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Author Topic: Best flat earth proof - celestial navigation  (Read 60972 times)

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Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: Best flat earth proof - celestial navigation
« Reply #90 on: December 05, 2024, 04:16:28 PM »
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    Instead of just saying the math is dumb
    This discussion isn't a math problem.  "Science" doesn't solve the problem.  Scripture + Science + Faith = solution.


    You're trying to figure this out just using science.  Won't work.
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    Offline Tradman

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    Re: Best flat earth proof - celestial navigation
    « Reply #91 on: December 05, 2024, 04:17:16 PM »
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    • Quote from: Jaynek on December 05, 2024, 04:13:56 PM
    They did preserve the globe theory.  The book teaching globe earth was used at Church controlled universities.  The commentary on the book with bad teaching about demons was burned.  Obviously, the problem in the commentary was not that it taught globe earth.

    Universities also teach anti-Catholic ideologies sometimes, but that doesn't make doing so legit.   
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Best flat earth proof - celestial navigation
    « Reply #92 on: December 05, 2024, 04:22:34 PM »
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    They did preserve the globe theory.
    :facepalm:  There's variations of the globe theory.  There could be a globe earth with flat land.  You keep interpreting "globe" in only 1 sense.  With no proof.


    p.s. If a bunch of catholic universities in the middle ages agreed on something, it doesn't make it de fide.

    1.  Galileo's arguments were a CONTINUATION/EXTENSION of what was currently believed.
    2.  Most famous scientists of the day were freemasonic.
    3.  The "currently believed" narrative was mostly likely implicitly wrong/infiltrated.

    Galileo's errors did not come out of "left field"; there were seeds of error planted long before, which most of the time had accepted (i.e. mainstream university thought).  Just like the 1969 missal didn't appear from nowhere.  It was prepared beforehand, by the 55 Holy week changes, and the post 62 missal changes.  
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    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Best flat earth proof - celestial navigation
    « Reply #93 on: December 05, 2024, 04:22:48 PM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on December 05, 2024, 04:05:12 PM
    1.  This assumes that stars and heavenly bodies are high enough in the sky that everyone should see them.  It could be that they are LOWER than we think, which explains why the vast spread of land cannot see everything at the same time.

    g
    2.  There may be a slight bulge from north/south and east/west.  But this does not prove the earth's land curves in a spherical way. 

    3.  Flat Earth does not mean completely flat.  We know there are variations in altitude, sea level, etc.  Not every inch of land is at sea level, nor is it completely flat everywhere.
    how
    My point was not that Sacrabosco's proofs were correct.  It is that they establish how medieval Catholics understood Ptolomaic cosmology.  They believed in a spherical earth and it was not compatible with the model you propose.

    You are, of course, free to disagree with them.  But it is wrong to claim that they believed something they did not believe.
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    Offline Gray2023

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    Re: Best flat earth proof - celestial navigation
    « Reply #94 on: December 05, 2024, 04:25:50 PM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on December 05, 2024, 03:59:22 PM
    Jaynek, you really are a dishonest person.  Your posts on various threads, on various topics, proves such.
    Personal attacks doesn't help the conversation. It really is just saying you don't accept what she is saying, you have nothing to come back with, so you are just going to discredit everything else she says.  
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Best flat earth proof - celestial navigation
    « Reply #95 on: December 05, 2024, 04:26:24 PM »
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    It is that they establish how medieval Catholics understood Ptolomaic cosmology. 
    :jester:  I love how you put millions of catholics, in a time period of hundreds of years (Middle Ages), into 1 box and claim they all agreed.  This is the dumbest argument ever.
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    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Best flat earth proof - celestial navigation
    « Reply #96 on: December 05, 2024, 04:26:40 PM »
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    • Quote from: Tradman on December 05, 2024, 04:17:16 PM

    Universities also teach anti-Catholic ideologies sometimes, but that doesn't make doing so legit. 
    At this point in time, universities were Church institutions that had a papal charter.  The Church did not allow things to be taught at university that were in conflict with Church teaching.
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Best flat earth proof - celestial navigation
    « Reply #97 on: December 05, 2024, 04:30:11 PM »
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    At this point in time, universities were Church institutions that had a papal charter.  The Church did not allow things to be taught at university that were in conflict with Church teaching.
    In the Middle Ages, the Franciscans and Dominicans had untold numbers of debates (and many led to fist fights) over the concept of the Immaculate Conception (which had not yet been defined in detail).

    Yet you somehow want us to believe the fairytale that every catholic university believed the exact same scientific model of the cosmos.  :jester:  
    Meanwhile, in this same time period, it was the height of the Scholastic method, which relies on debate and proofs and challenges.  (Not like the current school model which people just memorize and regurgitate info, without any critical thinking).

    You are ridiculous.
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    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Best flat earth proof - celestial navigation
    « Reply #98 on: December 05, 2024, 04:35:50 PM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on December 05, 2024, 04:26:24 PM
    :jester:  I love how you put millions of catholics, in a time period of hundreds of years (Middle Ages), into 1 box and claim they all agreed.  This is the dumbest argument ever.

    We know what books were used to teach cosmology at the universities (with Church approval).  So we know that these ideas were very widespread.  And we don't have any evidence that anyone disagreed with them.  As I already said, it is theoretically possible that somebody somewhere disagreed.  We have no reason to think it was significant, considering it left no trace.
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    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Best flat earth proof - celestial navigation
    « Reply #99 on: December 05, 2024, 04:43:45 PM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on December 05, 2024, 04:22:34 PM
    p.s. If a bunch of catholic universities in the middle ages agreed on something, it doesn't make it de fide.
    Of course, it was not de fide.  It was being taught as natural science.  But there is no sign that the Church had any problem with people teaching or accepting the widespread scientific belief that the earth is a globe.  There are even Doctors of the Church who taught it (as science).  
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    Offline Gray2023

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    Re: Best flat earth proof - celestial navigation
    « Reply #100 on: December 05, 2024, 04:48:03 PM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on December 05, 2024, 04:16:28 PM
    This discussion isn't a math problem.  "Science" doesn't solve the problem.  Scripture + Science + Faith = solution.


    You're trying to figure this out just using science.  Won't work.
    But math is the basic of science.  The model of earth that you describe has no math.  Please provide some math that works.  That is all I am asking for.

    So your description of earth is Scripture + Faith =  Flat Earth. 

    All of the videos that I have seen that say it proves the flatness of earth, do not use any math, they just use circuмstantial or anecdotal evidence. 

    The videos seem to be designed to mislead people, I do admit they do a convincing job, but we need to move on from theory and actually get to some mathematical proofs. 

    The only thing I have not been able to figure out is line of site videos, but I question those because they are hard to recreate and I have not seen any videos with people doing the same line of site test and getting the same results, which means the line of site test is not a reliable science experiment. 

    If the line of site science is true, then you should be able to recreate the test over and over again.
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    Fatti Maschii, Parole Femine

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Best flat earth proof - celestial navigation
    « Reply #101 on: December 05, 2024, 04:55:06 PM »
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    We know what books were used to teach cosmology at the universities (with Church approval).  So we know that these ideas were very widespread. 
    They were starting points for discussion; not facts which couldn't be challenged.  You're missing the whole point of Scholasticism, which is why modernist schooling had to destroy such.


    Quote
    And we don't have any evidence that anyone disagreed with them.  

    :facepalm:  The smartest catholics were the French and Spanish, especially the university of Salamanca. 
    1.  Have you read every french and spanish scientific journal of the time?  Or are you just assuming that the masonic-controlled modern science would actually translate theories which would challenge the current, atheistic worldview?
    2.  Are you actually positing that the French Revolution didn't destroy/burn those books which supported catholic views?
    3.  Are you actually positing that the Spanish marranos didn't work to undermine the spread of spanish thoughts, which would've been inconsistent with the marrano/Jєωιѕн/greek worldview?


    Quote
    As I already said, it is theoretically possible that somebody somewhere disagreed.  We have no reason to think it was significant, considering it left no trace.
    Oh, i'm sure there were many traces left.  Most of which were destroyed and/or left untranslated.  To suggest that the current worldview was never challenged is unfathomable.


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    Offline Tradman

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    Re: Best flat earth proof - celestial navigation
    « Reply #102 on: December 05, 2024, 05:03:15 PM »
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    • Quote from: Jaynek on December 05, 2024, 04:07:31 PM
    I am looking for papal teaching (or even any Catholic round the time of Galileo) explicitly saying that there is anything wrong with believing the earth is a globe.  One cannot assume that globe earth is included if it is not mentioned.

    This does not support your claim that "Galileo fought the Scriptural model which was a flat geocentric earth."  He lived more more than a thousand years after the Hebrew/Babylonian model was "replaced by a Greek scientific cosmology of a spherical Earth surrounded by multiple concentric heavens."  The latter was the cosmology he was opposing with his heliocentric model.  The sphericity of the earth was not a point under contention.

    I agree that some Catholics believed in the Hebrew/Babylonian cosmology in the first centuries of the Church.  It was, however, not a consensus and it was replaced. And it had nothing to do with the issues at the time of Galileo.

    It doesn't seem like I'm able to help.  Keep looking into this subject, there is a lot more to know.  
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Best flat earth proof - celestial navigation
    « Reply #103 on: December 05, 2024, 05:03:28 PM »
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    But math is the basic of science.  The model of earth that you describe has no math.  Please provide some math that works.  That is all I am asking for.
    I tried to have a math discussion with you, but you kept arguing that the North Star moves, which goes against the entire basis for why it can be used as a navigation tool.  And then you were posting sources from google, which is obviously not even geocentric science.  Impossible to discuss with you.
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    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Best flat earth proof - celestial navigation
    « Reply #104 on: December 05, 2024, 05:06:59 PM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on December 05, 2024, 04:55:06 PM
    :facepalm:  The smartest catholics were the French and Spanish, especially the university of Salamanca. 
    1.  Have you read every french and spanish scientific journal of the time?  Or are you just assuming that the masonic-controlled modern science would actually translate theories which would challenge the current, atheistic worldview?

    I have not personally read everything written on cosmology in the middle ages.  But I am not responsible for proving your position.  You are.

    Enemies of the Church would be very pleased to produce works to show that belief in flat earth was common during the middle ages.  They love to portray medieval Catholics as stupid and backward.  If such works cannot be found, it is not because Masons have suppressed them.
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