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Author Topic: Are Globers Catholic?  (Read 11807 times)

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Offline Jaynek

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Re: Are Globers Catholic?
« Reply #75 on: May 02, 2018, 09:01:55 PM »
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  • Now now, this is disingenuous.  We all know that this rendition is not the oldest version of PD and is inaccurate...
    No, since it is not true, we do not all know it.  You and perhaps a few others imagine it.  

    Offline aryzia

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    Re: Are Globers Catholic?
    « Reply #76 on: May 02, 2018, 09:13:29 PM »
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  • No, since it is not true, we do not all know it.  You and perhaps a few others imagine it.  
    It was made clear in earlier threads that four different versions of PD had surfaced. Only when the oldest version was quoted did it become obvious translators had been at it, putting in additions. But that wasn't the whole point of that post. No one claims Scripture is a science book, yet PD encourages students who stay true to the literal interpretation of Scripture to defend truth, even beyond the Fathers.


    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Are Globers Catholic?
    « Reply #77 on: May 03, 2018, 11:17:09 AM »
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  • It was made clear in earlier threads that four different versions of PD had surfaced. Only when the oldest version was quoted did it become obvious translators had been at it, putting in additions. 
    While such an accusation was made, it became clear that the person making it did not understand what he was talking about.  There has been no credible evidence presented that PD was ever mistranslated or subjected to textual insertions.  

    Offline Truth is Eternal

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    Re: Are Globers Catholic?
    « Reply #78 on: May 03, 2018, 11:52:16 AM »
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  • Offline aryzia

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    Re: Are Globers Catholic?
    « Reply #79 on: May 03, 2018, 01:35:47 PM »
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  • While such an accusation was made, it became clear that the person making it did not understand what he was talking about.  There has been no credible evidence presented that PD was ever mistranslated or subjected to textual insertions.  
    It was evident in the different texts of PD. Besides PD encourages students holding the literal sense of Scripture to support or even further  expound on the opinions of the Fathers who did the same. Your argument is with PD now.


    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Are Globers Catholic?
    « Reply #80 on: May 03, 2018, 02:25:51 PM »
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  • It was evident in the different texts of PD. Besides PD encourages students holding the literal sense of Scripture to support or even further  expound on the opinions of the Fathers who did the same. Your argument is with PD now.
    It was evident that people who thought there were significantly different texts of PD had poor reading comprehension.  This difficulty with reading also accounts for your total misunderstanding of Providentissimus Deus.  You practically have it saying the opposite of what it really teaches.  Even when people explain it to you, you do not understand.
    I recommend that anyone objectively interested the contents of this encyclical read it for himself.  

    Here is the same quote I gave earlier in the thread from the translation that flat earthers claimed was more accurate than the one I used from the Vatican website:
    ...the sacred writers or more truly “the Spirit of God, who spoke 
    through them, did not wish to teach men these things (namely, the
    innermost constitution of the visible universe) as being of no profit to
    salvation”; that, therefore, they do not carry an explanation of nature
    scientifically, but rather sometimes describe and treat the facts themselves,
    either in a figurative manner, or in the common language of their times...

    https://archive.org/stream/DenzingerSourcesOfCatholicDogma/Denzinger%20-%20Sources%20of%20Catholic%20Dogma_djvu.txt

    And here is the same passage in Latin:

    Quote
    ...scriptores sacros, seu verius « Spiritum Dei, qui per ipsos loquebatur, noluisse ista (videlicet intimam adspectabilium rerum constitutionem) docere homines, nulli saluti profutura »; quare eos, potius quam explorationem naturae recta persequantur, res ipsas aliquando describere et tractare aut quodam translationis modo, aut sicut communis sermo per ea ferebat tempora... 
    http://w2.vatican.va/content/leo-xiii/la/encyclicals/docuмents/hf_l-xiii_enc_18111893_providentissimus-deus.html

    There is obviously nothing wrong with the quote as I originally cited it.

    Offline happenby

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    Re: Are Globers Catholic?
    « Reply #81 on: May 03, 2018, 02:52:29 PM »
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  • It was evident that people who thought there were significantly different texts of PD had poor reading comprehension.  This difficulty with reading also accounts for your total misunderstanding of Providentissimus Deus.  You practically have it saying the opposite of what it really teaches.  Even when people explain it to you, you do not understand.
    I recommend that anyone objectively interested the contents of this encyclical read it for himself.  

    Here is the same quote I gave earlier in the thread from the translation that flat earthers claimed was more accurate than the one I used from the Vatican website:
    ...the sacred writers or more truly “the Spirit of God, who spoke 
    through them, did not wish to teach men these things (namely, the
    innermost constitution of the visible universe) as being of no profit to
    salvation”; that, therefore, they do not carry an explanation of nature
    scientifically, but rather sometimes describe and treat the facts themselves,
    either in a figurative manner, or in the common language of their times...

    https://archive.org/stream/DenzingerSourcesOfCatholicDogma/Denzinger%20-%20Sources%20of%20Catholic%20Dogma_djvu.txt

    And here is the same passage in Latin:
    http://w2.vatican.va/content/leo-xiii/la/encyclicals/docuмents/hf_l-xiii_enc_18111893_providentissimus-deus.html

    There is obviously nothing wrong with the quote as I originally cited it.
    You've been shown the word "things" was added in some translations.  Martin Luther comes to mind here. The addition of the word "things" manages to  negate the layout of the sentence.  How? PD says parenthetically,  "...Did NOT wish to teach men these things as being of NO profit"... which means these things are of profit, because "not" and "no" cancel each other out to make the sentence read positive.  However, when the word "things" is duplicated after the parentheses, it suggests that these "things" are of no profit to salvation by adding another "things"  So it says, after the parentheses, "things of no profit to salvation". This is not only counter intuitive grammatically speaking, and those who added "things" get an F in grammar and deserve an expulsion for tampering, but it also denies the remaining portions of PD and relegates Scripture's more scientific aspects of geography and creation to the trash bin.  Not a healthy view by any standards. Especially since Scripture is soooo descriptive about the form of the earth and since the Fathers expounded on this.  It is for this reason that the average joe ought not tread where he has no understanding, at least until he has understanding. No doubt this level of exegeses will fly over you like a kite on a windy day, not because you haven't the intellect, but because your intellect is blocked.  Yet this is what PD is saying, proven by the quotes I added from PD (above).  So my comments are here for the record, for those Catholics who are reading and want to know.     

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Are Globers Catholic?
    « Reply #82 on: May 03, 2018, 03:37:38 PM »
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  • You've been shown the word "things" was added in some translations.  Martin Luther comes to mind here. The addition of the word "things" manages to  negate the layout of the sentence.  How? PD says parenthetically,  "...Did NOT wish to teach men these things as being of NO profit"... which means these things are of profit, because "not" and "no" cancel each other out to make the sentence read positive.  However, when the word "things" is duplicated after the parentheses, it suggests that these "things" are of no profit to salvation by adding another "things"  So it says, after the parentheses, "things of no profit to salvation". This is not only counter intuitive grammatically speaking, and those who added "things" get an F in grammar and deserve an expulsion for tampering, but it also denies the remaining portions of PD and relegates Scripture's more scientific aspects of geography and creation to the trash bin.  Not a healthy view by any standards. Especially since Scripture is soooo descriptive about the form of the earth and since the Fathers expounded on this.  It is for this reason that the average joe ought not tread where he has no understanding, at least until he has understanding. No doubt this level of exegeses will fly over you like a kite on a windy day, not because you haven't the intellect, but because your intellect is blocked.  Yet this is what PD is saying, proven by the quotes I added from PD (above).  So my comments are here for the record, for those Catholics who are reading and want to know.    
    Using the word "things" is an optional but legitimate way to translate that construction and does not change the meaning.  Rather it makes the meaning clearer.

    It is possible in your preferred English translation to misunderstand "no" and "not" as cancelling each other out.  It is not possible to understand the original Latin in such a way.  The phrase nulli saluti profitura "of no profit for salvation" clearly modifies illa "these things".  It is unambiguously saying that things concerning the innermost constitution of the universe are not profitable for salvation. It also unambiguously says that the Holy Spirit does not wish to teach these things. The translation I quoted conveyed this meaning more clearly.  It did not tamper with the meaning at all.

    This correct understanding of the quote does not deny anything else in PD when it is properly understood.  As I have said, you do not understand the encyclical.  Your quotes do not say what you think they do.


    Offline aryzia

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    Re: Are Globers Catholic?
    « Reply #83 on: May 03, 2018, 04:04:05 PM »
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  • Using the word "things" is an optional but legitimate way to translate that construction and does not change the meaning.  Rather it makes the meaning clearer.

    It is possible in your preferred English translation to misunderstand "no" and "not" as cancelling each other out.  It is not possible to understand the original Latin in such a way.  The phrase nulli saluti profitura "of no profit for salvation" clearly modifies illa "these things".  It is unambiguously saying that things concerning the innermost constitution of the universe are not profitable for salvation. It also unambiguously says that the Holy Spirit does not wish to teach these things. The translation I quoted conveyed this meaning more clearly.  It did not tamper with the meaning at all.

    This correct understanding of the quote does not deny anything else in PD when it is properly understood.  As I have said, you do not understand the encyclical.  Your quotes do not say what you think they do.
    Clearly the quotes do say what they say. And your suggestion that PD intends to prevent the use of Scripture in the literal sense for what the Fathers have already opined about the form of the earth is destroyed. From the grammar to the words themselves.  You're right, happenby, this woman is blocked.

    Offline happenby

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    Re: Are Globers Catholic?
    « Reply #84 on: May 03, 2018, 04:18:43 PM »
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  • Indeed.  And notice poor Ms. Jaynek never addresses the other particulars, let alone the totality of PD, which clearly indicates that the Church invites those who respect and hold to the literal meaning of Scripture to expound on the teachings of the Fathers. :cheers:  

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Are Globers Catholic?
    « Reply #85 on: May 03, 2018, 04:24:56 PM »
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  • Clearly the quotes do say what they say. And your suggestion that PD intends to prevent the use of Scripture in the literal sense for what the Fathers have already opined about the form of the earth is destroyed. From the grammar to the words themselves.  You're right, happenby, this woman is blocked.
    The Fathers disagreed about the form of the earth.  Only in later times did Catholics reach a consensus - that the earth is a sphere.  Providentissimus Deus shows that some Fathers (and virtually all later Catholics) were correct to not take literally figurative language that might suggest a flat earth.

    Flat earth is not a Catholic position.  One cannot make a claim that it is Catholic merely because some Fathers believed in it.  Genuine Catholic views persist throughout time. Belief in flat earth did not persist.

    Some, but not all, Fathers accepted it and then the idea disappeared for over a thousand years.  Then it was revived by Fundamentalist heretics.  It primarily gained acceptance among heretics and neopagans.  Does that sound like a Catholic idea?  Is there any Catholic belief with such a history?


    Offline happenby

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    Re: Are Globers Catholic?
    « Reply #86 on: May 03, 2018, 04:45:19 PM »
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  • The Fathers disagreed about the form of the earth.  Only in later times did Catholics reach a consensus - that the earth is a sphere.  Providentissimus Deus shows that some Fathers (and virtually all later Catholics) were correct to not take literally figurative language that might suggest a flat earth.

    Flat earth is not a Catholic position.  One cannot make a claim that it is Catholic merely because some Fathers believed in it.  Genuine Catholic views persist throughout time. Belief in flat earth did not persist.

    Some, but not all, Fathers accepted it and then the idea disappeared for over a thousand years.  Then it was revived by Fundamentalist heretics.  It primarily gained acceptance among heretics and neopagans.  Does that sound like a Catholic idea?  Is there any Catholic belief with such a history?
    There is something called belief, and another called teaching. Some Fathers believed earth to be a globe.  Without question however, no Father taught earth is a globe.  Several Fathers taught flat earth with incredible insight and argumentation against the globe.  That is a consensus.  What a Father personally thinks is subject to error, but when the Fathers who taught flat earth never were in contradiction to each other on that subject, AND when the Fathers who taught flat earth were faithful to the literal sense of Scripture, not to mention expounding on the liturgy, the tabernacle, actual physical churches, the doctrine of Jerusalem as center of earth, defending against the antipodes, etc. we have consensus.  There is nothing left of the pagan Copernican Doctrine so hated by Popes and saints. The Church supports flat earth.  Scripture supports flat earth. The Fathers support flat earth.  Particular teachings support flat earth, including PD, which defends the literal sense of Scripture exegeses in these matters.  The Church's condemnations support flat earth.  Reason supports flat earth.  Science supports flat earth.  Math supports flat earth.  Catholics ought to support flat earth, or at least get the information necessary to understand it with consideration in light of all these green lights.  Stop holding to obscure pagan notions in the name of popularity.  You have nothing in your court except people's common belief in pagan science.  

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Are Globers Catholic?
    « Reply #87 on: May 03, 2018, 06:03:24 PM »
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  • There is something called belief, and another called teaching. Some Fathers believed earth to be a globe.  Without question however, no Father taught earth is a globe.  Several Fathers taught flat earth with incredible insight and argumentation against the globe.  That is a consensus.  

    No, that is not what the word "consensus" means.  The definition is "an idea or opinion that is shared by all the people in a group."  It has nothing to do with teaching as opposed to belief. (Also, your claim is false that no Father taught earth is a globe.)  You admit that some Fathers believed the earth is a globe.  It follows, if one uses standard definitions for words, that there was no consensus.

    The Church supports flat earth.  Scripture supports flat earth. The Fathers support flat earth.  Particular teachings support flat earth, including PD, which defends the literal sense of Scripture exegeses in these matters.  The Church's condemnations support flat earth.  Reason supports flat earth.  Science supports flat earth.  Math supports flat earth.  Catholics ought to support flat earth, or at least get the information necessary to understand it with consideration in light of all these green lights.  Stop holding to obscure pagan notions in the name of popularity.  You have nothing in your court except people's common belief in pagan science.  

    False, false, false, and again false.  The Church does not support flat earth, although I suppose you might be making up your own special definitions again.  Nor does Scripture, as traditionally understood by most Catholics throughout history, support flat earth.  Magisterial teaching supports the non-literal interpretation of your proof verses. The Church's condemnation of heliocentrism in no way even hints at any problems with spherical earth which had long been part of the geocentric model accepted and promoted by Catholics and Catholic institutions.

    The modern revival of the idea of flat earth is a primarily a movement of heretics and pagans.  There is no reason for Catholics to have anything to do with them.

    Offline Truth is Eternal

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    Re: Are Globers Catholic?
    « Reply #88 on: May 03, 2018, 06:23:08 PM »
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  • No, that is not what the word "consensus" means.  The definition is "an idea or opinion that is shared by all the people in a group."  It has nothing to do with teaching as opposed to belief. (Also, your claim is false that no Father taught earth is a globe.)  You admit that some Fathers believed the earth is a globe.  It follows, if one uses standard definitions for words, that there was no consensus.

    False, false, false, and again false.  The Church does not support flat earth, although I suppose you might be making up your own special definitions again.  Nor does Scripture, as traditionally understood by most Catholics throughout history, support flat earth.  Magisterial teaching supports the non-literal interpretation of your proof verses. The Church's condemnation of heliocentrism in no way even hints at any problems with spherical earth which had long been part of the geocentric model accepted and promoted by Catholics and Catholic institutions.

    The modern revival of the idea of flat earth is a primarily a movement of heretics and pagans.  There is no reason for Catholics to have anything to do with them.
    The horizon always appears perfectly flat 360 degrees around the observer regardless of altitude. All amateur balloon, rocket, plane and drone footage show a completely flat horizon over 20+ miles high. Only NASA and other government "space agencies" show curvature in their fake CGI photos/videos.

    The horizon always rises to the eye level of the observer as altitude is gained, so you never have to look down to see it. If Earth were in fact a globe, no matter how large, as you ascended the horizon would stay fixed and the observer / camera would have to tilt looking down further and further to see it.

    The natural physics of water is to find and maintain its level. If Earth were a giant sphere tilted, wobbling and hurdling through infinite space then truly flat, consistently level surfaces would not exist here. But since Earth is in fact an extended flat plane, this fundamental physical property of fluids finding and remaining level is consistent with experience and common sense.

    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: Are Globers Catholic?
    « Reply #89 on: May 04, 2018, 04:10:31 AM »
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  • .
    There is no evidence, neither scientific nor theological for your dreamland flat-earthism. 
    Your Shangri-la fantasy-land is just a silly dream that never comes true.
    Or, rather, is it your false-god golden-calf fantasy-land? Hmmmm? 
    .--. .-.-.- ... .-.-.- ..-. --- .-. - .... . -.- .. -. --. -.. --- -- --..-- - .... . .--. --- .-- . .-. .- -. -.. -....- -....- .--- ..- ... - -.- .. -.. -.. .. -. --. .-.-.