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Author Topic: A bit of Jesuit history  (Read 1116 times)

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Offline cassini

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A bit of Jesuit history
« on: Yesterday at 08:11:15 AM »
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  • ‘Before leaving this subject, we should recall that the suppression of the Jesuits in 1773 was prompted by the “rights of man” illuminists and Masons. When the Jesuits were suppressed, the Church lost her first line of defence in the “war of science against the Church”. The crime of their suppression is one of the worst in the world. Within one generation, the new “scientifically” educated youth embarked on wholesale revolution. The Reign of Terror in France, in 1796, was led by the first generation of non-Jesuit educated men. Every monarchy in Europe fell to revolution. Replaced with Republican, anti-Catholic governments, Europe was changed forever. By the end of 1850, the Masons had revolutionized every Catholic country in Europe and the America’s. Science was “enthroned” as the state religion. Heliocentricity became “fact”; and the Galileo Award became the highest Masonic award for outstanding “citizenship.”’--- KIPDF website: A study by John W. DeTar.

    The Jesuits (Society of Jesus) were officially restored by Pope Pius VII in 1814 through the papal bull Sollicitudo omnium ecclesiarum, after being suppressed by Pope Clement XIV in 1773 due to pressure from European monarchs, ending a 41-year suppression. The restoration began on August 7, 1814, allowing the Jesuits to resume their work worldwide. Google

    Unfortunately they came back as champions for evolution and heliocentrism..

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: A bit of Jesuit history
    « Reply #1 on: Yesterday at 08:37:41 AM »
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  • So, the body of St. Ignatius was still warm in his grave when the Jesuits had already turned into bad news, and there was good reason for their suppression.  I still feel that the lifting of said suppression was one of the greatest papal mistakes in history.  They started early by requesting dispensation from the Divine Office so they could pursue various secular interests.  Of course, despite the "suppression", the Jesuits kept operating anyway, sheltered by some monarchs with whom they had ingratiated themselves, and otherwise under cover.

    Long before these events, the Jesuits had championed Molinist thinking, and were among the earlies enemies of EENS dogma.


    Offline Freind

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    Re: A bit of Jesuit history
    « Reply #2 on: Yesterday at 12:02:31 PM »
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  • ‘Before leaving this subject, we should recall that the suppression of the Jesuits in 1773 was prompted by the “rights of man” illuminists and Masons. When the Jesuits were suppressed, the Church lost her first line of defence in the “war of science against the Church”. The crime of their suppression is one of the worst in the world. Within one generation, the new “scientifically” educated youth embarked on wholesale revolution. The Reign of Terror in France, in 1796, was led by the first generation of non-Jesuit educated men. Every monarchy in Europe fell to revolution. Replaced with Republican, anti-Catholic governments, Europe was changed forever. By the end of 1850, the Masons had revolutionized every Catholic country in Europe and the America’s. Science was “enthroned” as the state religion. Heliocentricity became “fact”; and the Galileo Award became the highest Masonic award for outstanding “citizenship.”’--- KIPDF website: A study by John W. DeTar.

    The Jesuits (Society of Jesus) were officially restored by Pope Pius VII in 1814 through the papal bull Sollicitudo omnium ecclesiarum, after being suppressed by Pope Clement XIV in 1773 due to pressure from European monarchs, ending a 41-year suppression. The restoration began on August 7, 1814, allowing the Jesuits to resume their work worldwide. Google

    Unfortunately they came back as champions for evolution and heliocentrism..

    The Church doesn't err. Evolution is allowed as long at we believe the soul was immediately created by God thus creating the human.

    "The Church" has allowed heliocentrism to be taught everywhere Catholic schools of learning were functioning for many generations, not just connected with Jesuits. The divine Church cannot allow such if such were a danger to souls.

    Offline Freind

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    Re: A bit of Jesuit history
    « Reply #3 on: Yesterday at 12:09:01 PM »
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  • So, the body of St. Ignatius was still warm in his grave when the Jesuits had already turned into bad news, and there was good reason for their suppression.  I still feel that the lifting of said suppression was one of the greatest papal mistakes in history. 

    These two sentences maintain a contradiction.

    Quote from: Ladislaus
    They started early by requesting dispensation from the Divine Office so they could pursue various secular interests. 

    Nothing wrong with that as long as they obey the Pope.

    Quote from: Ladislaus
    Of course, despite the "suppression", the Jesuits kept operating anyway, sheltered by some monarchs with whom they had ingratiated themselves, and otherwise under cover.

    Nothing wrong with that, and the Church liked it that way. They didn't really want to suppress their work, they just wanted to appease the enemies of the Church and its dangers to some extent.

    Quote from: Ladislaus
    Long before these events, the Jesuits had championed Molinist thinking, and were among the earliest enemies of EENS dogma.

    Nonsense.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: A bit of Jesuit history
    « Reply #4 on: Yesterday at 06:20:58 PM »
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  • The Church doesn't err. Evolution is allowed as long at we believe the soul was immediately created by God thus creating the human.

    "The Church" has allowed heliocentrism to be taught everywhere Catholic schools of learning were functioning for many generations, not just connected with Jesuits. The divine Church cannot allow such if such were a danger to souls.

    Church doesn't err when teaching something to the Universal Church.  But the Church can err in permitting various positions to be held?  So, the Church positively condemned heliocentrism as HERESY, and that condemnation had papal approval.  Then the Church allowed heliocentrism.  These two contradict one another, so the Church had "erred" either the first time or the second time.  So, the error would be the second time, since it's a prudential judgment and not a teaching.  Unfortunatley, dogmatic SVism have absurdly exaggerated the scope of infallibility in overreacting to the errors of R&R, which excessively minimize it.  They exaggerate infallibility to absurd lengths that NO THEOLOGIAN writing after Vatican I and before Vatican II ever held.

    Church condemned usury, and then stopped condeming it.

    Church permitted both Thomism and Molinism, where each group accused the other of heresy, and both cannot be true, so in permitting them both, it permitted something incorrect.

    Pius XII permitted DISCUSSION of evolution ... not even adherence to it, much less did he teach it.  That was an unmitigated disaster, along with a number of his other decisions.

    Dodgmatic SVism has indeed trended toward the papolatry that many R&R accuse all SVs of, where Popes are these divine oracles that are infallible every time they pass wind ... or even infallible in never being able to fail to condemn error.

    Honorius was anathematized by Third Constantinople for failing to condemn various propostiions related to monothelitism, so either Honorius erroed or III Constantinople (and Pope Stephen II who ratified it) did.

    Stuff like this tends to turn Catholic teaching regarding papal infallibility into a laughing stock.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: A bit of Jesuit history
    « Reply #5 on: Yesterday at 06:22:12 PM »
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  • These two sentences maintain a contradiction.

    I see no contradiction.  Explain.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: A bit of Jesuit history
    « Reply #6 on: Yesterday at 06:26:16 PM »
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  • Nothing wrong with that as long as they obey the Pope.

    There's plenty wrong with emphasizing activity over prayer, where you dispense with the prayer that was considered indispensible from time immemorial for all priests to permit.

    Then you idiotically contradict yourself when you say that the Jesuits did nothing wrong in defying their suppression, because it's what the Church "really wanted".  That's absurd.  So they Jesuits can read the minds of the Pope that the Pope REALLY WANTED them to not be suppressed even after suppressing them, and they were suppressed just by enemies of the Church.  This was after you said that there's nothing wrong with them requesting dispensation from Divine Office "provided they obeyd the Pope" ... I guess, then, except of they decide the Pope "didn't really mean it".

    Comeo on, man ... you can do better than this.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: A bit of Jesuit history
    « Reply #7 on: Yesterday at 06:30:00 PM »
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  • Nonsense.

    Another idiotic comment.  Jesuits were in fact predominantly Molinists ... Molina himself being a Jesuit.  In terms of being enemies of EENS dogma, that's well docuмented, that the earliest fabricators of the "Rewarder God" innovation (after 1500 years of unanimious teaching and belief that explicit faith in Christ is necessary by necessity of means for salvation, something confirmed later by the Holy Office).  This theory then began multiplying and then blended in with Molinism to basically lead to the modern Jesuits like Karl "Anonymous Christian" Rahner, simply a logical progressoin of Jesuit naturalism.

    You just spew bullshit without any evidence, based on what you want to be true, oblivious to how you contradict yourself from one sentence to another, and cite no evidence or arguments for any of your crap.

    But you just declare it to be "nonsense" and that makes it so.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: A bit of Jesuit history
    « Reply #8 on: Yesterday at 06:32:49 PM »
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  • So .. which judgment was in error ..

    1) when the Church condemned heliocentrism as heresy (non-gencentrism as proximate to heresy) OR

    2) when the Church permitted (tacitly by simply failing to condemn it when it re-emerged later) ?

    One or the other must be in error.  If it's permissible to hold to heliocentrism, as you claim, that the condemnation with the note of heresy was in error.  If the condemnation of heliocentrism as heretical was not in error, then it's not permissible to hold to heliocentrism or even to entertain it as a possibility.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: A bit of Jesuit history
    « Reply #9 on: Yesterday at 06:52:01 PM »
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  • Condemnation of Heliocentrism was ... explicit and formal, with full papal approbation.

    Lifting of the Condemnation ... never happened explicitly but only implicitly (until Wojtyla, but then we can all agree to ignore him).  Benedict XIV permitted the removal of heliocentric books from the Index.  Galileo's books remained on the Index until the early 1800s.  Pope Pius VII permitted some heliocentric books to be published in Rome, and the Holy Office under him said that authors / books may convey the Copernican system.  So not a theological statement, just a practical one with the implication that it's no longer considered heresy, since if the Pope considered it heresy, he would not permit it to be dealt with.

    Now, I must have missed the part in Vatican I where the Pope is infallible in failing to condemn error by tacitly allowing it to be held in removing books from the Index, or in failing to condemn error in general, since III Constantinople and Pope Stephen II anathematized Honorius precisely for failing to condemn error.

    We can ignore where Wojtyla apologized in 1992 for the injustice done to Galileo, but in these other cases there was never any direct rejection of the Holy Office decision against Galileo (the condemnation of heresy).

    Both were issued by the Holy Office, so some theologians hold that Holy Office decrees aren't infallible per se.  But if EITHER of these has greater weight or authority, then it's clearly the emphatic and explicit condemnation of heliocentrism as heresy, and non-geocentrism as proximate to heresy, rather than the "OK, you can write about it in your books".  But the two are incompatible in in one or the other the Church or the Holy Office, or someone "erred".

    Offline cassini

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    Re: A bit of Jesuit history
    « Reply #10 on: Today at 06:30:03 AM »
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  • "The Church" has allowed heliocentrism to be taught everywhere Catholic schools of learning were functioning for many generations, not just connected with Jesuits. The divine Church cannot allow such if such were a danger to souls.

    In 1616, the Holy Office, on Pope Paul V’s order, stopped Galileo's assertion by declaring the following.

    (1) “That the sun is in the centre of the world and altogether immovable by local movement, was unanimously declared to be “foolish, philosophically absurd, and formally heretical, inasmuch as it expressly contradicts the declarations of Holy Scripture in many passages, according to the proper meaning of the language used, and the sense in which they have been expounded and understood by the Fathers and theologians.”

     Pope Urban VIII confirmed this heresy in 1633.

    “Invoking, then, the most holy Name of our Lord Jesus Christ, and that of His most glorious Mother Mary ever Virgin, by this our definitive sentence  We say, pronounce, judge, and declare, that you, the said Galileo… have rendered yourself to this Holy Office vehemently suspected of heresy, that is, of having believed and held a doctrine that is false and contrary to the sacred and divine Scriptures. and that an opinion can be held and defended as probable after it has been declared and defined to be contrary to Holy Scripture.’--- Holy Office, 1633

    Dear Friend, this 'allowance' you defend was based on a scandalous ploy conjured up by Fr Olivieri, Commissary General of the Inquisition in 1820. He told the Holy Office the following,

     ‘I have demonstrated (I hope incontrovertibly), the system had not been condemned as regards astronomical motions of terrestrial rotation and translation, that is, in its foundation and per se; but it had been condemned as regards the terrestrial difficulties besetting the doctrine of its defenders. Thus now that the system is taught without such difficulties, it is no longer subject to the condemnation.’--- Submission to Pope Pius VII's holy office

    Here above Olivieri asserts that the heresy condemned in 1616 was a heliocentrism that had a moving Earth with violent winds all over it, caused by its rotation and orbital speed. This terrestrial difficulties ploy was an invention by Olivieri to have his doctrinal way. In truth, there was never such a reason why that kind of heliocentrism was confirmed as formal heresy in 1616. Olivieri then admits to the infallibility of Pope Paul V’s decree.

     
    ‘In his “motives” the Most Rev. Anfossi puts forth “the unrevisability of pontifical decrees.” But we have already proved that this is saved: the doctrine in question at the time was infected with a devastating motion, which is certainly contrary to the Sacred Scriptures, as it was declared.’--- Retrying Galileo, p.213

    Believe it or not, Pope Pius VII fell for this violent heliocentrism ploy. With his believing heliocentrism was proven by science, he too wanted a way out of the 1616 decree. The final outcome of Olivieri’s report resulted in the following 1820 decree:

    ‘The Assessor of the Holy Office has referred the request of Giuseppe Settele, Professor of Astronomy at La Sapienza University, regarding permission to publish his work Elements of Astronomy  in which he espouses the common opinion of the astronomers of our time regarding the Earth’s daily and yearly motions, to His Holiness through Divine Providence, Pope Pius VII… His Holiness has decreed that no obstacles exist for those who sustain Copernicus’s affirmation regarding the Earth’s movement in the manner in which it is affirmed today [non-violent], even by Catholic authors. He has, moreover, suggested the insertion of several notations into this work, aimed at demonstrating that the above-mentioned affirmation, as it is has come to be understood, does not present any difficulties; difficulties that existed in times past, prior to the subsequent astronomical observations that have now occurred. [Pope Pius VII] has also recommended that the implementation be given to the Cardinal Secretary of the Sacred Congregation and Master of the Sacred Apostolic Palace [Fr Anfossi]. He is now appointed the task of bringing to an end any concerns and criticisms regarding the printing of this book, and, at the same time, ensuring that in the future, regarding the publication of such works, permission is sought from the Cardinal Vicar whose signature will not be given without the authorization of the Superior of his Order.’

    And that dear Friend is how heresy entered the Catholic Church, by conjuring up a false 1616 decree to avoid a conflict with a SUPPOSEDLY PROVEN HELIOCENTRISM. It is known as keeping your cake while eating it.


    Offline cassini

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    Re: A bit of Jesuit history
    « Reply #11 on: Today at 07:29:21 AM »
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  • The Church doesn't err. Evolution is allowed as long at we believe the soul was immediately created by God thus creating the human.

    True, the Church doesn't err. But churchmen do.

    After the 1820 U-turn on Biblical geocentrism held by the Church, popes were 'embarrassed' and humiliated by the Galileo affair. Never again would any pope allow a condemnation of a 'SCIENTIFIC' THEORY in case it too was 'proven' like Galileo's was, or so they thought. So when Lyell's long-ages and Charles Darwin, in his book, the Descent of Man (1871), wrote about the evolution of creatures over millions of years, not only did any pope declare them as heresies, but did not put any such 'scientific' book on the Index. On the contrary, popes began to divinise natural theories of origins.

    Darwin’s greatest contribution to science is that he completed the Copernican Revolution by drawing out for biology the notion of nature as a system of matter in motion governed by natural laws. With Darwin’s discovery of natural selection, the origin and adaptations of organisms were brought into the realm of science. The adaptive features of organisms could now be explained, like the phenomena of the inanimate world, as the result of natural processes, without recourse to an Intelligent Designer. The Copernican and the Darwinian Revolutions may be seen as the two stages of the one Scientific Revolution. They jointly ushered in the beginning of science in the modern sense of the word: explanation through natural laws.’---F J. Alyala’s website. 

    We see then, it was the 1820 U-turn that put MODERNISM into the Church. With both Church and science now PROMOTING a natural view of ORIGINS rather than the SUPERNATURAL creation of Genesis, millions lost their supernaturail faith. next came the Jesuit Monsignor Abbé Georges Lemaître (1894-1966) 1931 BIG BANG .
    The result of the Galilean REFORMATION is what we have today. A Church of man rather than a Church of God and His Genesis.

    Offline WorldsAway

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    Re: A bit of Jesuit history
    « Reply #12 on: Today at 07:56:20 AM »
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  • True, the Church doesn't err. But churchmen do.

    After the 1820 U-turn on Biblical geocentrism held by the Church...
    Good morning, Cassini. Great posts

    Will your book, The Earthmovers, ever be available in print form?

    John 15:19  If you had been of the world, the world would love its own: but because you are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

    Offline Freind

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    Re: A bit of Jesuit history
    « Reply #13 on: Today at 08:02:32 AM »
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  • Church doesn't err when teaching something to the Universal Church.  But the Church can err in permitting various positions to be held?  So, the Church positively condemned heliocentrism as HERESY, and that condemnation had papal approval.  Then the Church allowed heliocentrism.  These two contradict one another, so the Church had "erred" either the first time or the second time.  So, the error would be the second time, since it's a prudential judgment and not a teaching.  Unfortunatley, dogmatic SVism have absurdly exaggerated the scope of infallibility in overreacting to the errors of R&R, which excessively minimize it.  They exaggerate infallibility to absurd lengths that NO THEOLOGIAN writing after Vatican I and before Vatican II ever held.

    Church condemned usury, and then stopped condeming it.

    Church permitted both Thomism and Molinism, where each group accused the other of heresy, and both cannot be true, so in permitting them both, it permitted something incorrect.

    Pius XII permitted DISCUSSION of evolution ... not even adherence to it, much less did he teach it.  That was an unmitigated disaster, along with a number of his other decisions.

    Dodgmatic SVism has indeed trended toward the papolatry that many R&R accuse all SVs of, where Popes are these divine oracles that are infallible every time they pass wind ... or even infallible in never being able to fail to condemn error.

    Honorius was anathematized by Third Constantinople for failing to condemn various propostiions related to monothelitism, so either Honorius erroed or III Constantinople (and Pope Stephen II who ratified it) did.

    Stuff like this tends to turn Catholic teaching regarding papal infallibility into a laughing stock.

    Your pass wind comments sounds just like Luther!  No, YOU tend to turn Catholic teaching into a laughing stock. You don't understand that the Church can condemn something for EXTRINSIC reasons, and then later approve of the same because the extrinsic reasons change. Sometimes at first the danger is looked at as possibly intrinsic and later found to only be dangerous for extrinsic reasons.

    Offline cassini

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    Re: A bit of Jesuit history
    « Reply #14 on: Today at 08:04:57 AM »
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  • Good morning, Cassini. Great posts

    Will your book, The Earthmovers, ever be available in print form?


    Hopefully yes, I have asked my son to get it printed if i go before that.