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Author Topic: Best flat earth proof - celestial navigation  (Read 60927 times)

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Offline Meg

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Re: Best flat earth proof - celestial navigation
« Reply #30 on: December 05, 2024, 10:17:36 AM »
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  • I've found the opposite information from the Fathers, so globe quotes from any notables would make it helpful to support such claims.  As far as discernable, from both secular and Catholic positions, the Hebrew view of the earth was largely held by all saints and Fathers at least until the Copernican Revolution, which, as the name advertises, was an upheaval and overthrow of the original belief in a flat stationary earth.   

    Yes, the Hebrew view of the earth makes far more sense than a ball earth, since it is based on Scripture. It makes sense too that the Hebrew view was held by saints and Fathers before the Copernican revolution, though with a few exceptions, of course. 
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Best flat earth proof - celestial navigation
    « Reply #31 on: December 05, 2024, 10:20:54 AM »
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  • Yes, some posters have claimed that Catholics are obliged to believe in a flat earth, but that's been quite a few years ago, I think.

    I'm pleased to see that this is no longer the case. That was a seriously wrong position.

    It may have been wrong, but ball earthers have argued the same, though not in actual words to that effect. Rather they argue as if we are all obliged to believe in a ball earth.

    Nobody said that back when I followed discussions on the topic here.  Are you thinking of the argument that , since the Church teaches that Scripture is silent on the shape of the earth, it is wrong to argue for it from Scripture and one should only use science?


    Offline Meg

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    Re: Best flat earth proof - celestial navigation
    « Reply #32 on: December 05, 2024, 10:23:32 AM »
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  • I'm pleased to see that this is no longer the case. That was a seriously wrong position.

    Nobody said that back when I followed discussions on the topic here.  Are you thinking of the argument that , since the Church teaches that Scripture is silent on the shape of the earth, it is wrong to argue for it from Scripture and one should only use science?

    They didn't say in in so many words. It was the idea that no one should be allowed to believe in a flat earth that was the problem. As you well know, since you were one of those forum members. 
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Best flat earth proof - celestial navigation
    « Reply #33 on: December 05, 2024, 10:23:39 AM »
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  • I've found the opposite information from the Fathers, so globe quotes from any notables would make it helpful to support such claims.  As far as discernable, from both secular and Catholic positions, the Hebrew view of the earth was largely held by all saints and Fathers at least until the Copernican Revolution, which, as the name advertises, was an upheaval and overthrow of the original belief in a flat stationary earth.   

    There were anti-Catholic authors who wrote books that claimed this, but they are now recognized for their bias and dishonesty.  I hope you weren't using them for a source.

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Best flat earth proof - celestial navigation
    « Reply #34 on: December 05, 2024, 10:30:38 AM »
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  • They didn't say in in so many words. It was the idea that no one should be allowed to believe in a flat earth that was the problem. As you well know, since you were one of those forum members.

    I remember there was at least one poster who was quite abrasively insistent that it was wrong and stupid to believe in flat earth.  That really isn't the same as saying it isn't allowed.  My own position was that it should only be discussed as a matter of science and not Scripture.  But that is not saying that it should not be allowed at all.  Obviously, if there is a good case from science for it, it should be allowed.  That is how science works.


    Offline Meg

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    Re: Best flat earth proof - celestial navigation
    « Reply #35 on: December 05, 2024, 10:33:20 AM »
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  • I remember there was at least one poster who was quite abrasively insistent that it was wrong and stupid to believe in flat earth.  That really isn't the same as saying it isn't allowed.  My own position was that it should only be discussed as a matter of science and not Scripture.  But that is not saying that it should not be allowed at all.  Obviously, if there is a good case from science for it, it should be allowed.  That is how science works.

    That's not how I recall those debates. You were extremely anti-flat earth. And not very charitable about it. I doubt that your views have changed. Mine certainly haven't. So if you want to rehash this topic, I am willing to do so, but you won't change my mind on the subject.

    I also recall that you once said that you believe in evolution, or a modified version of it. Is that still true?
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Best flat earth proof - celestial navigation
    « Reply #36 on: December 05, 2024, 10:41:38 AM »
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  • That's not how I recall those debates. You were extremely anti-flat earth. And not very charitable about it. I doubt that your views have changed. Mine certainly haven't. So if you want to rehash this topic, I am willing to do so, but you won't change my mind on the subject.

    I also recall that you once said that you believe in evolution, or a modified version of it. Is that still true?
    Our recollections of these past discussions are quite different.  I remember people commenting on me being a reasonablbe and polite proponent of globe earth.  And I find it hard to imagine that I would have said I believed in evolution.  

    Offline Meg

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    Re: Best flat earth proof - celestial navigation
    « Reply #37 on: December 05, 2024, 10:59:04 AM »
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  • Our recollections of these past discussions are quite different.  I remember people commenting on me being a reasonablbe and polite proponent of globe earth.  And I find it hard to imagine that I would have said I believed in evolution. 

    That's not my memory of those debates at all.

    I recall being very surprised that you said that you believed in evolution, or rather a modified version of it. I've not ever seen a traditional Catholic say that, and that's why I remember it. If you deny it, that's fine. But I think you have quite modern ideas, and you seem to think that others here should too.
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29


    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Best flat earth proof - celestial navigation
    « Reply #38 on: December 05, 2024, 11:09:27 AM »
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  •  But I think you have quite modern ideas, and you seem to think that others here should too.

    Believing the earth is a globe is not, however, a modern idea.  It was the scientific consensus of Catholics throughout the middle ages.  Of course, I see nothing strange about traditional Catholics continuing to think this.

    Offline Tradman

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    Re: Best flat earth proof - celestial navigation
    « Reply #39 on: December 05, 2024, 11:10:45 AM »
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  • St. Thomas only mentions it in passing in the Summa.  He goes into detail in his commentary on Aristotles' main work on cosmology.  Both are called De Caelo. St. Thomas is quite explicit in his agreement with Aristotle, saying both that it is true the earth is a globe and  that it is false to claim that the earth is flat.  St. Bede wrote about it De temporum Ratione (The Reckoning of Time).  He drew extensively from the writings of Pliny. 

    https://blogs.bl.uk/digitisedmanuscripts/2018/05/the-earth-is-in-fact-round.html

    This blog has some good information. Unfortunately, it also contains erroneous assumptions. For instance, the blogger assumes St. Bede is describing a terrestrial globe, the earth itself, when, at the time in the eighth century, the royal symbol of the globus cruciger representing all of creation was acknowledged and commonly used as a figure of authority throughout European kingdoms and commonwealths. When Bede talks about the world, because it was common to his time, he is talking about all of creation.     
        

    Offline Tradman

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    Re: Best flat earth proof - celestial navigation
    « Reply #40 on: December 05, 2024, 11:15:01 AM »
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  • There were anti-Catholic authors who wrote books that claimed this, but they are now recognized for their bias and dishonesty.  I hope you weren't using them for a source.

    The teachings come from the saints themselves and they source their views in Scripture. Although some anti-Catholics reference the saints in order to make them look stupid for being flat earthers, when that happens, it seems the anti-Catholic is doing Catholics a service.


    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Best flat earth proof - celestial navigation
    « Reply #41 on: December 05, 2024, 11:22:49 AM »
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  •  When Bede talks about the world, because it was common to his time, he is talking about all of creation.       
     How would that make sense in the quote?

    ‘The reason why the same days are of unequal length is the roundness of the Earth, for not without reason is it called ‘‘the orb of the world’’ on the pages of Holy Scripture and of ordinary literature. It is, in fact, a sphere set in the middle of the whole universe. It is not merely circular like a shield [or] spread out like a wheel, but resembles more a ball, being equally round in all directions ...’

    He is explaing why the same days have unequal length.  This is a well-known argument for globe earth.



    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Best flat earth proof - celestial navigation
    « Reply #42 on: December 05, 2024, 11:35:05 AM »
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  • The teachings come from the saints themselves and they source their views in Scripture. Although some anti-Catholics reference the saints in order to make them look stupid for being flat earthers, when that happens, it seems the anti-Catholic is doing Catholics a service.


    When those anti-Catholc authors quoted Saints they distorted their meaning (out of context, etc.) to make it appear far more believed in flat earth than actually did.  The Flat Earth Trads site gives four or five quotes from Church Fathers who argued for flat earth.  These are the only genuine examples.  By the time of Copernicus it had been many centuries since any record of Catholics believing in flat earth.

    Offline Meg

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    Re: Best flat earth proof - celestial navigation
    « Reply #43 on: December 05, 2024, 11:40:42 AM »
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  • Believing the earth is a globe is not, however, a modern idea.  It was the scientific consensus of Catholics throughout the middle ages.  Of course, I see nothing strange about traditional Catholics continuing to think this.

    When one thinks about how old the Church is, and how old the ancient Hebrew cosmology was (based on Scripture), then yes, a ball earth is a modern idea. IMO.

    If you want to believe that the earth is a ball, that's fine. But some of us do not. You've never been able to prove that all Catholics believed in a ball earth through the middle ages. Some of the universities taught this, but so what. That doesn't make it true. 
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Tradman

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    Re: Best flat earth proof - celestial navigation
    « Reply #44 on: December 05, 2024, 11:54:27 AM »
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  • How would that make sense in the quote?

    ‘The reason why the same days are of unequal length is the roundness of the Earth, for not without reason is it called ‘‘the orb of the world’’ on the pages of Holy Scripture and of ordinary literature. It is, in fact, a sphere set in the middle of the whole universe. It is not merely circular like a shield [or] spread out like a wheel, but resembles more a ball, being equally round in all directions ...’

    He is explaing why the same days have unequal length.  This is a well-known argument for globe earth.

    Would you happen to have the full contextual source of the quote? To see it in context would enable everyone to be assured of his position on the matter.  The fact that he sources Scripture immediately shows he does not believe the earth is a globe. Scripture does not refer to the earth as the orb of the world so that quote is either incorrect, or it is mistranslated.  The only word in Scripture that even comes close is "orbis" and that means "circle".


    orbis, orbis [m.] M
    [color=var(--bs-badge-color)]Noun[/font][/size][/color]
    Translations

    • circle
    • region/territory
    • defines circular objects