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Author Topic: A bit of Jesuit history  (Read 458 times)

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Offline cassini

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A bit of Jesuit history
« on: Today at 08:11:15 AM »
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    • ‘Before leaving this subject, we should recall that the suppression of the Jesuits in 1773 was prompted by the “rights of man” illuminists and Masons. When the Jesuits were suppressed, the Church lost her first line of defence in the “war of science against the Church”. The crime of their suppression is one of the worst in the world. Within one generation, the new “scientifically” educated youth embarked on wholesale revolution. The Reign of Terror in France, in 1796, was led by the first generation of non-Jesuit educated men. Every monarchy in Europe fell to revolution. Replaced with Republican, anti-Catholic governments, Europe was changed forever. By the end of 1850, the Masons had revolutionized every Catholic country in Europe and the America’s. Science was “enthroned” as the state religion. Heliocentricity became “fact”; and the Galileo Award became the highest Masonic award for outstanding “citizenship.”’--- KIPDF website: A study by John W. DeTar.

    The Jesuits (Society of Jesus) were officially restored by Pope Pius VII in 1814 through the papal bull Sollicitudo omnium ecclesiarum, after being suppressed by Pope Clement XIV in 1773 due to pressure from European monarchs, ending a 41-year suppression. The restoration began on August 7, 1814, allowing the Jesuits to resume their work worldwide. Google

    Unfortunately they came back as champions for evolution and heliocentrism..
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    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: A bit of Jesuit history
    « Reply #1 on: Today at 08:37:41 AM »
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    • So, the body of St. Ignatius was still warm in his grave when the Jesuits had already turned into bad news, and there was good reason for their suppression.  I still feel that the lifting of said suppression was one of the greatest papal mistakes in history.  They started early by requesting dispensation from the Divine Office so they could pursue various secular interests.  Of course, despite the "suppression", the Jesuits kept operating anyway, sheltered by some monarchs with whom they had ingratiated themselves, and otherwise under cover.

    Long before these events, the Jesuits had championed Molinist thinking, and were among the earlies enemies of EENS dogma.
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    Offline Freind

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    Re: A bit of Jesuit history
    « Reply #2 on: Today at 12:02:31 PM »
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    • Quote from: cassini on Today at 08:11:15 AM
    ‘Before leaving this subject, we should recall that the suppression of the Jesuits in 1773 was prompted by the “rights of man” illuminists and Masons. When the Jesuits were suppressed, the Church lost her first line of defence in the “war of science against the Church”. The crime of their suppression is one of the worst in the world. Within one generation, the new “scientifically” educated youth embarked on wholesale revolution. The Reign of Terror in France, in 1796, was led by the first generation of non-Jesuit educated men. Every monarchy in Europe fell to revolution. Replaced with Republican, anti-Catholic governments, Europe was changed forever. By the end of 1850, the Masons had revolutionized every Catholic country in Europe and the America’s. Science was “enthroned” as the state religion. Heliocentricity became “fact”; and the Galileo Award became the highest Masonic award for outstanding “citizenship.”’--- KIPDF website: A study by John W. DeTar.

    The Jesuits (Society of Jesus) were officially restored by Pope Pius VII in 1814 through the papal bull Sollicitudo omnium ecclesiarum, after being suppressed by Pope Clement XIV in 1773 due to pressure from European monarchs, ending a 41-year suppression. The restoration began on August 7, 1814, allowing the Jesuits to resume their work worldwide. Google

    Unfortunately they came back as champions for evolution and heliocentrism..

    The Church doesn't err. Evolution is allowed as long at we believe the soul was immediately created by God thus creating the human.

    "The Church" has allowed heliocentrism to be taught everywhere Catholic schools of learning were functioning for many generations, not just connected with Jesuits. The divine Church cannot allow such if such were a danger to souls.
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    Offline Freind

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    Re: A bit of Jesuit history
    « Reply #3 on: Today at 12:09:01 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on Today at 08:37:41 AM
    So, the body of St. Ignatius was still warm in his grave when the Jesuits had already turned into bad news, and there was good reason for their suppression.  I still feel that the lifting of said suppression was one of the greatest papal mistakes in history. 

    These two sentences maintain a contradiction.

    Quote from: Ladislaus
    They started early by requesting dispensation from the Divine Office so they could pursue various secular interests. 

    Nothing wrong with that as long as they obey the Pope.

    Quote from: Ladislaus
    Of course, despite the "suppression", the Jesuits kept operating anyway, sheltered by some monarchs with whom they had ingratiated themselves, and otherwise under cover.

    Nothing wrong with that, and the Church liked it that way. They didn't really want to suppress their work, they just wanted to appease the enemies of the Church and its dangers to some extent.

    Quote from: Ladislaus
    Long before these events, the Jesuits had championed Molinist thinking, and were among the earliest enemies of EENS dogma.

    Nonsense.
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    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: A bit of Jesuit history
    « Reply #4 on: Today at 06:20:58 PM »
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    • Quote from: Freind on Today at 12:02:31 PM
    The Church doesn't err. Evolution is allowed as long at we believe the soul was immediately created by God thus creating the human.

    "The Church" has allowed heliocentrism to be taught everywhere Catholic schools of learning were functioning for many generations, not just connected with Jesuits. The divine Church cannot allow such if such were a danger to souls.

    Church doesn't err when teaching something to the Universal Church.  But the Church can err in permitting various positions to be held?  So, the Church positively condemned heliocentrism as HERESY, and that condemnation had papal approval.  Then the Church allowed heliocentrism.  These two contradict one another, so the Church had "erred" either the first time or the second time.  So, the error would be the second time, since it's a prudential judgment and not a teaching.  Unfortunatley, dogmatic SVism have absurdly exaggerated the scope of infallibility in overreacting to the errors of R&R, which excessively minimize it.  They exaggerate infallibility to absurd lengths that NO THEOLOGIAN writing after Vatican I and before Vatican II ever held.

    Church condemned usury, and then stopped condeming it.

    Church permitted both Thomism and Molinism, where each group accused the other of heresy, and both cannot be true, so in permitting them both, it permitted something incorrect.

    Pius XII permitted DISCUSSION of evolution ... not even adherence to it, much less did he teach it.  That was an unmitigated disaster, along with a number of his other decisions.

    Dodgmatic SVism has indeed trended toward the papolatry that many R&R accuse all SVs of, where Popes are these divine oracles that are infallible every time they pass wind ... or even infallible in never being able to fail to condemn error.

    Honorius was anathematized by Third Constantinople for failing to condemn various propostiions related to monothelitism, so either Honorius erroed or III Constantinople (and Pope Stephen II who ratified it) did.

    Stuff like this tends to turn Catholic teaching regarding papal infallibility into a laughing stock.
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    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: A bit of Jesuit history
    « Reply #5 on: Today at 06:22:12 PM »
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    • Quote from: Freind on Today at 12:09:01 PM
    These two sentences maintain a contradiction.

    I see no contradiction.  Explain.
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    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: A bit of Jesuit history
    « Reply #6 on: Today at 06:26:16 PM »
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    • Quote from: Freind on Today at 12:09:01 PM
    Nothing wrong with that as long as they obey the Pope.

    There's plenty wrong with emphasizing activity over prayer, where you dispense with the prayer that was considered indispensible from time immemorial for all priests to permit.

    Then you idiotically contradict yourself when you say that the Jesuits did nothing wrong in defying their suppression, because it's what the Church "really wanted".  That's absurd.  So they Jesuits can read the minds of the Pope that the Pope REALLY WANTED them to not be suppressed even after suppressing them, and they were suppressed just by enemies of the Church.  This was after you said that there's nothing wrong with them requesting dispensation from Divine Office "provided they obeyd the Pope" ... I guess, then, except of they decide the Pope "didn't really mean it".

    Comeo on, man ... you can do better than this.
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    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: A bit of Jesuit history
    « Reply #7 on: Today at 06:30:00 PM »
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    • Quote from: Freind on Today at 12:09:01 PM
    Nonsense.

    Another idiotic comment.  Jesuits were in fact predominantly Molinists ... Molina himself being a Jesuit.  In terms of being enemies of EENS dogma, that's well docuмented, that the earliest fabricators of the "Rewarder God" innovation (after 1500 years of unanimious teaching and belief that explicit faith in Christ is necessary by necessity of means for salvation, something confirmed later by the Holy Office).  This theory then began multiplying and then blended in with Molinism to basically lead to the modern Jesuits like Karl "Anonymous Christian" Rahner, simply a logical progressoin of Jesuit naturalism.

    You just spew bullshit without any evidence, based on what you want to be true, oblivious to how you contradict yourself from one sentence to another, and cite no evidence or arguments for any of your crap.

    But you just declare it to be "nonsense" and that makes it so.
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    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: A bit of Jesuit history
    « Reply #8 on: Today at 06:32:49 PM »
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    • So .. which judgment was in error ..

    1) when the Church condemned heliocentrism as heresy (non-gencentrism as proximate to heresy) OR

    2) when the Church permitted (tacitly by simply failing to condemn it when it re-emerged later) ?

    One or the other must be in error.  If it's permissible to hold to heliocentrism, as you claim, that the condemnation with the note of heresy was in error.  If the condemnation of heliocentrism as heretical was not in error, then it's not permissible to hold to heliocentrism or even to entertain it as a possibility.
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    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: A bit of Jesuit history
    « Reply #9 on: Today at 06:52:01 PM »
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    • Condemnation of Heliocentrism was ... explicit and formal, with full papal approbation.

    Lifting of the Condemnation ... never happened explicitly but only implicitly (until Wojtyla, but then we can all agree to ignore him).  Benedict XIV permitted the removal of heliocentric books from the Index.  Galileo's books remained on the Index until the early 1800s.  Pope Pius VII permitted some heliocentric books to be published in Rome, and the Holy Office under him said that authors / books may convey the Copernican system.  So not a theological statement, just a practical one with the implication that it's no longer considered heresy, since if the Pope considered it heresy, he would not permit it to be dealt with.

    Now, I must have missed the part in Vatican I where the Pope is infallible in failing to condemn error by tacitly allowing it to be held in removing books from the Index, or in failing to condemn error in general, since III Constantinople and Pope Stephen II anathematized Honorius precisely for failing to condemn error.

    We can ignore where Wojtyla apologized in 1992 for the injustice done to Galileo, but in these other cases there was never any direct rejection of the Holy Office decision against Galileo (the condemnation of heresy).

    Both were issued by the Holy Office, so some theologians hold that Holy Office decrees aren't infallible per se.  But if EITHER of these has greater weight or authority, then it's clearly the emphatic and explicit condemnation of heliocentrism as heresy, and non-geocentrism as proximate to heresy, rather than the "OK, you can write about it in your books".  But the two are incompatible in in one or the other the Church or the Holy Office, or someone "erred".
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