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Author Topic: Best flat earth proof - celestial navigation  (Read 60951 times)

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Offline Jaynek

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Re: Best flat earth proof - celestial navigation
« Reply #45 on: December 05, 2024, 12:15:33 PM »
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    • Quote from: Meg on December 05, 2024, 11:40:42 AM
    You've never been able to prove that all Catholics believed in a ball earth through the middle ages. Some of the universities taught this, but so what. 

    No flat earther here has produced any evidence of any Catholic who believed in flat earth after Cosmas wrote about it around 550 AD.  In contrast, there is lots of evidence that globe earth was the consensus position in the middle ages.  It is theoretically possible that there were some exceptions somewhere, but no reason, other than wishful thinking, to believe this.

    It is reasonable enough to argue from science for flat earth but it is not reasonable to deny that globe earth was the historic belief of Catholics for most of the existence of the Church.
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    Offline Meg

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    Re: Best flat earth proof - celestial navigation
    « Reply #46 on: December 05, 2024, 12:24:33 PM »
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    • Quote from: Jaynek on December 05, 2024, 12:15:33 PM
    No flat earther here has produced any evidence of any Catholic who believed in flat earth after Cosmas wrote about it around 550 AD.  In contrast, there is lots of evidence that globe earth was the consensus position in the middle ages.  It is theoretically possible that there were some exceptions somewhere, but no reason, other than wishful thinking, to believe this.

    It is reasonable enough to argue from science for flat earth but it is not reasonable to deny that globe earth was the historic belief of Catholics for most of the existence of the Church.

    I do deny it. But I'm not going to try to prove to you otherwise. I'm not a dogmatic FE'er, even though you are a dogmatic ball earther. 

    Didn't you once say that you have a theology degree, from a novus ordo university? 
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Best flat earth proof - celestial navigation
    « Reply #47 on: December 05, 2024, 12:41:33 PM »
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    • Quote from: Tradman on December 05, 2024, 11:54:27 AM

    Would you happen to have the full contextual source of the quote? To see it in context would enable everyone to be assured of his position on the matter.  The fact that he sources Scripture immediately shows he does not believe the earth is a globe. Scripture does not refer to the earth as the orb of the world so that quote is either incorrect, or it is mistranslated. 
    He is presumably alluding to Isaiah 40:22 which in the Vulgate is: " qui sedet super gyrum terrae et habitatores eius sunt quasi lucustae qui extendit velut nihilum caelos et expandit eos sicut tabernaculum ad inhabitandum"

    The Douay-Rheims translates this: "    It is he that sitteth upon the globe of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as locusts: he that stretcheth out the heavens as nothing, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in" but "orb of the world" would also be correct.

    There is some ambiguity about the word gyrum in isolation.  This may be why St. Bede clarified by saying " It is not merely circular like a shield [or] spread out like a wheel, but resembles more a ball, being equally round in all directions ...’
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    Offline MiracleOfTheSun

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    Re: Best flat earth proof - celestial navigation
    « Reply #48 on: December 05, 2024, 12:45:10 PM »
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    • Quote from: Jaynek on December 05, 2024, 10:20:54 AM
    ...since the Church teaches that Scripture is silent on the shape of the earth, it is wrong to argue for it from Scripture and one should only use science?

    Scripture isn't really silent on the shape (or immobility) of the earth.  In Job its shape is described as being squashed (flattened) like under a clay seal.  I'm not a 100% flatter but I can say, the more I look the flatter it gets.

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    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Best flat earth proof - celestial navigation
    « Reply #49 on: December 05, 2024, 12:48:28 PM »
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    • Quote from: Meg on December 05, 2024, 12:24:33 PM
    I do deny it. But I'm not going to try to prove to you otherwise. I'm not a dogmatic FE'er, even though you are a dogmatic ball earther.

    Didn't you once say that you have a theology degree, from a novus ordo university?

    Your first line misrepresents my position, also known as a strawman argument. The second line is an attempt to discredit me as a person, which is called an ad hominem argument.  These are both logical fallacies.  You appear unable to make a logical argument for your position.
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    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Best flat earth proof - celestial navigation
    « Reply #50 on: December 05, 2024, 12:59:44 PM »
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    • Quote from: MiracleOfTheSun on December 05, 2024, 12:45:10 PM
    The Scripture isn't really silent on the shape (or immobility) of the earth. 
    This was taught by both St Augustine and St. Basil.  This was clearly accepted by all the medieval authors who wrote about the earth being a globe, since they would not have wanted to go against Scripture. Later, the St. Augustine passage was quoted by Leo XIII in the encylical Providentissimus Deus.  That makes it Church teaching.  

    I'll provide the quotes later.  I have a baby sleeping on me.  I can manage typing but searches are more difficult.
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    Offline Tradman

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    Re: Best flat earth proof - celestial navigation
    « Reply #51 on: December 05, 2024, 01:12:22 PM »
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    • Quote from: Jaynek on December 05, 2024, 12:15:33 PM

    It is reasonable enough to argue from science for flat earth but it is not reasonable to deny that globe earth was the historic belief of Catholics for most of the existence of the Church.

    Although it's hard to say anything about what percentages of Catholics believed regarding the shape of the earth throughout the centuries, we know beyond argument that the cosmology of the ancient Hebrews was never seriously contradicted until Galileo.  The early Church Fathers addressed concerns in the first 4 centuries and that was it. Naturally, Christendom maintained Hebrew cosmology because it was Scriptural. Although false cosmology was always around, the Church eventually condemned Pythagoreanism along with it's globe in 1633. While the Church seemed to be taking Her time, almost 3 centuries prior, Cecco was burned at the stake for his globe earth cosmology so She was already taking care of business Her way. Pythagoreanism is tracible throughout latter centuries by way of apostates and heretics and their theoretical scientism. That Pythagorean science is widely accepted these days certainly doesn't bode well for Catholics.       

    From Wikipedia
    •Cecco d'Ascoli
    •c. 1269-1327
    •Italian astrologer and mathematician who taught both subjects at the University of Bologna (1322-24). Born Francesco degli Stabili, Cecco taught astrology at a number of institutions around Italy before moving to Bologna. He presented a defense of astrology after Dante Alighieri (1265-1321) attacked it in the Divine Comedy, and accused Dante of heresy; ironically, Cecco himself was burned at the stake as a heretic. His most important writing was an allegorical and encyclopedic poem entitled L'acerba. The “Commentary on the Sphere” was specifically condemned to be burned in 1327 at the same time as Cecco. Cecco also composed a long poem in Italian on the nature of the universe, with a focus on astrology and magic, called l’Acerba. This was also condemned by the Inquisition at the time of his execution.
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    Offline Tradman

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    Re: Best flat earth proof - celestial navigation
    « Reply #52 on: December 05, 2024, 01:24:25 PM »
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    • Quote from: Jaynek on December 05, 2024, 12:41:33 PM
    He is presumably alluding to Isaiah 40:22 which in the Vulgate is: " qui sedet super gyrum terrae et habitatores eius sunt quasi lucustae qui extendit velut nihilum caelos et expandit eos sicut tabernaculum ad inhabitandum"

    The Douay-Rheims translates this: "    It is he that sitteth upon the globe of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as locusts: he that stretcheth out the heavens as nothing, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in" but "orb of the world" would also be correct.

    There is some ambiguity about the word gyrum in isolation.  This may be why St. Bede clarified by saying " It is not merely circular like a shield [or] spread out like a wheel, but resembles more a ball, being equally round in all directions ...’

    You are right that the Douay-Rheims translates gyrum as "globe".  But translations aren't 100%.  All other versions of Scripture translate the word to circle. Orbis also means circle. So, either way, why the Douay was translated to globe is anyone's guess, but we also have the definition of the words and neither translates to globe.   

    gyrus (Latin)
    Origin & history
    From Ancient Greek γῦρος‎
    Pronunciation
    (Classical) IPA: /ˈɡyː.rus/
    Noun
    gȳrus (genitive gȳrī) (masc.)
    circle
    a circular motion
    a circuit, course, ring
    (by extension) place where horses are trained
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    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Best flat earth proof - celestial navigation
    « Reply #53 on: December 05, 2024, 01:24:36 PM »
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    • Quote from: Tradman on December 05, 2024, 01:12:22 PM

    Although it's hard to say anything about what percentages of Catholics believed regarding the shape of the earth throughout the centuries, we know beyond argument that the cosmology of the ancient Hebrews was never seriously contradicted until Galileo.
    No we don't know that.  People knowledgeable about the middle ages know that the Ptolemaic model (globe earth, geocentric) was the consensus of educated Catholics and probably the uneducated too.  This was the model Galileo was arguing against.
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    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Best flat earth proof - celestial navigation
    « Reply #54 on: December 05, 2024, 01:28:07 PM »
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    • Quote from: Tradman on December 05, 2024, 01:24:25 PM

    You are right that the Douay-Rheims translates gyrum as "globe".  But translations aren't 100%. 
    But we do not need to rely on translations to know what St. Bede meant.  He was very clear: "It is not merely circular like a shield [or] spread out like a wheel, but resembles more a ball, being equally round in all directions ...’
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    Offline Gray2023

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    Re: Best flat earth proof - celestial navigation
    « Reply #55 on: December 05, 2024, 01:32:46 PM »
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    • Quote from: Gray2023 on December 04, 2024, 10:47:08 PM
    https://youtu.be/tejB8pFOYD8?si=t8IDbajIkVmrvnHE
    I think this video got lost in the shuffle.   I think he made some good mathematical points.
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    Fatti Maschii, Parole Femine

    Offline Tradman

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    Re: Best flat earth proof - celestial navigation
    « Reply #56 on: December 05, 2024, 01:39:42 PM »
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    • Quote from: Jaynek on December 05, 2024, 01:24:36 PM
    No we don't know that.  People knowledgeable about the middle ages know that the Ptolemaic model (globe earth, geocentric) was the consensus of educated Catholics and probably the uneducated too.  This was the model Galileo was arguing against.
    We have other information to show Galileo fought the Scriptural model which was a flat geocentric earth.  We know this is true because St. Robert Bellarmine makes it clear that they aren't arguing on scientific principles, but Scriptural.  Galileo's model denied the model in Scripture.  
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    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Best flat earth proof - celestial navigation
    « Reply #57 on: December 05, 2024, 01:48:21 PM »
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    • Quote from: Tradman on December 05, 2024, 01:39:42 PM
    We have other information to show Galileo fought the Scriptural model which was a flat geocentric earth.  We know this is true because St. Robert Bellarmine makes it clear that they aren't arguing on scientific principles, but Scriptural.  Galileo's model denied the model in Scripture. 
     
    We do not have any such information.  The condemnation of Galileo said nothing about globe earth.  Tycho Brahe's model, which included a globe earth, was not condemned.  St. Robert himself was a university astronomy professor, which means that he taught globe earth. 

    I suspect that you "know" these things becaue you have relied on anti-Catholic sources.
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    Offline Gray2023

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    Re: Best flat earth proof - celestial navigation
    « Reply #58 on: December 05, 2024, 01:53:22 PM »
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    • Quote from: MiracleOfTheSun on December 05, 2024, 12:45:10 PM
    Scripture isn't really silent on the shape (or immobility) of the earth.  In Job its shape is described as being squashed (flattened) like under a clay seal.  I'm not a 100% flatter but I can say, the more I look the flatter it gets.


    Is all science in the Bible?  The Bible does not talk about cars or airplanes, bombs or guns, fireworks or electricity, viruses or bacteria.  Humans as they progressed through history made discoveries, tried things out, and learned different things.  The Church held its hand per se during these times, it cautioned people, checked to make sure it wasn't against God and continued research and study and invented things that were maybe only dreams centuries before.  This continues today, but with no direction from the Church, so now we have this great diabolic disorientation.  If we are able to discover things of the earth, why not things of the sky?
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    Offline MiracleOfTheSun

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    Re: Best flat earth proof - celestial navigation
    « Reply #59 on: December 05, 2024, 02:02:01 PM »
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    • Quote from: Gray2023 on December 05, 2024, 01:53:22 PM
    If we are able to discover things of the earth, why not things of the sky?

    But we have many times.  Michelson-Morley, Michelson-Gale, Sagnac, Airy, Hubble's red shift showing we occupy pretty much dead center in the universe, the Cosmic Microwave Background on three occasions (which produced 'the Axis of Evil' also showing we occupy the center of the universe).  These tests have been repeated numerous times all with the same result - no movement of the earth.  The bible also happens to state this. 

    What's really amazing is how 'science' got around the MM experiments - the machine had to be physically shrinking (yep) at just the exact rate to make it show the earth wasn't moving.  Amazing indeed.  Einstein popped out Relativity and the rest is history. 
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