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Author Topic: Answering the Flat Earthers - Robert Sungenis Live | Wed, Oct. 19 2022  (Read 16014 times)

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Offline ServusInutilisDomini

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Re: Answering the Flat Earthers - Robert Sungenis Live | Wed, Oct. 19 2022
« Reply #150 on: October 24, 2022, 12:35:38 PM »
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  • But the vast majority of Church Fathers REJECTED BoD.  5-6 of them rejected it explicitly, 1 (St. Augustine) floated it tentatively but then retracted it and issued some of the strongest anti-BoD statements in existence, and arguably a second (St. Ambrose), but the latter stated elsewhere that there's no hope of salvation for even the most devout catechumen who dies without the Sacrament, and his comments about Valentinian distinguish that he could be washed but not crowned.  So the Patristic evidence is very much against BoD, as both the Patristic scholar Father Jurgens admits, and even Karl "Anonymous Christian" Rahner admits.

    As for the later theologians, yes, I believe that they were mistaken.  And I am perfectly entitled to my opinion until the Church steps in and rules on it.
    I would like very much to see the Fathers quotes and Rahner's admission, that would be very interesting.

    Meanwhile I'm working with these quotes from St. Augustine...

    Quote
    City of God, Bk XIII, Ch.7:
    Chap.7.-- Of the Death Which the Unbaptized Suffer for the Confession of Christ:
    For whatever unbaptized persons die confessing Christ, this confession is of the same efficacy for the remission of sins as if they were washed in the sacred font of baptism. For He who said, "Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God," made also an exception in their favor, in that other sentence where He no less absolutely said, "Whosoever shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven;" and in another place, "Whosoever will lose his life for my sake, shall find it."
    Quote
    De Baptismo, in the Enchiridion Patristicuм, §1629-1630:
    That the place of baptism can sometimes assuredly be taken by suffering, the blessed Cyprian takes as no mean proof the words addressed to the thief who was not baptized: 'This day thou shalt be with me in paradise' (Luke 23:43). In considering which again, I find that not only suffering for the name of Christ can supply that which was lacking in respect of baptism [id quod ex baptismo deerat], but also faith and conversion of heart if perchance in straitened times it is impossible to arrange for the celebration of the mystery of baptism.
    Quote
    De Baptismo, Bk I, Ch.18, 28:
    ...
    Whilst then, that holy man entertained on the subject of baptism an opinion at variance with the true view, which was afterwards thoroughly examined and confirmed after most diligent consideration, his error was compensated by his remaining in Catholic unity, and by the abundance of his charity; and finally it was cleared away by the pruning-hook of martyrdom.

    ...and St. Ambrose:
    Quote
    De obitu Valentiniani consolation, Funeral Oration of the Emperor Valentinian II, 392 AD:
    51. But I hear that you grieve because he did not receive the sacrament of baptism. Tell me: What else is in your power other than the desire, the request? But he even had this desire for a long time, that, when he should come into Italy, he would be initiated, and recently he signified a desire to be baptized by me, and for this reason above all others he thought that I ought to be summoned. Has he not, then, the grace which he desired; has he not the grace which he requested? And because he asked, he received, and therefore is it said: "By whatsoever death the just man shall be overtaken, his soul shall be at rest." (Wisdom 4:7)
    52. Grant, therefore, O holy Father, to thy servant the gift which Moses received, because he saw in spirit; the gift which David merited, because he knew from revelation. Grant, I pray, to Thy servant Valentinian the gift which he longed for, the gift which he requested while in health, vigor, and security. If, stricken with sickness, he had deferred it, he would not be entirely without Thy mercy who has been cheated by the swiftness of time, not by his own wish. Grant, therefore, to Thy servant the gift of Thy grace which he never rejected, who on the day before his death refused to restore the privileges of the temples although he was pressed by those whom he could well have feared. A crowd of pagans was present, the Senate entreated, but he was not afraid to displease men so long as he pleased Thee alone in Christ. He who had Thy Spirit, how has he not received Thy grace?

    53. Or if the fact disturbs you that the mysteries have not been solemnly celebrated, then you should realize that not even martyrs are crowned if they are catechumens, for they are not crowned if they are not initiated. But if they are washed in their own blood, his piety and his desire have washed him, also.

    All quotes are from Sources of BoB and BoD. It clearly demonstrates that belief in BoD and BoB was abundantly present from the Church Fathers till today.

    I'm quite open to being proven wrong but against such an overwhelming consensus of Catechisms, Saints and Doctors I find it hard to believe you can find any substantial rejection of BoD or BoB.

    I would like to see as many quotes of Saints, catechisms, etc. explicitly denying BoD.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Answering the Flat Earthers - Robert Sungenis Live | Wed, Oct. 19 2022
    « Reply #151 on: October 24, 2022, 02:44:19 PM »
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  • I'm quite open to being proven wrong but against such an overwhelming consensus of Catechisms, Saints and Doctors I find it hard to believe you can find any substantial rejection of BoD or BoB.

    We should probably take this to a different thread.  5-6 Fathers rejected BoD.  This was admitted even by Bellarmine.  There's more support for BoB, but there are nuances there too.  But let's take it to another thread.  Start a thread in the Feeneyism ghetto and I'll respond there.  Of the two that can be cited in favor of BoD, St. Augustine later rejected the idea, and St. Ambrose makes statements that contradict the Valentinian oration, and IMO the key is that he states that those can be "washed" but not "crowned" to explain what would otherwise be a contradiction.