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Author Topic: Best flat earth proof - celestial navigation  (Read 60945 times)

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Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: Best flat earth proof - celestial navigation
« Reply #120 on: December 06, 2024, 09:02:17 AM »
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    Show me the corners of a snow globe.
    "...blessed are they that have not seen, and have believed."  (John 20:29)

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Best flat earth proof - celestial navigation
    « Reply #121 on: December 06, 2024, 09:15:40 AM »
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  • The fact is, St Thomas’ globe model had a firmament.  As did St Bedes’.  Because they believed in Scripture and their model flowed from scripture as its origin.

    Your snowglobe is the fairytale.  St. Thomas, St. Bede, and also the medieval university textbooks, taught globe earth along with proofs for that position.  The were the same proofs used for the Greek concentric sphere model and do not make any sense with your alleged "scriptural" model.  They gave detailed descriptions of what they were talking about.  Sphere means sphere.  St. Thomas describes various meanings of "firmament" that he holds as compatible with Scripture in the Summa: https://www.newadvent.org/summa/1068.htm.  These include a firmament which is a sphere and in which were placed the stars, a sphere which encompassed the spherical earth, like in the Greek model.  Accepting the existence of a firmament does not necessarily lead to belief in flat earth and it did not in the case of St. Thomas.

    Doctors of the Church, St. Thomas and St. Bede, accepted the teaching of the Church Fathers, St. Augustine and St. Basil, that Scripture is silent on the shape of the earth.  They turned to Greek science for the answer to that question.  And we know they were right to do so because Pope Leo later taught this in an encyclical.  He even included St. Basil's point that Scripture that appears to speak of the earth having a shape should be understood figuratively. This is magisterial teaching.  (Which you are apparently disobeying.)

    You can pretend that I am being a modernist and a feminist, but it is clear that I am following the teaching of Fathers, Doctors and Popes.  And do you claim that all the many trads who believe in spherical earth geocentrism are modernists?  This is a position that appeals to trads because it is the traditional Catholic position, not because trads are modernists.  Your position is indefensible with logic and so you turn to personal attacks.  You lack evidence and sound arguments and so you insult me.  None of this convinces people who are sincerely seeking Catholic truth.


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Best flat earth proof - celestial navigation
    « Reply #122 on: December 06, 2024, 09:31:55 AM »
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    Accepting the existence of a firmament does not necessarily lead to belief in flat earth and it did not in the case of St. Thomas.
    This is not my argument.  My point is, there is no current "working model" of a geocentric, globe earth which lines up with Scripture.  Modern science's version of either helio or geocentrism is at odds with Scripture.  So the point being, we catholics don't have a working model of the solar system or of the earth. 

    You guys can complain about FE's lack of proofs all you want, but the same complaints apply to globeism.  If you want to say, "I believe in St Bede/St Thomas' globe model"...ok, fine.  But modern science laughs at St Thomas, the same as FE.  Modern Science's "story" of the cosmos and the earth's map does not line up with either FE or St Thomas.

    Those who want to pretend that there is a globe model which lines up with both Scripture and Modern Science are deluded.  Most of modern science's "proofs" are lies and meant to undercut the Church's history and Scripture.  Modern science isn't a friend to catholics, either FE or globe.  It's only a friend to heliocentrism/satanism.

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Best flat earth proof - celestial navigation
    « Reply #123 on: December 06, 2024, 09:49:45 AM »
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  •  If you want to say, "I believe in St Bede/St Thomas' globe model"...ok, fine.  But modern science laughs at St Thomas, the same as FE.  Modern Science's "story" of the cosmos and the earth's map does not line up with either FE or St Thomas.

    I came across an article fairly recently by a secular science professor who was saying that geocentrism is compatible with the theory of relativity.  Unfortunately I can't find it again and don't know enough about modern science to evaluate it.  As I recall, Robert Sugenis made a similar argument.  I've never looked into it (not interested in this aspect) so I can't say much about it.  But I have the impression this line of reasoning could be developed by someone with enough expertise.  


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Best flat earth proof - celestial navigation
    « Reply #124 on: December 06, 2024, 09:54:12 AM »
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  • Even if the theory of relativity lines up, there's 3,000 other modern science "facts" which don't.  Modern science says that a globe/geocentric earth spins.  Scripture says the earth is fixed.  Modern science shows no firmament in any model.  Scripture says there is.  2 simple scriptural facts = 2 modern science failures.  ...There is no catholic, working model of the cosmos.


    Offline Meg

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    Re: Best flat earth proof - celestial navigation
    « Reply #125 on: December 06, 2024, 09:56:29 AM »
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  • And we know they were right to do so because Pope Leo later taught this in an encyclical.  He even included St. Basil's point that Scripture that appears to speak of the earth having a shape should be understood figuratively. This is magisterial teaching.  (Which you are apparently disobeying.)

    I was wondering when you were going to being up Pope Leo's encyclical, and claim that we are being disobedient. When all else fails, you bring this up. A woman who has a degree from a Modernist "university" believes that we are being disobedient. Why would a woman even want a degree in theology, unless it is to teach and have control over men? 
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Best flat earth proof - celestial navigation
    « Reply #126 on: December 06, 2024, 10:00:58 AM »
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  • Even if the theory of relativity lines up, there's 3,000 other modern science "facts" which don't.  Modern science says that a globe/geocentric earth spins.  Scripture says the earth is fixed.  Modern science shows no firmament in any model.  Scripture says there is.  2 simple scriptural facts = 2 modern science failures.  ...There is no catholic, working model of the cosmos.

    I think determining what constitutes "scriptural facts" should be left to experts who know how to apply Providentissimus Deus.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Best flat earth proof - celestial navigation
    « Reply #127 on: December 06, 2024, 10:06:14 AM »
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    I think determining what constitutes "scriptural facts" should be left to experts who know how to apply Providentissimus Deus.
    :jester:  Scripture is to be interpreted literally, as a rule.  In exceptions, the Church has told us that certain passages are symbolic.  But the vast majority of Scripture is to be taken literally.  In absence of any Church commentary, then the passage is literal.

    Modernists want to spread the lie that Scripture is more symbolic/allegorical than it is. 


    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Best flat earth proof - celestial navigation
    « Reply #128 on: December 06, 2024, 10:12:10 AM »
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  • Why would a woman even want a degree in theology, unless it is to teach and have control over men?

    I didn't want a degree in theology.  My husband is a brilliant man who looks for intellectual companionship in his wife.  He thought it would be good for us to take theology courses together.  After many years  of part-time courses I eventually accuмulated enough to end up with a degree.  This all happened long before I knew anything about traditional Catholicism or why there could be problems with Novus Ordo theology.  I was very happy to go along with my husband's wishes and thought the courses were fun.

    But my education is irrelevant to the sources I am quoting.  Pope Leo wrote what he wrote, no matter who quotes it.

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Best flat earth proof - celestial navigation
    « Reply #129 on: December 06, 2024, 10:17:44 AM »
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  • :jester:  Scripture is to be interpreted literally, as a rule.  In exceptions, the Church has told us that certain passages are symbolic.  But the vast majority of Scripture is to be taken literally.  In absence of any Church commentary, then the passage is literal.
    In this case, however, there is Church commentary.  Pope Leo wrote "they [the inspired authors of Scripture] did not seek to penetrate the secrets of nature, but rather described and dealt with things in more or less figurative language, or in terms which were commonly used at the time..."


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Best flat earth proof - celestial navigation
    « Reply #130 on: December 06, 2024, 10:24:26 AM »
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    They turned to Greek science for the answer to that question.  And we know they were right to do so because Pope Leo later taught this in an encyclical. 
    Pope Leo, as with many other popes, said that science cannot contradict Faith.  They were supporting the use of science in its proper role - to help explain the Faith.  

    If someone uses science to contradict Scripture, they are a heretic...or worse.


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Best flat earth proof - celestial navigation
    « Reply #131 on: December 06, 2024, 10:27:08 AM »
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    Pope Leo wrote "they [the inspired authors of Scripture] did not seek to penetrate the secrets of nature, but rather described and dealt with things in more or less figurative language, or in terms which were commonly used at the time..."
    So you're saying that EVERY instance in Scripture where something natural is described, then it's figurative.  :facepalm:  That's not what Pope Leo meant.  

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Best flat earth proof - celestial navigation
    « Reply #132 on: December 06, 2024, 10:29:06 AM »
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  • If someone uses science to contradict Scripture, they are a heretic...or worse.

    If someone uses science to contradict Scipture as interpretted by the Church, they are a heretic.   We have no obligation to accept non-authoritative interpretations of Scripture.  When we suspect that an interpretation contradicts Church teaching, our obligation is to reject it.

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Best flat earth proof - celestial navigation
    « Reply #133 on: December 06, 2024, 10:33:43 AM »
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  • So you're saying that EVERY instance in Scripture where something natural is described, then it's figurative.  :facepalm:  That's not what Pope Leo meant. 

    Of course not.  For specific applications we turn to the Church.  The Pontifical Biblical Commission under Pope Pius X wrote a lot on this subject.  (This PBC was not like the current body carrying that name, but actually worked with the pope to ensure orthodox interpretation of Scripture.)

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Best flat earth proof - celestial navigation
    « Reply #134 on: December 06, 2024, 10:38:01 AM »
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    We have no obligation to accept non-authoritative interpretations of Scripture.
    The Church has not, nor has ever attempted to, nor ever will...issue an authoritative interpretation on EVERY. single. passage. in Scripture. 

    That's why She says that, in the ABSENCE of Her authoritative interpretation, that Scripture is to be taken literally.  That's the default.

    St. Thomas Aquinas’s adage that “all other senses of Sacred Scripture are based on the literal.”

    You're arguing the modernist view, that "Well, the Church hasn't given an authoritative interpretation, so I can interpret it myself."  Errrr....wrong.