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Author Topic: Best flat earth proof - celestial navigation  (Read 60939 times)

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Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: Best flat earth proof - celestial navigation
« Reply #15 on: December 03, 2024, 02:10:35 PM »
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    The North star is not always in the same spot overhead at night.
    The north star is part of the big dipper and does not move.
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Best flat earth proof - celestial navigation
    « Reply #16 on: December 03, 2024, 02:23:14 PM »
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    Here is how star navigation works.  The information comes from a google search.
    Ok, this is from a heliocentric point of view.



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    The Sphere Earth if it is spinning, spins like a top.
    This is certainly not a modern-science explanation.  And it's not FE.  So where does this come from?



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    A star that they both saw would only have to be 1804 miles above the earth. 
    Modern science does not think that stars are only thousands of miles above earth.  So your point aligns with FE, that stars are much closer.



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    I was not making a claim for any type of cosomology.
    That's why your posts are very confusing.  You're mixing and matching sources.  Hard to have a discussion.
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    Offline Gray2023

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    Re: Best flat earth proof - celestial navigation
    « Reply #17 on: December 03, 2024, 03:08:50 PM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on December 03, 2024, 02:10:35 PM
    The north star is part of the big dipper and does not move.
    The North Star, also known as Polaris, is located in the constellation Ursa Minor, which is commonly called the Little Dipper or Little Bear; it's situated at the end of the handle of the Little Dipper. 


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    Fatti Maschii, Parole Femine

    Offline AMDGJMJ

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    Re: Best flat earth proof - celestial navigation
    « Reply #18 on: December 04, 2024, 05:17:57 AM »
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    • Quote from: Gray2023 on December 03, 2024, 12:47:45 PM
    Does the Earth not moving mean it is flat? I am not sure that the belief in shape, leads to a decision about the movement.
    I personally believe in a stationary globe earth.  I think that I remember from past polls that many other Cathinfo members also hold such to be true.  :cowboy:
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    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Best flat earth proof - celestial navigation
    « Reply #19 on: December 04, 2024, 05:43:31 AM »
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    • Quote from: AMDGJMJ on December 04, 2024, 05:17:57 AM
    I personally believe in a stationary globe earth.  I think that I remember from past polls that many other Cathinfo members also hold such to be true.  :cowboy:
    I would have expected this to be the most common belief here, given the way it dominated the history of the Church.  I have the impression the science support is pretty good too.   The poster Cassini is an expert if anyone has questions. 
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    Offline Gray2023

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    Re: Best flat earth proof - celestial navigation
    « Reply #20 on: December 04, 2024, 09:58:57 AM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on December 03, 2024, 02:23:14 PM
    Ok, this is from a heliocentric point of view.


    This is certainly not a modern-science explanation.  And it's not FE.  So where does this come from?


    Modern science does not think that stars are only thousands of miles above earth.  So your point aligns with FE, that stars are much closer.


    That's why your posts are very confusing.  You're mixing and matching sources.  Hard to have a discussion.
    I apologize for the confusion, but discussing the cosmos isn't a simple matter.

    There are several ideas at play

    Shape: Flat vs Sphere
    Movement: Stationary vs spinning
    Relation in the universe: snow globe vs heliocentric vs geocentric.

    The Op video was discussing shape and its relation to the stars.  The first thing I noticed is the video gave incorrect info on how the geometry worked.  That is why I commented. 

    To be clear I believe the earth is a sphere, I tend to believe the earth doesn't spin, and is the center of the universe.

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    Offline Tradman

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    Re: Best flat earth proof - celestial navigation
    « Reply #21 on: December 04, 2024, 02:59:48 PM »
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    • Quote from: Gray2023 on December 03, 2024, 09:05:51 AM
    He is making a poor mathematical assumption.

    We are not talking about distances we are only talking about the angle from where the ship is in relation to the star.

    Look at what was drawn at :43.  That is not how it should be drawn. 

    It should have been drawn like this, so it really doesn't matter if the earth is curved or flat.  The geometry would work the same.

    The process of nautical navigation depends on a level baseline and cannot work over extended distances if the baseline is curved. It is because navigation works for the past thousands of years, the earth must be relatively level and cannot be the form of a globe.   
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    Offline Meg

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    Re: Best flat earth proof - celestial navigation
    « Reply #22 on: December 04, 2024, 08:39:13 PM »
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    • Quote from: Jaynek on December 04, 2024, 05:43:31 AM
    I would have expected this to be the most common belief here, given the way it dominated the history of the Church.  I have the impression the science support is pretty good too.  The poster Cassini is an expert if anyone has questions.

    It may be the most common belief, but it is not the only belief here on this forum. Just because something may be commonly held, does not in itself make it true. Since there is no Church teaching which requires us to believe that the earth is either a ball, or flat, we can still debate the subject, even if one's particular view is not the "common" one.
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    Offline Gray2023

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    Re: Best flat earth proof - celestial navigation
    « Reply #23 on: December 04, 2024, 10:47:08 PM »
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    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Best flat earth proof - celestial navigation
    « Reply #24 on: December 05, 2024, 05:57:49 AM »
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    • Quote from: Meg on December 04, 2024, 08:39:13 PM
    Since there is no Church teaching which requires us to believe that the earth is either a ball, or flat, we can still debate the subject. ..
    Good point. There used to be some posters who claimed Catholics were obliged to believe in Flat Earth (I think they were confused about the condemnation of Galileo ) That was really wrong.

    But I have to admit that am influenced by the knowledge that St Bede and St Thomas taught Globe Earth. Even though I know their teaching about science isn't binding, I just admire them so much.

    I also think their arguments for it make sense.  I'm not completely irrational. :jester:
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    Offline Tradman

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    Re: Best flat earth proof - celestial navigation
    « Reply #25 on: December 05, 2024, 09:06:13 AM »
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    • Quote from: Jaynek on December 05, 2024, 05:57:49 AM
    Good point. There used to be some posters who claimed Catholics were obliged to believe in Flat Earth (I think they were confused about the condemnation of Galileo ) That was really wrong.

    But I have to admit that am influenced by the knowledge that St Bede and St Thomas taught Globe Earth. Even though I know their teaching about science isn't binding, I just admire them so much.

    I also think their arguments for it make sense.  I'm not completely irrational. :jester:

    What are the teachings or quotes showing that St. Bede and St. Thomas taught about the globe shaped earth? 
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    Offline Meg

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    Re: Best flat earth proof - celestial navigation
    « Reply #26 on: December 05, 2024, 09:30:54 AM »
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    • Quote from: Tradman on December 05, 2024, 09:06:13 AM
    What are the teachings or quotes showing that St. Bede and St. Thomas taught about the globe shaped earth?

    I don't know about St. Bede, but St. Thomas did believe in a ball earth; I recall seeing it, but can't remember where, it may have been the Summa. 

    I think that he was likely influenced by his mentor, St. Albert, who also believed in a ball earth. As Jayne said, it (their belief on the subject) isn't binding. Saints can be wrong, especially when it comes to science.
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Meg

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    Re: Best flat earth proof - celestial navigation
    « Reply #27 on: December 05, 2024, 09:35:59 AM »
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    • Quote from: Jaynek on December 05, 2024, 05:57:49 AM
    Good point. There used to be some posters who claimed Catholics were obliged to believe in Flat Earth (I think they were confused about the condemnation of Galileo ) That was really wrong.

    But I have to admit that am influenced by the knowledge that St Bede and St Thomas taught Globe Earth. Even though I know their teaching about science isn't binding, I just admire them so much.

    I also think their arguments for it make sense.  I'm not completely irrational. :jester:

    Yes, some posters have claimed that Catholics are obliged to believe in a flat earth, but that's been quite a few years ago, I think. It may have been wrong, but ball earthers have argued the same, though not in actual words to that effect. Rather they argue as if we are all obliged to believe in a ball earth. Not quite the same thing, but still...

    I too admire St. Thomas - most traditionalists do. But I think he was wrong about the shape of the earth. 
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Tradman

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    Re: Best flat earth proof - celestial navigation
    « Reply #28 on: December 05, 2024, 09:57:44 AM »
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    • Quote from: Meg on December 05, 2024, 09:30:54 AM
    I don't know about St. Bede, but St. Thomas did believe in a ball earth; I recall seeing it, but can't remember where, it may have been the Summa.

    I think that he was likely influenced by his mentor, St. Albert, who also believed in a ball earth. As Jayne said, it (their belief on the subject) isn't binding. Saints can be wrong, especially when it comes to science.

    I've found the opposite information from the Fathers, so globe quotes from any notables would make it helpful to support such claims.  As far as discernable, from both secular and Catholic positions, the Hebrew view of the earth was largely held by all saints and Fathers at least until the Copernican Revolution, which, as the name advertises, was an upheaval and overthrow of the original belief in a flat stationary earth.      
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    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Best flat earth proof - celestial navigation
    « Reply #29 on: December 05, 2024, 10:13:13 AM »
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    • Quote from: Tradman on December 05, 2024, 09:06:13 AM
    What are the teachings or quotes showing that St. Bede and St. Thomas taught about the globe shaped earth?
    St. Thomas only mentions it in passing in the Summa.  He goes into detail in his commentary on Aristotles' main work on cosmology.  Both are called De Caelo. St. Thomas is quite explicit in his agreement with Aristotle, saying both that it is true the earth is a globe and  that it is false to claim that the earth is flat.  St. Bede wrote about it De temporum Ratione (The Reckoning of Time).  He drew extensively from the writings of Pliny.  

    Quote
    ‘The reason why the same days are of unequal length is the roundness of the Earth, for not without reason is it called ‘‘the orb of the world’’ on the pages of Holy Scripture and of ordinary literature. It is, in fact, a sphere set in the middle of the whole universe. It is not merely circular like a shield [or] spread out like a wheel, but resembles more a ball, being equally round in all directions ...’ (Bede, The Reckoning of Time, translated by Faith Wallis (Liverpool University Press, 1999), p. 91).

    https://blogs.bl.uk/digitisedmanuscripts/2018/05/the-earth-is-in-fact-round.html
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