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Author Topic: Are Globers Catholic?  (Read 12708 times)

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Offline aryzia

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Re: Are Globers Catholic?
« Reply #45 on: April 29, 2018, 03:13:51 PM »
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    • Quote from: Theosist on April 28, 2018, 12:30:51 PM
    Again happenby seems unable to get a grasp on the distinction between heliocentrism and a globular Earth, the quotation about Copernicus concerning the introduction of the former, not the latter.

    Geocentrism and terrestrial sphericity are not mutually exclusive concepts. To the contrary, the only way for the Earth to be the true centre of the cosmos, from all directions, is for the cosmos and the Earth with it to be spherical.
    Terrestrial sphericity is mutually exclusive of reason. And the Fathers of the Church.
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    Offline Theosist

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    Re: Are Globers Catholic?
    « Reply #46 on: April 29, 2018, 03:55:19 PM »
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    • Quote from: aryzia on April 29, 2018, 03:13:51 PM
    Terrestrial sphericity is mutually exclusive of reason. And the Fathers of the Church.
    Your comment is “mutually exclusive of” the grammar of the English language.
    The first claim is meaningless.
    The second claim is patently false:  several of the Fathers of the Church held to “sphericity”: Jerome, Basil, Clement of Alexandria, Gregory of Nyssa and, of course, Augustine. This is a demonstrable fact, therefore your assertion regarding “the Fathers”, as a universally quantified statement, is false.
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    Offline Theosist

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    Re: Are Globers Catholic?
    « Reply #47 on: April 29, 2018, 03:58:48 PM »
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    • Notice the OBSESSION that these flat-Earth trads have with subject. It consumes their thought. That’s the hallmark of cultism right there.
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    Offline Meg

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    Re: Are Globers Catholic?
    « Reply #48 on: April 29, 2018, 04:09:41 PM »
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    • Quote from: Theosist on April 29, 2018, 11:24:23 AM
    When I look at actual traditions of the learned men of all ancient civilised cultures, and in particular at the esoteric doctrines of the “high” paganisms like Hermeticism, Zoroastrianism, Brahmanism, Taoism etc., I find not a belief in a geocentric cosmos , but one that coincides with Hebrew mysticism and Beoplatonism in rejecting any materialist conception of the cosmos at all, placing the infinite divine at the center of everything and Earth, the physical place where we reside, as an outer shell, the place farthest from its pure light next to the outer darkness of Hell, where matter becomes less and less subtle and the world more and more solidified as one moves outward.
    The usual cosmic spheres, Hell at the centre and the Empyrean at the farthest circuмference, is just an exoteric inversion of the view.

    If one wants to speculate about about primitive revelation, that, and not stories about flat disks carried atop the backs of giant space turtles, would be the place to begin.

    Are you Catholic? Judging by your username, and the above post, I think not. 
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Meg

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    Re: Are Globers Catholic?
    « Reply #49 on: April 29, 2018, 06:08:15 PM »
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    • Quote from: kiwiboy on April 23, 2018, 03:53:20 PM
    just askin.....

    Well, there's at least one pagan glober on this thread who adamantly defends the globe. Not surprising. 
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: Are Globers Catholic?
    « Reply #50 on: April 29, 2018, 08:52:02 PM »
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    • Quote from: aryzia on April 29, 2018, 03:13:51 PM
    Terrestrial sphericity is mutually exclusive of reason. And the Fathers of the Church.
    .
    Flat-earthism is beyond the pale of lunacy. Everyone knows the earth is spheroid.
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    Offline kiwiboy

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    Re: Are Globers Catholic?
    « Reply #51 on: April 30, 2018, 07:45:28 AM »
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    • The quote of st. Thomas given on page 2 does not seem to show he believed it. It just quotes Aristotle and what he thought.

    Since creation is the foundation of our religion, it is hard to see how people who reject that are not rejecting the Catholic religion.

    Unlike sedevacantism, this question can be resolved not just with speculative discussion, but also with concrete proofs. It is in your face. If you reject that you reject God. So it seems...

    Thoughts?
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    Offline aryzia

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    Re: Are Globers Catholic?
    « Reply #52 on: April 30, 2018, 07:55:18 AM »
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    • Quote from: kiwiboy on April 30, 2018, 07:45:28 AM
    The quote of st. Thomas given on page 2 does not seem to show he believed it. It just quotes Aristotle and what he thought.

    Since creation is the foundation of our religion, it is hard to see how people who reject that are not rejecting the Catholic religion.

    Unlike sedevacantism, this question can be resolved not just with speculative discussion, but also with concrete proofs. It is in your face. If you reject that you reject God. So it seems...

    Thoughts?
    Globers don't have thoughts of their own. They are indoctrinated.
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    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Are Globers Catholic?
    « Reply #53 on: April 30, 2018, 08:03:26 AM »
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    • Quote from: kiwiboy on April 30, 2018, 07:45:28 AM
    The quote of st. Thomas given on page 2 does not seem to show he believed it. It just quotes Aristotle and what he thought.

    Since creation is the foundation of our religion, it is hard to see how people who reject that are not rejecting the Catholic religion.

    Unlike sedevacantism, this question can be resolved not just with speculative discussion, but also with concrete proofs. It is in your face. If you reject that you reject God. So it seems...

    Thoughts?
    As I have repeatedly explained, in the original Latin, there is a different grammar construction depending on whether one alludes to a belief that one agrees with or disagrees with.  Aquinas used the construction which showed that he agreed with the belief he was writing about. 

    The Church clearly teaches that we are permitted to understand passages about the physical nature of creation figuratively.  How can those who do what the Church permits be said to be rejecting the Catholic religion?  There is a better case that those who deny others what the Church permits are rejecting the Catholic religion.

    Nobody on this forum who accepts a spherical earth is denying that God is the Creator or that Scripture is inerrant.  We are interpreting Scripture as the Church encourages to and as it has traditionally been done for most of Catholic history.
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    Offline aryzia

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    Re: Are Globers Catholic?
    « Reply #54 on: April 30, 2018, 09:43:50 AM »
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    • Quote from: Jaynek on April 30, 2018, 08:03:26 AM
    As I have repeatedly explained, in the original Latin, there is a different grammar construction depending on whether one alludes to a belief that one agrees with or disagrees with.  Aquinas used the construction which showed that he agreed with the belief he was writing about.

    The Church clearly teaches that we are permitted to understand passages about the physical nature of creation figuratively.  How can those who do what the Church permits be said to be rejecting the Catholic religion?  There is a better case that those who deny others what the Church permits are rejecting the Catholic religion.

    Nobody on this forum who accepts a spherical earth is denying that God is the Creator or that Scripture is inerrant.  We are interpreting Scripture as the Church encourages to and as it has traditionally been done for most of Catholic history.
    We are interpreting Scripture as the Church encourages to and as it has traditionally been done for most of Catholic history.
    ********************
    No you're not.
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    Offline kiwiboy

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    Re: Are Globers Catholic?
    « Reply #55 on: April 30, 2018, 03:39:53 PM »
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    • Quote from: Jaynek on April 30, 2018, 08:03:26 AM
    As I have repeatedly explained, in the original Latin, there is a different grammar construction depending on whether one alludes to a belief that one agrees with or disagrees with.  Aquinas used the construction which showed that he agreed with the belief he was writing about.

    The Church clearly teaches that we are permitted to understand passages about the physical nature of creation figuratively.  How can those who do what the Church permits be said to be rejecting the Catholic religion?  There is a better case that those who deny others what the Church permits are rejecting the Catholic religion.

    Nobody on this forum who accepts a spherical earth is denying that God is the Creator or that Scripture is inerrant.  We are interpreting Scripture as the Church encourages to and as it has traditionally been done for most of Catholic history.

    If they had wanted to translate it your way, then they would have done so.

    Even if St. Thomas was pro globe earth, he would still be wrong. Material heretic.

    Like St. Bede.
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    Offline kiwiboy

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    Re: Are Globers Catholic?
    « Reply #56 on: April 30, 2018, 03:41:17 PM »
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    • ------------------The phrase "quod terram esse rotundam per aliud medium demonstrat" has its verb "demonstrat" in the indicative which means the author believes it is a fact.  If he were alluding to something that he himself did not believe it would be in the subjunctive.  There is no ambiguity about this in the original Latin.--------------------- from Jaynek



    My response;

    That's your interpretation of the text. Which is not completely certain.
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    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Are Globers Catholic?
    « Reply #57 on: April 30, 2018, 04:07:11 PM »
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    • Quote from: kiwiboy on April 30, 2018, 03:41:17 PM
    ------------------The phrase "quod terram esse rotundam per aliud medium demonstrat" has its verb "demonstrat" in the indicative which means the author believes it is a fact.  If he were alluding to something that he himself did not believe it would be in the subjunctive.  There is no ambiguity about this in the original Latin.--------------------- from Jaynek



    My response;

    That's your interpretation of the text. Which is not completely certain.
    Anyone who has studied enough Latin to know how the subjunctive functions, knows that what I wrote was correct.  If you think it is "not completely certain" you must not know Latin
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    Offline kiwiboy

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    Re: Are Globers Catholic?
    « Reply #58 on: April 30, 2018, 04:13:36 PM »
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    • Quote from: Jaynek on April 30, 2018, 04:07:11 PM
    Anyone who has studied enough Latin to know how the subjunctive functions, knows that what I wrote was correct.  If you think it is "not completely certain" you must not know Latin

    The point to remember is that he was citing aristotle. Not adding his own opinion. St. Thomas was not noted for his glorious latin. It could go either way here. It is more than likely just bad latin. Because it is clearly part of what should be a subjunctive clause. He was using the indicative, and you are imposing your error of globe thought on this.

    But at the end of the day, it doesnt matter, because globe earth will still be an error, and probably proven to be a heresy someday, regardless of whether you like it or not.
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    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Are Globers Catholic?
    « Reply #59 on: April 30, 2018, 04:17:42 PM »
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    • Quote from: kiwiboy on April 30, 2018, 03:39:53 PM
    If they had wanted to translate it your way, then they would have done so.

    Even if St. Thomas was pro globe earth, he would still be wrong. Material heretic.

    Like St. Bede.
    In order for belief in spherical earth to be a heresy, there would have to be Church teaching that the earth is not a sphere.  There is no such teaching.

    It was the personal opinion of some but not all Church Fathers that the earth was flat.  Nobody is a heretic for disagreeing with them.  There is no evidence of any educated Catholics from the time of St. Bede onward who believed the earth is flat.  There is well over a millennium of Catholics accepting the earth is a sphere and teaching this at Catholic institutions.
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