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Author Topic: Are Globers Catholic?  (Read 5806 times)

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Offline kiwiboy

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Are Globers Catholic?
« on: April 23, 2018, 03:53:20 PM »
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    • just askin.....
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    Eclipses neither prove nor disprove the flat earth.

    "As for whether or not I work for NASA, I'm sorry, but I fail to understand what that could possibly have to do with anything" Neil Obstat, 08-03-2017

    Offline forlorn

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    Re: Are Globers Catholic?
    « Reply #1 on: April 23, 2018, 04:05:27 PM »
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    • The Church has, for the vast majority of its history, (fallibly) taught the Ptolemaic system, that being geocentric globe earth.
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    Offline kiwiboy

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    Re: Are Globers Catholic?
    « Reply #2 on: April 24, 2018, 09:32:18 AM »
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    • Quote from: forlorn on April 23, 2018, 04:05:27 PM
    The Church has, for the vast majority of its history, (fallibly) taught the Ptolemaic system, that being geocentric globe earth.

    TOTAL LIE,.

    You are a LIAR because you have seen the quotes which prove the opposite.

    CULPABLE.

    probably a heretic.
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    Eclipses neither prove nor disprove the flat earth.

    "As for whether or not I work for NASA, I'm sorry, but I fail to understand what that could possibly have to do with anything" Neil Obstat, 08-03-2017

    Offline forlorn

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    Re: Are Globers Catholic?
    « Reply #3 on: April 24, 2018, 11:40:51 AM »
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    • It is physically painful to imagine that someone could be so ignorant as to be completely unaware of the Galileo affair, where the Church condemned him not for round-earthism but for Heliocentrism. 

    The medieval and renaissance Catholic Church were entirely geocentrists. 
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    Offline Truth is Eternal

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    Re: Are Globers Catholic?
    « Reply #4 on: April 24, 2018, 08:55:49 PM »
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    • Quote from: forlorn on April 24, 2018, 11:40:51 AM
    It is physically painful to imagine that someone could be so ignorant as to be completely unaware of the Galileo affair, where the Church condemned him not for round-earthism but for Heliocentrism.

    The medieval and renaissance Catholic Church were entirely geocentrists.
    The horizon always appears perfectly flat 360 degrees around the observer regardless of altitude. All amateur balloon, rocket, plane and drone footage show a completely flat horizon over 20+ miles high. Only NASA and other government "space agencies" show curvature in their fake CGI photos/videos.

    The horizon always rises to the eye level of the observer as altitude is gained, so you never have to look down to see it. If Earth were in fact a globe, no matter how large, as you ascended the horizon would stay fixed and the observer / camera would have to tilt looking down further and further to see it.

    The natural physics of water is to find and maintain its level. If Earth were a giant sphere tilted, wobbling and hurdling through infinite space then truly flat, consistently level surfaces would not exist here. But since Earth is in fact an extended flat plane, this fundamental physical property of fluids finding and remaining level is consistent with experience and common sense.
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    Offline hismajesty

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    Re: Are Globers Catholic?
    « Reply #5 on: April 26, 2018, 02:14:20 AM »
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    • Quote from: forlorn on April 24, 2018, 11:40:51 AM
    It is physically painful to imagine that someone could be so ignorant as to be completely unaware of the Galileo affair, where the Church condemned him not for round-earthism but for Heliocentrism.

    The medieval and renaissance Catholic Church were entirely geocentrists.
    That's not what the text says. Could go either way. In fact when you take in the later condemnation of agreda for saying the earth was a globe, then you are most likely wrong.
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    "....I am at a loss what to say respecting those who, when they have once erred, consistently persevere in their folly, and defend one vain thing by another" - Church Father Lactentius on the globe earth

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Are Globers Catholic?
    « Reply #6 on: April 26, 2018, 07:26:25 AM »
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    • Quote from: hismajesty on April 26, 2018, 02:14:20 AM
    That's not what the text says. Could go either way. In fact when you take in the later condemnation of agreda for saying the earth was a globe, then you are most likely wrong.

    No, it could not go either way.  There is nothing whatsoever in the text that even hints at any problem with the idea of a spherical earth.  It is a clear, specific condemnation of the proposition that the earth orbits the sun.  Also, we know from history that the dominant position among Catholics at that time was the Ptolemaic model which included a spherical earth.

    The "condemnation" of Sor Maria was for saying that the earth was egg-shaped rather than a perfect sphere as commonly believed at that time.  This event does not show Catholic support for flat earth.

    The Church has never taught against spherical earth. Rather, this has been the dominant belief throughout most of our history.  Some (but not all) Church Fathers thought the earth was flat but the belief was virtually non-existent after the Patristic period. To question the Catholicity of those who believe in a spherical earth is to question the majority of Catholics.  This includes Saints like Bede, Albert the Great, Thomas Aquinas, and Robert Bellarmine. 

    That flat-earthers see themselves as some sort of superior Catholic with the right to judge the faith of "globers" is probably the most pernicious aspect of this phenomenon.  It is not merely factually incorrect but spiritually dangerous.
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    Offline aryzia

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    Re: Are Globers Catholic?
    « Reply #7 on: April 26, 2018, 10:41:17 AM »
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    • Quote from: Jaynek on April 26, 2018, 07:26:25 AM
    No, it could not go either way.  There is nothing whatsoever in the text that even hints at any problem with the idea of a spherical earth.  It is a clear, specific condemnation of the proposition that the earth orbits the sun.  Also, we know from history that the dominant position among Catholics at that time was the Ptolemaic model which included a spherical earth.

    The "condemnation" of Sor Maria was for saying that the earth was egg-shaped rather than a perfect sphere as commonly believed at that time.  This event does not show Catholic support for flat earth.

    The Church has never taught against spherical earth. Rather, this has been the dominant belief throughout most of our history.  Some (but not all) Church Fathers thought the earth was flat but the belief was virtually non-existent after the Patristic period. To question the Catholicity of those who believe in a spherical earth is to question the majority of Catholics.  This includes Saints like Bede, Albert the Great, Thomas Aquinas, and Robert Bellarmine.

    That flat-earthers see themselves as some sort of superior Catholic with the right to judge the faith of "globers" is probably the most pernicious aspect of this phenomenon.  It is not merely factually incorrect but spiritually dangerous.
    Although some may have entertained the notion of a spherical earth, it was made clear that belief in those spheres was for mathematical purposes,  not reality.  This statement predates the Church's condemning of heliocentrism so while the globe earth wasn't specifically condemned, the pagan heliocentric doctrine was stated to be altogether heretical and dangerous to the Faith.
    “There really are not any spheres in the heavens… Those of which have been devised by the experts to save the appearances exist only in the imagination, for the purpose of enabling the mind to conceive the motion which the heavenly bodies trace in their course and, by the aid of geometry, to determine the motion numerically through the use of arithmetic.”

    -Tycho Brahe, On the Most Recent Phenomena of the Aetherial World, 1588
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    Offline forlorn

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    Re: Are Globers Catholic?
    « Reply #8 on: April 26, 2018, 10:51:19 AM »
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    • Quote from: aryzia on April 26, 2018, 10:41:17 AM
    Although some may have entertained the notion of a spherical earth, it was made clear that belief in those spheres was for mathematical purposes,  not reality.  This statement predates the Church's condemning of heliocentrism so while the globe earth wasn't specifically condemned, the pagan heliocentric doctrine was stated to be altogether heretical and dangerous to the Faith.
    “There really are not any spheres in the heavens… Those of which have been devised by the experts to save the appearances exist only in the imagination, for the purpose of enabling the mind to conceive the motion which the heavenly bodies trace in their course and, by the aid of geometry, to determine the motion numerically through the use of arithmetic.”

    -Tycho Brahe, On the Most Recent Phenomena of the Aetherial World, 1588

    Quote
    "I say that it appears that you (Foscarini and Galileo) have acted prudently in being satisfied with speaking of Copernicanism as a hypothesis…for to say that the assumption that the earth moves..saves all appearances better than do eccentrics and epicycles is to speak well. But to wish to assert that the sun is really located in the center of the world…[is] making the Holy Scripture false…and the Council of Trent has prohibited the interpretation of Scripture contrary to the common agreement of the Holy Fathers" (Bellarmine to Foscarini, 12 April 1615)

    Notice how Bellarmine refers to epicycles, which exist under the Ptolemaic system but not in any other(and certainly not the flat earth). And notice again how he says that saying the sun is the centre of the world is what is contrary to scripture, NOT saying the earth is round. He doesn't even mention the fact that Galileo believed in a sphere earth, because EVERYONE did. 
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    Offline aryzia

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    Re: Are Globers Catholic?
    « Reply #9 on: April 26, 2018, 10:53:54 AM »
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    • Even wiki admits:

    From publication until about 1700, few astronomers were convinced by the Copernican system, though the book was relatively widely circulated (around 500 copies of the first and second editions have survived,[34] which is a large number by the scientific standards of the time).


    So much for Jayne's theory it was widely accepted that earth was a globe. And how could it be widely accepted? They didn't have TV, books or  Internet back then.

    Copernican heliocentrism wiki
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    Offline happenby

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    Re: Are Globers Catholic?
    « Reply #10 on: April 26, 2018, 11:08:26 AM »
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    • Quote from: aryzia on April 26, 2018, 10:53:54 AM
    Even wiki admits:

    From publication until about 1700, few astronomers were convinced by the Copernican system, though the book was relatively widely circulated (around 500 copies of the first and second editions have survived,[34] which is a large number by the scientific standards of the time).


    So much for Jayne's theory it was widely accepted that earth was a globe. And how could it be widely accepted? They didn't have TV, books or  Internet back then.

    Copernican heliocentrism wiki
    Wipes out forlorn's argument too.
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    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Are Globers Catholic?
    « Reply #11 on: April 26, 2018, 11:10:35 AM »
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    • Quote from: aryzia on April 26, 2018, 10:41:17 AM
    Although some may have entertained the notion of a spherical earth, it was made clear that belief in those spheres was for mathematical purposes,  not reality.  This statement predates the Church's condemning of heliocentrism so while the globe earth wasn't specifically condemned, the pagan heliocentric doctrine was stated to be altogether heretical and dangerous to the Faith.
    “There really are not any spheres in the heavens… Those of which have been devised by the experts to save the appearances exist only in the imagination, for the purpose of enabling the mind to conceive the motion which the heavenly bodies trace in their course and, by the aid of geometry, to determine the motion numerically through the use of arithmetic.”

    -Tycho Brahe, On the Most Recent Phenomena of the Aetherial World, 1588

    In the Ptolemaic system, the earth is a sphere which is the center of a system of concentric spheres holding various heavenly bodies.  In the Tychonic system, the earth is also a sphere (because everybody believed the earth was a sphere) with a sphere around it holding the sun, while some other heavenly bodies are in spheres centered on the sun.

    The quote above does not refer to the sphericity of the earth, but, as it plainly says, to "spheres in the heavens".  Brahe was saying that the spheres which hold heavenly bodies are not physical objects but mathematical constructs to understand their movement.

    St. Bede, back around 800 AD, gave proofs to show that the earth is a sphere in reality and that has been the dominant belief among Catholics since that time at least.

    There is nothing in the Brahe quote to indicate that the condemnation of heliocentrism should be understood to include a spherical earth.
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    Offline happenby

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    Re: Are Globers Catholic?
    « Reply #12 on: April 26, 2018, 11:19:54 AM »
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    • Quote from: forlorn on April 24, 2018, 11:40:51 AM
    It is physically painful to imagine that someone could be so ignorant as to be completely unaware of the Galileo affair, where the Church condemned him not for round-earthism but for Heliocentrism.

    The medieval and renaissance Catholic Church were entirely geocentrists.
    They were not spherical geocentrists.  Tycho Brahe admittedly only used the "spheres" for mathematical purposes prior to the Church's condemnations.  The Church didn't condemn the sphere specifically because it wasn't widely accepted.  Also, the absurdity that people walked around upside down from each other on a sphere preceded itself and canceled the need.  St. Augustine destroyed the notion a sphere in rejecting the notion of the anti-podes.  It remains Catholic teaching that Jerusalem sits in the center of the earth.  If earth were a ball, Jerusalem would have to been where they say hell is.   
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    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Are Globers Catholic?
    « Reply #13 on: April 26, 2018, 11:23:49 AM »
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    • Quote from: aryzia on April 26, 2018, 10:53:54 AM
    Even wiki admits:

    From publication until about 1700, few astronomers were convinced by the Copernican system, though the book was relatively widely circulated (around 500 copies of the first and second editions have survived,[34] which is a large number by the scientific standards of the time).


    So much for Jayne's theory it was widely accepted that earth was a globe. And how could it be widely accepted? They didn't have TV, books or  Internet back then.

    Copernican heliocentrism wiki
    Few astronomers were convinced that the earth orbited the sun.  This is not surprising, since neither Copernicus nor Galileo made a compelling case for that view.

    It was however widely accepted that the earth was a globe because that belief existed independently of the Copernican system.  It was widely accepted because it was taught at universities (which were Catholic institutions throughout the middle ages). There were books, although not as common before the invention of the printing press, and copies exist of the medieval university texts which taught the earth is a globe. Being educated was practically synonymous with believing the earth was a globe.  

    The highest levels of the Church hierarchy would mostly have had this sort of education.
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    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Are Globers Catholic?
    « Reply #14 on: April 26, 2018, 11:31:01 AM »
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    • Quote from: happenby on April 26, 2018, 11:19:54 AM
    St. Augustine destroyed the notion a sphere in rejecting the notion of the anti-podes. 
    St. Augustine argued against the notion of people living on the other side of the earth (such people are often referred to antipodes).  His argument did not destroy the notion that the earth is a sphere.
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