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Author Topic: Are Globers Catholic?  (Read 5805 times)

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Offline happenby

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Re: Are Globers Catholic?
« Reply #15 on: April 26, 2018, 11:32:09 AM »
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  • In the Ptolemaic system, the earth is a sphere which is the center of a system of concentric spheres holding various heavenly bodies.  In the Tychonic system, the earth is also a sphere (because everybody believed the earth was a sphere) with a sphere around it holding the sun, while some other heavenly bodies are in spheres centered on the sun.

    The quote above does not refer to the sphericity of the earth, but, as it plainly says, to "spheres in the heavens".  Brahe was saying that the spheres which hold heavenly bodies are not physical objects but mathematical constructs to understand their movement.

    St. Bede, back around 800 AD, gave proofs to show that the earth is a sphere in reality and that has been the dominant belief among Catholics since that time at least.

    There is nothing in the Brahe quote to indicate that the condemnation of heliocentrism should be understood to include a spherical earth.
    Here we go again.  If earth is a 'sphere', then it would have to be one of the 'spheres' imagined.  With Jerusalem taught to be at the center of earth courtesy of a consensus of saint's writings based on Scripture, and the rejection of the anti-podes for more than a thousand years, not to mention the absurdity of people and things sticking to the outside of a sphere prior to the invention of gravity by Newton, a man born after the Galileo Affair, your premise doesn't fly.  Turns out gravity fails too, but how fascinating it showed up just in time to save Galileo's false science.  


    Offline happenby

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    Re: Are Globers Catholic?
    « Reply #16 on: April 26, 2018, 11:34:17 AM »
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  • St. Augustine argued against the notion of people living on the other side of the earth (such people are often referred to antipodes).  His argument did not destroy the notion that the earth is a sphere.
    Australians are on the other side of the theoretical spherical earth and walk with their feet opposite of those on opposite land masses.  Hence the term anti-podes.  Condemned. 


    Offline happenby

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    Re: Are Globers Catholic?
    « Reply #17 on: April 26, 2018, 11:42:49 AM »
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  • Few astronomers were convinced that the earth orbited the sun.  This is not surprising, since neither Copernicus nor Galileo made a compelling case for that view.

    It was however widely accepted that the earth was a globe because that belief existed independently of the Copernican system.  It was widely accepted because it was taught at universities (which were Catholic institutions throughout the middle ages). There were books, although not as common before the invention of the printing press, and copies exist of the medieval university texts which taught the earth is a globe. Being educated was practically synonymous with believing the earth was a globe.  

    The highest levels of the Church hierarchy would mostly have had this sort of education.
    Please.  The globe was ALWAYS part of the Copernican system.  But not always part of the Geocentric system.  Extremely ancient drawings of flat earth from every corner and people of the earth prior to Galileo prove the ancients believed earth was flat.  Wikipedia favors the heliocentric globe and still admits all nations of antiquity, that is prior to Copernicus, were flat earthers.  That is, until it was all polluted by the Revolution.  The term "Copernican Revolution" is quite telling because it shows that a 'revolution' (pun) took place in the minds of people who once believed one thing, but now believe another.  

    Offline forlorn

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    Re: Are Globers Catholic?
    « Reply #18 on: April 26, 2018, 11:44:10 AM »
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  • They were not spherical geocentrists.  Tycho Brahe admittedly only used the "spheres" for mathematical purposes prior to the Church's condemnations.  The Church didn't condemn the sphere specifically because it wasn't widely accepted.  Also, the absurdity that people walked around upside down from each other on a sphere preceded itself and canceled the need.  St. Augustine destroyed the notion a sphere in rejecting the notion of the anti-podes.  It remains Catholic teaching that Jerusalem sits in the center of the earth.  If earth were a ball, Jerusalem would have to been where they say hell is.  
    And yet St. Bellarmine never condemned Galileo for his belief in a globe, or even mentioned it. St. Bellarmine also referred to the Church's belief in epicycles, which only existed in the Ptolemaic system. 

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Are Globers Catholic?
    « Reply #19 on: April 26, 2018, 11:44:56 AM »
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  • Here is what St. Augustine actually wrote about antipodes:


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    As to the fable that there are Antipodes, that is to say, men on the opposite side of the earth, where the sun rises when it sets on us, men who walk with their feet opposite ours, there is no reason for believing it. Those who affirm it do not claim to possess any actual information; they merely conjecture that, since the earth is suspended within the concavity of the heavens, and there is as much room on the one side of it as on the other, therefore the part which is beneath cannot be void of human inhabitants. They fail to notice that, even should it be believed or demonstrated that the world is round or spherical in form, it does not follow that the part of the earth opposite to us is not completely covered with water, or that any conjectured dry land there should be inhabited by men. For Scripture, which confirms the truth of its historical statements by the accomplishment of its prophecies, teaches not falsehood; and it is too absurd to say that some men might have set sail from this side and, traversing the immense expanse of ocean, have propagated there a race of human beings descended from that one first man."
    Note that he explicitly allows for the possibility that the earth is a sphere.  Nor does he condemn the belief in antipodian people; he merely says there is no good reason to believe they exist.  It seems likely that he would consider the discovery of people in Australia a good reason.

    As it turns out, even secular science would claim that the aboriginal people in Australia descended from the same human stock as Europeans, although they would not put it in terms of Adam and Eve as we would.


    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Are Globers Catholic?
    « Reply #20 on: April 26, 2018, 11:50:04 AM »
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  • Please.  The globe was ALWAYS part of the Copernican system.  But not always part of the Geocentric system.  Extremely ancient drawings of flat earth from every corner and people of the earth prior to Galileo prove the ancients believed earth was flat.  Wikipedia favors the heliocentric globe and still admits all nations of antiquity, that is prior to Copernicus, were flat earthers.  That is, until it was all polluted by the Revolution.  The term "Copernican Revolution" is quite telling because it shows that a 'revolution' (pun) took place in the minds of people who once believed one thing, but now believe another.  
    Wikipedia says no such thing.  You cannot give a quote of it saying that everyone prior to Copernicus was a flat earther.

    Yes, many ancient people believed in a flat earth but Aristotle and Ptolemy were highly influential teachers of spherical earth. This belief dominated the West for most of the time since Christ.

    Offline happenby

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    Re: Are Globers Catholic?
    « Reply #21 on: April 26, 2018, 12:11:45 PM »
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  • Wikipedia says no such thing.  You cannot give a quote of it saying that everyone prior to Copernicus was a flat earther.

    Yes, many ancient people believed in a flat earth but Aristotle and Ptolemy were highly influential teachers of spherical earth. This belief dominated the West for most of the time since Christ.
    That's not quite what I said.  Wiki says most ancients were flat earthers and the multitude of drawings and maps proving that are readily available on Wiki and the Internet.  Aristotle and Ptolemy are just two guys out of billions.  Without the benefit of media, its doubtful their notions were of much benefit to most people living between BC and the 1600's.  Ultimately, after the Galileo Affair attesting to the contrary, the notion caught on because they were also guys respected for other things.  Despite the acceptance of the Pythagorean doctrine and Copernican Revolution they started, they have been contested along the way by many Catholics and even a fair number of Protestants.  It took centuries, but indeed, their pagan doctrine is now fully espoused by a largely pagan world who's leaders are known as globalists, Freemasons, Communists, etc.  How apropos.      

    Offline forlorn

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    Re: Are Globers Catholic?
    « Reply #22 on: April 26, 2018, 12:28:34 PM »
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  • That's not quite what I said.  Wiki says most ancients were flat earthers and the multitude of drawings and maps proving that are readily available on Wiki and the Internet.  Aristotle and Ptolemy are just two guys out of billions.  Without the benefit of media, its doubtful their notions were of much benefit to most people living between BC and the 1600's.  Ultimately, after the Galileo Affair attesting to the contrary, the notion caught on because they were also guys respected for other things.  Despite the acceptance of the Pythagorean doctrine and Copernican Revolution they started, they have been contested along the way by many Catholics and even a fair number of Protestants.  It took centuries, but indeed, their pagan doctrine is now fully espoused by a largely pagan world who's leaders are known as globalists, Freemasons, Communists, etc.  How apropos.      
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myth_of_the_flat_Earth

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flat_Earth

    Wrong. Most of the Greeks accepted a spherical earth by 300 BC, and it quickly spread to Rome and the rest of Europe and the Near-East. By 1000 AD, belief in a sphere Earth was universal among the educated(read: the clergy and the nobility).

    If they believed in a flat earth, then explain to me why priests such as Gautier de Metz were never condemned:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gautier_de_Metz

    Saint Thomas also believed in a spherical earth and assumed the reader did too, remarking on how all the different types of professionals and educated had their own ways of observing the roundness of the earth. In Summa Theologiae he wrote: "The physicist proves the earth to be round by one means, the astronomer by another: for the latter proves this by means of mathematics, e. g. by the shapes of eclipses, or something of the sort; while the former proves it by means of physics, e. g. by the movement of heavy bodies towards the center, and so forth."

    Blessed(or St. if you're NO) Hildegaard also believed in a spherical earth, and again did not present it as a novel idea or cutting edge science, but as well-accepted fact:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hildegard_of_Bingen
    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/78/Hildegard_von_Bingen-_%27Werk_Gottes%27%2C_12._Jh..jpg/220px-Hildegard_von_Bingen-_%27Werk_Gottes%27%2C_12._Jh..jpg


    And last, but certainly not least, medieval Europe's foremost astronomical textbook:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_sphaera_mundi
    This book(written by a Catholic monk btw) which taught a SPHERICAL EARTH was made in 1230 and was used as a textbook in universities(which were, again, run by Catholic monks) for hundreds of years.


    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Are Globers Catholic?
    « Reply #23 on: April 26, 2018, 12:31:50 PM »
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  • That's not quite what I said.  Wiki says most ancients were flat earthers and the multitude of drawings and maps proving that are readily available on Wiki and the Internet.  
    Your exact words were:
      Wikipedia favors the heliocentric globe and still admits all nations of antiquity, that is prior to Copernicus, were flat earthers.  That is, until it was all polluted by the Revolution. 

    Wikipedia does not say what you claim. The article may be seen at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spherical_Earth  It says that spherical earth was adopted long before Copernicus:

    Quote
    The earliest reliably docuмented mention of the spherical Earth concept dates from around the 6th century BC when it appeared in ancient Greek philosophy[1][2] but remained a matter of speculation until the 3rd century BC, when Hellenistic astronomy established the spherical shape of the Earth as a physical given. The paradigm was gradually adopted throughout the Old World during Late Antiquity and the Middle Ages.[3][4][5][6] A practical demonstration of Earth's sphericity was achieved by Ferdinand Magellan and Juan Sebastián Elcano's expedition's circuмnavigation(1519−1522).[7]
    The concept of a spherical Earth displaced earlier beliefs in a flat Earth:


    Quote
    From its Greek origins, the idea of a spherical earth, along with much of Greek astronomical thought, slowly spread across the globe and ultimately became the adopted view in all major astronomical traditions.[3][4][5][6]
    In the West, the idea came to the Romans through the lengthy process of cross-fertilization with Hellenistic civilization. Many Roman authors such as Cicero and Pliny refer in their works to the rotundity of the earth as a matter of course.[30]

    There is nothing on Wikipedia to support your claim that belief in a spherical earth was introduced by Copernicus.

    Offline happenby

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    Re: Are Globers Catholic?
    « Reply #24 on: April 26, 2018, 12:44:37 PM »
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  • https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myth_of_the_flat_Earth

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flat_Earth

    Wrong. Most of the Greeks accepted a spherical earth by 300 BC, and it quickly spread to Rome and the rest of Europe and the Near-East. By 1000 AD, belief in a sphere Earth was universal among the educated(read: the clergy and the nobility).

    If they believed in a flat earth, then explain to me why priests such as Gautier de Metz were never condemned:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gautier_de_Metz

    Saint Thomas also believed in a spherical earth and assumed the reader did too, remarking on how all the different types of professionals and educated had their own ways of observing the roundness of the earth. In Summa Theologiae he wrote: "The physicist proves the earth to be round by one means, the astronomer by another: for the latter proves this by means of mathematics, e. g. by the shapes of eclipses, or something of the sort; while the former proves it by means of physics, e. g. by the movement of heavy bodies towards the center, and so forth."

    Blessed(or St. if you're NO) Hildegaard also believed in a spherical earth, and again did not present it as a novel idea or cutting edge science, but as well-accepted fact:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hildegard_of_Bingen
    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/78/Hildegard_von_Bingen-_%27Werk_Gottes%27%2C_12._Jh..jpg/220px-Hildegard_von_Bingen-_%27Werk_Gottes%27%2C_12._Jh..jpg
    Wiki:
    The ancient Israelites envisaged a universe made up of a flat disc-shaped earth floating on water, heaven above, underworld below.[6]
    The Hebrew Bible depicted a three-part world, with the heavens (shamayim) above, earth (eres) in the middle, and the underworld (sheol) below.[22] After the 4th century BCE this was gradually replaced by a Greek scientific cosmology of a spherical earth surrounded by multiple concentric heavens.[6]
    In the Old Testament the word shamayim represented both the sky/atmosphere, and the dwelling place of God.[30] The raqia or firmament - the visible sky - was a solid inverted bowl over the earth, coloured blue from the heavenly ocean above it.[31] Rain, snow, wind and hail were kept in storehouses outside the raqia, which had "windows" to allow them in - the waters for Noah's flood entered when the "windows of heaven" were opened.[32
    More Wiki
    In the Old Testament period, the earth was most commonly thought of as a flat disc floating on water.[17] The concept was apparently quite similar to that depicted in a Babylonian world-map from about 600 BCE: a single circular continent bounded by a circular sea,[50] and beyond the sea a number of equally spaced triangles called nagu, "distant regions", apparently islands although possibly mountains.[51]
    Medieval European T and O maps such as the Hereford Mappa Mundi were centred on Jerusalem with East at the top.
    Azimuthal or Gnomonic map projections are often used in planning air routes due to their ability to represent great circles as straight lines.


    Ha ha!  One has to wonder about mapping out and planning air routes as straight lines? Certainly not because the earth is a globe.

    Offline happenby

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    Re: Are Globers Catholic?
    « Reply #25 on: April 26, 2018, 12:47:48 PM »
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  • Your exact words were:
    Wikipedia does not say what you claim. The article may be seen at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spherical_Earth  It says that spherical earth was adopted long before Copernicus:


    There is nothing on Wikipedia to support your claim that belief in a spherical earth was introduced by Copernicus.
    Well now, that's just not true.  However, I'm sick of providing information for you, and getting bored of proving you wrong.  Go find what you need or remain ignorant.  It's up to you. 


    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Are Globers Catholic?
    « Reply #26 on: April 26, 2018, 12:57:40 PM »
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  • Well now, that's just not true.
    You claimed that Copernicus introduced spherical earth and that Wikipedia supports your claim.  I just showed quotes of you making the claim and Wikipedia saying the opposite.

    Obviously what I wrote was true and you have no way to counter it other than saying "that's just not true".  I really do not know what is wrong with you that makes you oppose even the most obvious truths.  You cling to error, no matter what.

    Offline forlorn

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    Re: Are Globers Catholic?
    « Reply #27 on: April 26, 2018, 01:30:58 PM »
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  • Wiki:
    The ancient Israelites envisaged a universe made up of a flat disc-shaped earth floating on water, heaven above, underworld below.[6]
    The Hebrew Bible depicted a three-part world, with the heavens (shamayim) above, earth (eres) in the middle, and the underworld (sheol) below.[22] After the 4th century BCE this was gradually replaced by a Greek scientific cosmology of a spherical earth surrounded by multiple concentric heavens.[6]
    In the Old Testament the word shamayim represented both the sky/atmosphere, and the dwelling place of God.[30] The raqia or firmament - the visible sky - was a solid inverted bowl over the earth, coloured blue from the heavenly ocean above it.[31] Rain, snow, wind and hail were kept in storehouses outside the raqia, which had "windows" to allow them in - the waters for Noah's flood entered when the "windows of heaven" were opened.[32
    More Wiki
    In the Old Testament period, the earth was most commonly thought of as a flat disc floating on water.[17] The concept was apparently quite similar to that depicted in a Babylonian world-map from about 600 BCE: a single circular continent bounded by a circular sea,[50] and beyond the sea a number of equally spaced triangles called nagu, "distant regions", apparently islands although possibly mountains.[51]
    Medieval European T and O maps such as the Hereford Mappa Mundi were centred on Jerusalem with East at the top.
    Azimuthal or Gnomonic map projections are often used in planning air routes due to their ability to represent great circles as straight lines.


    Ha ha!  One has to wonder about mapping out and planning air routes as straight lines? Certainly not because the earth is a globe.
    Almost all your citations are from Jєωs in the ancient BCs. We were arguing about the Catholic Church prior to Copernicus. Only your map projections are from Anno Domini, but they prove nothing as EVEN MODERN MAPS ARE SQUARE AND FLAT. That's what makes them maps.

    Offline happenby

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    Re: Are Globers Catholic?
    « Reply #28 on: April 26, 2018, 01:45:05 PM »
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  • You claimed that Copernicus introduced spherical earth and that Wikipedia supports your claim.  I just showed quotes of you making the claim and Wikipedia saying the opposite.

    Obviously what I wrote was true and you have no way to counter it other than saying "that's just not true".  I really do not know what is wrong with you that makes you oppose even the most obvious truths.  You cling to error, no matter what.
    I provide you a single source hinting at Copernicus remaking earth a globe (from Pythagorean doctrine), proving that it is actually you that cling to error no matter what.   


    From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    An astronomical system positing that the Earth, Moon, Sun and planets revolve around an unseen "Central Fire" was developed in the 5th century BC and has been attributed to the Pythagorean philosopher Philolaus, a version based on Stobaeus account, who betrays a tendency to confound the dogmas of the early Ionian philosophers, and he occasionally mixes up Platonism with Pythagoreanism.[1] Brewer (1894, page 2293) mentioned Pythagoras taught that the sun is a movable sphere in the centre of the universe, and that all the planets revolve round it.[2]
    The system has been called "the first coherent system in which celestial bodies move in circles",[3] anticipating Copernicus in moving "the earth from the center of the cosmos [and] making it a planet"

    Offline forlorn

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    Re: Are Globers Catholic?
    « Reply #29 on: April 26, 2018, 01:50:31 PM »
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  • I provide you a single source hinting at Copernicus remaking earth a globe (from Pythagorean doctrine), proving that it is actually you that cling to error no matter what.    


    From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    An astronomical system positing that the Earth, Moon, Sun and planets revolve around an unseen "Central Fire" was developed in the 5th century BC and has been attributed to the Pythagorean philosopher Philolaus, a version based on Stobaeus account, who betrays a tendency to confound the dogmas of the early Ionian philosophers, and he occasionally mixes up Platonism with Pythagoreanism.[1] Brewer (1894, page 2293) mentioned Pythagoras taught that the sun is a movable sphere in the centre of the universe, and that all the planets revolve round it.[2]
    The system has been called "the first coherent system in which celestial bodies move in circles",[3] anticipating Copernicus in moving "the earth from the center of the cosmos [and] making it a planet"

    Nowhere does that quote say Christian Europe believed in a flat earth before Copernicus.