive,#36c)]Guido Cavalcanti[/color].[color=var(--color-progressive,#36c)][1][/iurl][/font][/size][/color] The physician [color=var(--color-progressive,#36c)]Dino del Garbo[/color] was indefatigable in pursuit of him; and the old accusation of impiety being renewed, Cecco was again tried and sentenced for relapse into heresy. He was burned at Florence the day after the sentence, in his seventieth year.


    The Sphere by Sacrabosco was one of the main textbooks used to teach "globe earth cosmology" at Catholic universities with the full  approval of the Church.  Cecco was condemned for "audacious theories concerning the employment and agency of demons" that he wrote in his commentary on the Sphere.  Nothing about this suggest that the Church had any problem with people teaching about globe earth.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Best flat earth proof - celestial navigation
    « Reply #72 on: December 05, 2024, 03:13:02 PM »
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    but the Ptolemaic model is a specific geocentric model which is not compatible with it. 
    Your original assertion was that that Ptolemaic model was a geocentric, globe earth model.  But there are variations of this model.  Just because the Middle Ages believed in geocentrism doesn’t mean they believed in Ptolemy's model in 100% of every detail.  


    The point is, Ptolemy is famous because he went against the Greek, heliocentric, satanist theory.  But the geocentric model is a very general idea.  Ptolemy is like the term “google”.  There are different internet browsers even though people say they are “googling/searching” something.  

    And there can be a geocentric model where the earth is a snow globe.  

    Offline Gray2023

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    Re: Best flat earth proof - celestial navigation
    « Reply #73 on: December 05, 2024, 03:13:13 PM »
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  • Show me the science that supports that.  If the land was flat and presents like a pizza, what is the diameter of Earth?
    I used this calculator to determine distances as the crow flies.

    https://www.freemaptools.com/how-far-is-it-between.htm

    I went from Mcmurdo Station, Antarctic to Thule Air Force Base, Greenland the distance is approximately 8497 miles.  Double this would give a diameter of approximately 16994 miles.  Perth, Western Australia, should be on the opposite side of the North Pole, based on the map below.  It isn't.  Based on the above calculator Perth is only 3518 miles away.  Something does not add up when you try to create a flat model of Earth.  Shouldn't we have had the capability to have mapped the earth by now?  Can anyone explain what went wrong?


    Fatti Maschii, Parole Femine

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Best flat earth proof - celestial navigation
    « Reply #74 on: December 05, 2024, 03:14:33 PM »
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    Show me the science that supports that.
    :facepalm:  Show me the non-nasa, non-heretical/Galileo, non-Freemasonic science which opposes it. 

    Your problem is that your starting from an erroneous source (ie godless modernist science) and trying to figure out what is a lie.  (Hint:  most of it is a lie).

    I’m starting from the true source (ie Noah, post flood, handed down to the Israelites) and saying “whatever is contrary is wrong”.

    You have only 500 yrs of sources.  I have 2,500+ years of various peoples, civilizations, etc, pagan and Christian - all of whom agree.