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Author Topic: Are Globers Catholic?  (Read 5808 times)

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Offline Jaynek

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Re: Are Globers Catholic?
« Reply #30 on: April 26, 2018, 02:26:45 PM »
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  • I provide you a single source hinting at Copernicus remaking earth a globe (from Pythagorean doctrine), proving that it is actually you that cling to error no matter what.    


    From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    An astronomical system positing that the Earth, Moon, Sun and planets revolve around an unseen "Central Fire" was developed in the 5th century BC and has been attributed to the Pythagorean philosopher Philolaus, a version based on Stobaeus account, who betrays a tendency to confound the dogmas of the early Ionian philosophers, and he occasionally mixes up Platonism with Pythagoreanism.[1] Brewer (1894, page 2293) mentioned Pythagoras taught that the sun is a movable sphere in the centre of the universe, and that all the planets revolve round it.[2]
    The system has been called "the first coherent system in which celestial bodies move in circles",[3] anticipating Copernicus in moving "the earth from the center of the cosmos [and] making it a planet"



    This passage says nothing explicit, nor does it hint at Copernicus "remaking the earth a globe".  It is about the Pythagorean astronomical system. 

    The position of Wikipedia is:

    Quote
    While the sphericity of the Earth was widely recognized in Greco-Roman astronomy from at least the 3rd century BC, the Earth's daily rotation and yearly orbit around the Sun was never universally accepted until the Copernican Revolution.

    Note that the sphericity of the Earth is a separate question from that of the movement of the earth.  Copernicus was highly influential in spreading the idea that the earth orbits the sun, but the belief in spherical earth was well-established many centuries, almost a millennium, before that.  The Copernican Revolution had nothing to do with people's beliefs about the shape of the earth.

    Wikipedia in no way supports your odd ideas on this subject.


    Offline Theosist

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    Re: Are Globers Catholic?
    « Reply #31 on: April 28, 2018, 12:30:51 PM »
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  • Again happenby seems unable to get a grasp on the distinction between heliocentrism and a globular Earth, the quotation about Copernicus concerning the introduction of the former, not the latter.

    Geocentrism and terrestrial sphericity are not mutually exclusive concepts. To the contrary, the only way for the Earth to be the true centre of the cosmos, from all directions, is for the cosmos and the Earth with it to be spherical.



    Offline forlorn

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    Re: Are Globers Catholic?
    « Reply #32 on: April 28, 2018, 05:02:04 PM »
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  • Again happenby seems unable to get a grasp on the distinction between heliocentrism and a globular Earth, the quotation about Copernicus concerning the introduction of the former, not the latter.

    Geocentrism and terrestrial sphericity are not mutually exclusive concepts. To the contrary, the only way for the Earth to be the true centre of the cosmos, from all directions, is for the cosmos and the Earth with it to be spherical.
    Flat Earthers have started referring to a "geocentric flat Earth" to try and claim Church beliefs on geocentrism were referring to that. There is no such thing as "geocentric" flat Earth, it's redundant terminology as there cannot be a Flat Earth that orbits the Sun. No one would ever say they were a geocentrist if they believed in a flat Earth, they'd just say they were a flat Earther. But the ill willed morons here have started appending geocentric to their system so they can claim St. Bellarmine and his contemporaries held their view, which is utter nonsense since in NONE of the Church's condemnation of heliocentrism did it EVER condemn or even MENTION the heliocentric belief in a globe Earth. 

    Offline AlligatorDicax

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    "Wiki"!?/Re: Are Globers Catholic?
    « Reply #33 on: April 28, 2018, 06:00:53 PM »
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  • Wiki says most ancients were flat earthers and the multitude of drawings and maps proving that are readily available on Wiki and the Internet.

    More than 2000 postings, counting only those on CathInfo, and you still haven't learned that "Wiki" is not Wikipedia!?[×]

    It's high time that you learned several simple-but-fundamental things about both, then took them to heart (I'm sure it won't hinder your rate of churning out future postings):

    •  Wiki is not acceptable as an abbreviation for Wikipedia.  It's certainly no more acceptable than misusing "Photo" to abbreviate Photoshop, or "Page" to abbreviate "PageMaker", or worst but once quite common, "Java" to abbreviate Javascript.

    •  Wiki is instead the widely accepted technical term for a software technology, as invented by Ward Cunningham ca. 1994, when in his mid 40s [†].

    •  Wikipedia is merely the world's most popular instance of the wiki technology.  Many wiki instances--possibly the majority--are publicly invisible, being on the secured side of computer networks that serve a sanitized Internet to their (own) users.

    •  Wikipedia is quite risky for Catholics to use to obtain information for debating faith or morals.  The site was notoriously skunked for such purposes by its protracted "Essjay scandal" [].

    •  Wikipedia more-or-less uncritically accepts & presents propaganda from the "Southern Poverty" Law Center [✡] that's hostile to traditional Catholic faith or morals.

    -------
    Note ×: <http://wiki.c2.com/?WikipediaIsNotWiki>, and more peripherally <http://wiki.c2.com/?WikiIsNotWikipedia> (both pages require enabling Javascript).

    Note †: Cunningham installed his WikiWikiWeb as accessible to the Internet in 1995, at his age 45.  That's at least 5 years later than the age at which U.S. corporate "human resources" drones typically-but-cluelessly judge software engineers of comparable seniority to be "unable to learn or use new technology", thus, as the Brits say, "redundant".  Fortunately for him and us, he was a principal in a high-tech consulting business at the time.

    Note : "Essjay" was a 20-something college drop-out who, as a "Wikipedian", claimed to be a 30-something-or-older tenured professor of religion at an unidentified secular college in the U.S. Northeast, and a specialist in the Catholic religion. So he indulged himself in extensive editing of articles on religion in Wikipedia, winning edit wars over those articles by flaunting his fraudulent--but persistent--claim of having earned dual doctorates: a Ph.D. in theology and a J.C.D. in Canon Law, and stretching those into claims of which textbooks and other reference material he required his alleged students to use in the college courses he allegedly taught.  Somewhat later, he claimed that he didn't endure the academic grind for those degrees to defend the Faith, but instead, out of detached academic interest, which he explained with claims to be a politically liberal Protestant sodomite with a live-in "partner".   He rose rapidly into the highest ranks of Wikipedia editorial power before he was, um, busted!  (2006--2007) by Wikipedia Review: <http://wikipediareview.com/index.php?showtopic=2778>.

    Note ✡: I trust that by now (2018), all CathInfo readers can display the Star-of-David Dingbat (Unicode 1.0.0: 1991) reference mark (to the immediate right of the introductory word "Note") that I'm using in this posting for the "Southern Poverty" Law Center ("SP"LC), whose founding majority was Jєωιѕн, and whose leadership is still top-heavy with Jєωs.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Are Globers Catholic?
    « Reply #34 on: April 28, 2018, 06:30:00 PM »
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  • The Church has, for the vast majority of its history, (fallibly) taught the Ptolemaic system, that being geocentric globe earth.

    What do you mean by "taught"?  Typically the Church does not teach about science.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Are Globers Catholic?
    « Reply #35 on: April 28, 2018, 06:36:23 PM »
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  • Indeed, nearly all ancient cultures considered the earth to be flat.  That to me is very compelling.  Why?  Because if cultures scattered around the world come up with a very similar cosmology, it's likely rooted in some "primitive revelation" (and direct knowledge).  Similarly, if the Church Fathers, scattered around the world, unanimously consider something to be revealed, then it's certain that it was.

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Are Globers Catholic?
    « Reply #36 on: April 28, 2018, 07:05:50 PM »
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  • Indeed, nearly all ancient cultures considered the earth to be flat.  That to me is very compelling.  Why?  Because if cultures scattered around the world come up with a very similar cosmology, it's likely rooted in some "primitive revelation" (and direct knowledge).  Similarly, if the Church Fathers, scattered around the world, unanimously consider something to be revealed, then it's certain that it was.
    Nearly all ancient cultures were polytheistic.  They were however very wrong.  There is no good reason to assume some sort of "primitive revelation" other than the moral sense imparted by natural law.

    Ancient cultures agreeing on something is nothing like Church Fathers unanimously considering something to be revealed. The Fathers were Christians who had received the true religion while ancient cultures were pagans who therefore  believed many errors.  There is not necessarily any significance to similarities occurring among these errors.

    Offline forlorn

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    Re: Are Globers Catholic?
    « Reply #37 on: April 28, 2018, 07:30:13 PM »
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  • What do you mean by "taught"?  Typically the Church does not teach about science.
    The Church condemned heliocentrists, tried them for heresy and banned their books, while endorsing geocentrist works and authors. It sent a pretty clear messagr to Catholics about which they should believe. 


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Are Globers Catholic?
    « Reply #38 on: April 28, 2018, 07:32:56 PM »
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  • Nearly all ancient cultures were polytheistic.  They were however very wrong.  There is no good reason to assume some sort of "primitive revelation" other than the moral sense imparted by natural law.

    #1) I never said that it was proof, just that it's compelling.

    #2) Polytheism could be the reflection of a common experience, such as demonic entities.

    #3) In most of these polytheistic cultures, the "gods" were more superior beings of some kind, whether demonic entities, giants, the "sons of God" cited in Scripture, or some superior race(s) that they encountered.  Hard to say.

    #4) Primitive Revelation is a very real thing.  Adam and Eve in their unfallen state, with intellects unencuмbered by Original Sin, and also because they "walked with God" in Eden, were privy to a great deal of knowledge about the natural world.  Some of this was passed down and transmitted through their offspring.

    #5) Finally, and most importantly, if you look at the cosmology of ancient cultures, they are nearly identical in many of the details.  It's one thing to say that all these cultures were polytheistic ... but if these cultures ALL, for example, had exactly 10 gods, then you could be sure that it has to do with some real experience of a group of ten entities of some kind that they viewed as gods or preternatural beings.  Now, just because they interpreted these beings as "gods" doesn't even necessarily mean that they were ... just that they were greatly superior to them in some way.  It's just statistically almost impossible that they could randomly come up with the exact same thing.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Are Globers Catholic?
    « Reply #39 on: April 28, 2018, 07:38:28 PM »
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  • Ancient cultures agreeing on something is nothing like Church Fathers unanimously considering something to be revealed.

    Oh, it most certainly is.  Reason is the same.  If the Church Fathers, scattered around the world, happened to come up with the exact same thing, it's indicative of Apostolic Origin.  THAT is why the unanimous consensus of the Church Fathers is considered proof of something being revealed.  There's no special charism of the Holy Spirit tied to the Church Fathers.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Are Globers Catholic?
    « Reply #40 on: April 28, 2018, 07:41:07 PM »
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  • The Church condemned heliocentrists, tried them for heresy and banned their books, while endorsing geocentrist works and authors. It sent a pretty clear messagr to Catholics about which they should believe.

    That I understand.  They condemned a specific scientific theory because it contradicted Sacred Scripture, but the formal object of the Church's Magisterium can never be science.  In the case of these condemnations, the Church was teaching about Holy Scripture rather than science per se.  In any case, yes, they condemned heliocentrism and endorsed geocentrism (though more the former than the latter).  But where exactly does the Church teach globe earth?  Even if they endrose geocentrists who HAPPEN to believe in a globe earth, that doesn't mean they were endorsing them vis-a-vis globe earth but merely because of their geocentrism.

    So, to be precise, the Church did NOT teach:

    1) the earth is the center of the universe

    but, rather,

    2) heliocentrism contradicts Sacred Scripture while geocentrism is consistent with it.

    Might seem like a subtle distinction, but it's crucial.

    And, finally, while the Church taught geocentrism at one point, the Church later lifted the condemnation of heliocentrism.  So this teaching was clearly not an irreformable or infallible teaching.


    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Are Globers Catholic?
    « Reply #41 on: April 28, 2018, 08:25:15 PM »
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  • #1) I never said that it was proof, just that it's compelling.

    #2) Polytheism could be the reflection of a common experience, such as demonic entities.

    #3) In most of these polytheistic cultures, the "gods" were more superior beings of some kind, whether demonic entities, giants, the "sons of God" cited in Scripture, or some superior race(s) that they encountered.  Hard to say.

    #4) Primitive Revelation is a very real thing.  Adam and Eve in their unfallen state, with intellects unencuмbered by Original Sin, and also because they "walked with God" in Eden, were privy to a great deal of knowledge about the natural world.  Some of this was passed down and transmitted through their offspring.

    #5) Finally, and most importantly, if you look at the cosmology of ancient cultures, they are nearly identical in many of the details.  It's one thing to say that all these cultures were polytheistic ... but if these cultures ALL, for example, had exactly 10 gods, then you could be sure that it has to do with some real experience of a group of ten entities of some kind that they viewed as gods or preternatural beings.  Now, just because they interpreted these beings as "gods" doesn't even necessarily mean that they were ... just that they were greatly superior to them in some way.  It's just statistically almost impossible that they could randomly come up with the exact same thing.
    I do not find it the least bit compelling.  It is wishful thinking to see this as some sort of evidence for the earth being flat.

    Belief in flat earth was a reflection of the common experience of the earth appearing flat to the senses. Nobody could see it all at once and see that it is a sphere.  Figuring out that it is a sphere requires making deductions from observations.  And over time, virtually all of these primitive cultures made those deductions and moved on to belief in a spherical earth.  

    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: Are Globers Catholic?
    « Reply #42 on: April 28, 2018, 08:43:21 PM »
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  • You claimed that Copernicus introduced spherical earth and that Wikipedia supports your claim.  I just showed quotes of you making the claim and Wikipedia saying the opposite.

    Obviously what I wrote was true and you have no way to counter it other than saying "that's just not true".  I really do not know what is wrong with you that makes you oppose even the most obvious truths.  You cling to error, no matter what.
    .
    I'll tell you what's wrong with happenby, Jaynek. The problem is, happenby is a flat-earther:
    .
    Flat-earthers cling to their favorite error because it is their golden-calf false-god of flat-earthism which they worship with all their heart, mind and soul, even above God Himself, which BTW breaks the First Commandment and is a mortal sin.
    .
    Therefore, the OP's question (Are Globers Catholic?) really isn't the right question.
    It should be asking:  Are flat-earthers Catholic?  Because they sure don't act like Catholics.
    .
    For example, aryzia keeps posting junk about "spheres" as if referring to the solid sphericity of earth, when the material quoted is clearly referring to the immaterial spheres which had been thought long ago to be descriptive of planetary orbits. Even after several times she has been informed of that history, still she ignores the reality and persists in misrepresenting what those "spheres" were.
    .
    BTW happenby's curious contrary statements regarding Wikipedia could be very simply explained by the fact that Wikipedia allows anyone to edit the contents of articles. Consequently, happenby could be going to the Wiki site on her computer, typing in her own edit of the text she finds there, and then returning to CI to report what she had just written on Wiki. She would not be falsifying the reality that Wiki DID contain what she claims it did (because she had just written it on Wiki!), even though in fact (since Wiki constantly scours its articles undoing edits that someone in power at Wiki doesn't approve of, sometimes within just 5 minutes of an edit taking place) what happenby is busy attesting to as being found on Wiki (because she had just written it there!) cannot be found on Wiki at all because it has been UNDONE by the mysterious ghost editors who haunt the place day and night, 24/7/365.25... (There are slightly more than 365.25 days in the year, currently.) Therefore, by the time you read her post that says such-and-such is to be found on Wiki, when you go looking for it you can't find it because the haunting ghosts wiped it out all ready.
    .
    That would explain as well her obsession with things being "wiped out" which see.
    .--. .-.-.- ... .-.-.- ..-. --- .-. - .... . -.- .. -. --. -.. --- -- --..-- - .... . .--. --- .-- . .-. .- -. -.. -....- -....- .--- ..- ... - -.- .. -.. -.. .. -. --. .-.-.

    Offline Theosist

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    Re: Are Globers Catholic?
    « Reply #43 on: April 29, 2018, 11:07:25 AM »
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  • #1) I never said that it was proof, just that it's compelling.

    #2) Polytheism could be the reflection of a common experience, such as demonic entities.

    #3) In most of these polytheistic cultures, the "gods" were more superior beings of some kind, whether demonic entities, giants, the "sons of God" cited in Scripture, or some superior race(s) that they encountered.  Hard to say.

    #4) Primitive Revelation is a very real thing.  Adam and Eve in their unfallen state, with intellects unencuмbered by Original Sin, and also because they "walked with God" in Eden, were privy to a great deal of knowledge about the natural world.  Some of this was passed down and transmitted through their offspring.

    #5) Finally, and most importantly, if you look at the cosmology of ancient cultures, they are nearly identical in many of the details.  It's one thing to say that all these cultures were polytheistic ... but if these cultures ALL, for example, had exactly 10 gods, then you could be sure that it has to do with some real experience of a group of ten entities of some kind that they viewed as gods or preternatural beings.  Now, just because they interpreted these beings as "gods" doesn't even necessarily mean that they were ... just that they were greatly superior to them in some way.  It's just statistically almost impossible that they could randomly come up with the exact same thing.
    If polytheism can be a reflection of a common experience, then so can belief in a flat Earth, and that is the obvious answer: we experience the Earth as locally flat, and ancient cultures had little basis in their scope of the world for inferring anything else.
    There’s no reason to say of the common belief that it’s “likely” due to some primitive revelation.

    Offline Theosist

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    Re: Are Globers Catholic?
    « Reply #44 on: April 29, 2018, 11:24:23 AM »
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  • Quote
    Finally, and most importantly, if you look at the cosmology of ancient cultures,
    When I look at actual traditions of the learned men of all ancient civilised cultures, and in particular at the esoteric doctrines of the “high” paganisms like Hermeticism, Zoroastrianism, Brahmanism, Taoism etc., I find not a belief in a geocentric cosmos , but one that coincides with Hebrew mysticism and Beoplatonism in rejecting any materialist conception of the cosmos at all, placing the infinite divine at the center of everything and Earth, the physical place where we reside, as an outer shell, the place farthest from its pure light next to the outer darkness of Hell, where matter becomes less and less subtle and the world more and more solidified as one moves outward.
    The usual cosmic spheres, Hell at the centre and the Empyrean at the farthest circuмference, is just an exoteric inversion of the view.

    If one wants to speculate about about primitive revelation, that, and not stories about flat disks carried atop the backs of giant space turtles, would be the place to begin.