Author Topic: 50 Plus Reasons The Earth Is Not Flat (Read 251058 times)

Neil Obstat · « **Reply #1290 on:** May 07, 2018, 04:41:48 AM »

Quote from: aryzia on May 05, 2018, 09:29:46 PM

A line and an arc are as different to [from?] each other as a plane and a sphere are to [from] each other.

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You weren't paying attention, as usual.
The topic of the video is: FOR SMALL AREAS on the earth an arc can be considered a line.
It's only when the area is LARGE that the curvature becomes relevant.
If we were on a planet the size of the moon the curvature would be much more apparent, but still not very obvious.
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Your bathroom mirror could have a bulge in it and you'd never know because it's not a large enough area.
Take that same bulge and expand it in a mirror over a few hundred feet in diameter and standing back, you'd see the distortion.
That's because a straight line over the large mirror would reveal an arc difference of an inch or two in the middle.
Whereas on your bathroom mirror, there would be no difference measurable because it's too small.
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Things are different from each other. Things are not different to each other.
Difference is a measure one thing's quality or magnitude from another thing.
Three from five is two. We don't say three to five when describing difference.

Theosist · « **Reply #1291 on:** May 07, 2018, 06:41:17 AM »

Quote from: Neil Obstat on May 07, 2018, 04:41:48 AM

.
You weren't paying attention, as usual.
The topic of the video is: FOR SMALL AREAS on the earth an arc can be considered a line.
It's only when the area is LARGE that the curvature becomes relevant.
If we were on a planet the size of the moon the curvature would be much more apparent, but still not very obvious.
.
Your bathroom mirror could have a bulge in it and you'd never know because it's not a large enough area.
Take that same bulge and expand it in a mirror over a few hundred feet in diameter and standing back, you'd see the distortion.
That's because a straight line over the large mirror would reveal an arc difference of an inch or two in the middle.
Whereas on your bathroom mirror, there would be no difference measurable because it's too small.
.
Things are different from each other. Things are not different to each other.
Difference is a measure one thing's quality or magnitude from another thing.
Three from five is two. We don't say three to five when describing difference.

All arcs are lines by definition. Since when did “line” come to mean “straight line”?

Neil Obstat · « **Reply #1292 on:** May 07, 2018, 06:56:51 AM »

Quote from: Theosist on May 07, 2018, 06:41:17 AM

All arcs are lines by definition. Since when did “line” come to mean “straight line”?

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I was referring to a means of measuring the curvature of the mirror, such as stretching a string taught across it.
This is analogous to a latitude or meridian line on the earth.
Over short distances on the curved surface of the earth, lines on the ground are presumed straight, not curved, even though they are short segments of an arc.
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All arcs projected on a paper worksheet or map appear as lines. You can call that "by definition" if you like.

Neil Obstat · « **Reply #1293 on:** May 07, 2018, 07:02:58 AM »

-.
Eugene Grossman gives a very pleasant presentation of celestial navigation and why it's important to know.
This was for classical navigation before the advent of GPS or satellite systems.
Note: Sailors who use GPS at open sea are hundreds of miles out of range for cell phone towers.
Only satellites provide ephemeris data for GPS receivers to compute latitude and longitude on the globe earth.
Lots of sailing experience and much insight in his material.
Looks like this was recorded in 1972 or 1984.
The sun moves at 900 miles per hour over the earth's surface. We know this because it makes a full trip around the world every day, 24 hours a day (approximately). That makes 360 degrees divided by 24, which is 15 degrees per hour, and 60 Nm/d x 15 dph = 900 mph. Notice the duration of a day doesn't change from summer solstice to winter solstice.
Lots of facts here remind us none of this marine navigation works unless you recognize the earth is a globe.
Unlike GPS which you can use even if you deny the existence of satellites.
Your zenith distance measures global arc from your celestial position to the GP of the sun, in degrees.
Nautical miles east/west at the equator are one minute of arc, but closer to the south pole they're like they are close to the north pole, which is proportionally less than the number of feet a nautical mile is at the equator. The only way longitude distance can be less closer to the south pole is because the meridian lines get CLOSER TOGETHER near the south pole just like they do near the north pole, in other words, the earth is a globe.
Second half is Paul Miller's turn. He also has an easy-to-watch style of presentation.
A great circle measurement conceptually cuts the earth in half, i.e., the globe earth.
Celestial navigation allows the navigator to find out where you are even when you have no idea where you are.
Declination of the sun above the equator is an angular measurement from the center of the globe earth to the center of the sun.
.

.
YouTube channel page gives outline of topics and times in the video:
Lecture 1 : Introduction to celestial Navigation Start
General Navigation Start at 02:55
Celestial Navigation start at 12:00
The Sextant 25:08
Sextant index error 28:44
Dip Correction 31:25
Sun Correction 33:38
Refraction & Parallax 35:17 -- Refraction correction necessary near the horizon because of false elevation of objects especially over the ocean.
Time 39:32
LAN = Local Apparent Noon 48:47
Navigational Triangle 49:39
Refraction Correction and Parallax Correction provided as charts in the navigation tables. 1:25:30
______________________________________________________________________________________
Lecture 2 : 53:30 Latitude & Longitude at Noon.

Neil Obstat · « **Reply #1294 on:** May 07, 2018, 05:58:16 PM »

Quote from: Theosist on May 07, 2018, 06:41:17 AM

All arcs are lines by definition. Since when did “line” come to mean “straight line”?

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Actually, when you say straight line you're truly saying pi (π).
Because pi is the diameter of a circle, and the diameter is always a straight line, therefore, a straight line is pi.
And equivalently, when pi is multiplied by the diameter the product is the circuмference of the circle, which is an arc.
A complete arc, all the way around the circle, which when viewed from the side is identical with the diameter.
Therefore, pi is a line, and pi is an arc, and the arc is a straight line, which becomes obvious when you look at the circle edgewise.

Neil Obstat · « **Reply #1295 on:** May 07, 2018, 06:17:40 PM »

Quote from: Neil Obstat on May 07, 2018, 07:02:58 AM

-.
Eugene Grossman gives a very pleasant presentation of celestial navigation and why it's important to know.
This was for classical navigation before the advent of GPS or satellite systems.
Note: Sailors who use GPS at open sea are hundreds of miles out of range for cell phone towers.
Only satellites provide ephemeris data for GPS receivers to compute latitude and longitude on the globe earth.
Lots of sailing experience and much insight in his material.
Looks like this was recorded in 1972 or 1984.
The sun moves at 900 miles per hour over the earth's surface. We know this because it makes a full trip around the world every day, 24 hours a day (approximately). That makes 360 degrees divided by 24, which is 15 degrees per hour, and 60 Nm/d x 15 dph = 900 mph. Notice the duration of a day doesn't change from summer solstice to winter solstice.
Lots of facts here remind us none of this marine navigation works unless you recognize the earth is a globe.
Unlike GPS which you can use even if you deny the existence of satellites.
Your zenith distance measures global arc from your celestial position to the GP of the sun, in degrees.
Nautical miles east/west at the equator are one minute of arc, but closer to the south pole they're like they are close to the north pole, which is proportionally less than the number of feet a nautical mile is at the equator. The only way longitude distance can be less closer to the south pole is because the meridian lines get CLOSER TOGETHER near the south pole just like they do near the north pole, in other words, the earth is a globe.
Second half is Paul Miller's turn. He also has an easy-to-watch style of presentation.
A great circle measurement conceptually cuts the earth in half, i.e., the globe earth.
Celestial navigation allows the navigator to find out where you are even when you have no idea where you are.
Declination of the sun above the equator is an angular measurement from the center of the globe earth to the center of the sun.
.

.
YouTube channel page gives outline of topics and times in the video:
Lecture 1 : Introduction to celestial Navigation Start
General Navigation Start at 02:55
Celestial Navigation start at 12:00
The Sextant 25:08
Sextant index error 28:44
Dip Correction 31:25
Sun Correction 33:38
Refraction & Parallax 35:17 -- Refraction correction necessary near the horizon because of false elevation of objects especially over the ocean.
Time 39:32
LAN = Local Apparent Noon 48:47
Navigational Triangle 49:39
Refraction Correction and Parallax Correction provided as charts in the navigation tables. 1:25:30
______________________________________________________________________________________
Lecture 2 : 53:30 Latitude & Longitude at Noon.

The video above has two parts.
The second part (Lecture 2), given by Paul Miller, is a detailed tour through filling out the standard forms for recording in standard notation for the ship's log your verified position at sea at a given point in time.
And it works for any ship at sea even when the navigator filling out the paperwork had no idea where the ship was before he started filling out the paperwork.
Any marine navigator capable of doing the job knows how to fill out that paperwork.
.

.
Now, it's possible to have a job filling out paperwork without being aware of the principles behind it.
It's possible to use formulas without knowing how to derive the formulas.
Consequently, it's possible for a navigator using these forms to arrive at the ship's verified position at sea, even though the navigator does not believe that the earth is spheroid, or that it's being treated as a perfect sphere.
Then he would be going through the motions of performing a job while not believing in the basis his job is built on.
.
Similarly, a person could go to Confession, confess his sins, receive absolution, do his penance, go to Mass, read the Mass prayers along with the priest so as to assist at Mass, listen to what the priest has to say, understand what is being said, pray the Rosary, receive Holy Communion, and after Mass even cordially socialize in the parish hall with other Catholics, all the while not believing in the Trinity, that Our Lord Jesus Christ is God, or in the doctrine of grace.
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It's possible to act like a Catholic while not believing what the Church teaches.
.
So don't be too shocked that there can be found one or more marine navigators who think the earth is "flat."
.

aryzia · « **Reply #1296 on:** May 07, 2018, 06:19:23 PM »

Quote from: Neil Obstat on May 07, 2018, 05:58:16 PM

.
Actually, when you say straight line you're truly saying pi (π).
Because pi is the diameter of a circle, and the diameter is always a straight line, therefore, a straight line is pi.
And equivalently, when pi is multiplied by the diameter the product is the circuмference of the circle, which is an arc.
A complete arc, all the way around the circle, which when viewed from the side is identical with the diameter.
Therefore, pi is a line, and pi is an arc, and the arc is a straight line, which becomes obvious when you look at the circle edgewise.

Here's some tp, you got a little bs on your keyboard.

Truth is Eternal · « **Reply #1297 on:** May 07, 2018, 06:29:47 PM »

Quote from: Neil Obstat on May 07, 2018, 06:17:40 PM

The video above has two parts.
The second part (Lecture 2), given by Paul Miller, is a detailed tour through filling out the standard forms for recording in standard notation for the ship's log your verified position at sea at a given point in time.
And it works for any ship at sea even when the navigator filling out the paperwork had no idea where the ship was before he started filling out the paperwork.
Any marine navigator capable of doing the job knows how to fill out that paperwork.
.

.
Now, it's possible to have a job filling out paperwork without being aware of the principles behind it.
It's possible to use formulas without knowing how to derive the formulas.
Consequently, it's possible for a navigator using these forms to arrive at the ship's verified position at sea, even though the navigator does not believe that the earth is spheroid, or that it's being treated as a perfect sphere.
Then he would be going through the motions of performing a job while not believing in the basis his job is built on.
.
Similarly, a person could go to Confession, confess his sins, receive absolution, do his penance, go to Mass, read the Mass prayers along with the priest so as to assist at Mass, listen to what the priest has to say, understand what is being said, pray the Rosary, receive Holy Communion, and after Mass even cordially socialize in the parish hall with other Catholics, all the while not believing in the Trinity, that Our Lord Jesus Christ is God, or in the doctrine of grace.
.
It's possible to act like a Catholic while not believing what the Church teaches.
.
So don't be too shocked that there can be found one or more marine navigators who think the earth is "flat."
.

Neil Obstat · « **Reply #1298 on:** May 07, 2018, 07:19:36 PM »

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The worksheet Paul Miller uses is called the LAN form, or Local Apparent Noon worksheet.
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The term "apparent" is deliberately employed because the sun's angle above the horizon at high noon is the objective for the calculation that follows, using charts for establishing your position at sea, however, to get this angle of the sun you do not directly measure the angle AT high noon. You take two sightings, one before noon and one an equal time after noon and then average the two to obtain an APPARENT local noon angle, called the LAN.
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The project of the video is background and steps for correctly filling out the form.
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At the end of the form, when you've done the work correctly, you will have your true position at sea.
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The process involves taking two sextant sightings of the sun, one before noon and one after noon.
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The two readings are averaged for the mean function at high noon.
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It is explained that you cannot get a reliable sextant reading at high noon, and the reasons why.
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That's why they use two readings, one before noon and a second one at the same time after noon.
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You keep track of how many minutes before noon it was when you took the first reading, and then you carefully time your second reading after noon to take place at the same number of minutes after noon that had elapsed from the first reading until noon.
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IOW the two readings are made at equal times before and after noon.
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I had known there is a lot of technicality involved in proper use of the sextant, but this was surprising to see.
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Neil Obstat · « **Reply #1299 on:** May 08, 2018, 12:47:36 PM »

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Paul Miller explains why you can't get a reliable sextant reading for the sun's angular distance above the horizon at high noon by taking the measurement at high noon.
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In other words, COUNTER-INTUITIVE.
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Here is another counter-intuitive fact of nature, explained by Walter Lewin, MIT Physics professor:
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https://youtu.be/XPUuF_dECVI?t=2753

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XPUuF_dECVI&feature=youtu.be&t=2753
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He's explaining a fact of nature which anyone can duplicate, anywhere on earth, by holding a similar apparatus in motion.
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Earlier in the same video he shows how a toy gyroscope works similarly.
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It makes no difference where one stands while doing this, or how one moves, even in an aircraft 40,000 ft elev., during free-fall, or in a submarine under water, in the Space Station hundreds of miles above the earth or while accelerating at 2 G in a rocket test launch.

Truth is Eternal · « **Reply #1300 on:** May 08, 2018, 01:11:56 PM »

Quote from: Neil Obstat on May 08, 2018, 12:47:36 PM

.
Paul Miller explains why you can't get a reliable sextant reading for the sun's angular distance above the horizon at high noon by taking the measurement at high noon.
.
In other words, COUNTER-INTUITIVE.
.
Here is another counter-intuitive fact of nature, explained by Walter Lewin, MIT Physics professor:
.
https://youtu.be/XPUuF_dECVI?t=2753

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XPUuF_dECVI&feature=youtu.be&t=2753
.
He's explaining a fact of nature which anyone can duplicate, anywhere on earth, by holding a similar apparatus in motion.
.
Earlier in the same video he shows how a toy gyroscope works similarly.
.
It makes no difference where one stands while doing this, or how one moves, even in an aircraft 40,000 ft elev., during free-fall, or in a submarine under water, in the Space Station hundreds of miles above the earth or while accelerating at 2 G in a rocket test launch.

happenby · « **Reply #1301 on:** May 08, 2018, 02:31:08 PM »

Rail lines throughout the United States and Europe (and all countries) are built on the level, and except to accommodate low grade hills and valleys, trains move along level rails only, without consideration whatsoever for "earth's curve"; this attested to by the engineers who built them. With literally thousands of miles of train track criss-crossing land, earth is proven not a globe.

Neil Obstat · « **Reply #1302 on:** May 08, 2018, 02:51:55 PM »

Quote from: Neil Obstat on February 12, 2018, 12:21:11 AM

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The earth's magnetic field is constantly changing. In the past, variation from year to year has been not so great so as to make estimates of location unreliable from place to place worldwide, and such practices as land surveying and navigation at sea have been able to use updated maps for currently reliable data. In recent years, however, the magnetic poles (called dip poles) of the earth have been moving more quickly such that services and trades that rely on currently updated locations of the dip poles have had to obtain more frequent assessment and updates.
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Observed north dip poles during 1831 - 2007 are yellow squares.
Modeled pole locations from 1590 to 2020 are circles progressing from blue to yellow.
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[Obviously, the locations for 2020, 2019, 2018 and 2017 are estimates. This present data is current as of 2015.]
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Magnetic poles are defined in different ways. They are commonly understood as positions on the Earth's surface where the geomagnetic field is vertical (i.e., perpendicular) to the ellipsoid. These north and south positions, called dip poles, do not need to be (and are not currently) antipodal. In principle the dip poles can be found by conducting a magnetic survey to determine where the field is vertical. Other definitions of geomagnetic poles depend on the way the poles are computed from a geomagnetic model. In practice the geomagnetic field is vertical on oval-shaped loci traced on a daily basis, with considerable variation from one day to the next.
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It has been long understood that dip poles migrate over time. In 1831, James Clark Ross located the north dip pole position in northern Canada. Natural Resources Canada (NRCan) tracked the North Magnetic Pole, which is slowly drifting across the Canadian Arctic, by periodically carrying out magnetic surveys to reestablish the Pole's location from 1948 to 1994. An international collaboration, led by a French fundraising association, Poly-Arctique, and involving NRCan, Institut de Physique du Globe de Paris and Bureau de Recherche Geologique et Miniere, added two locations of the North Magnetic Pole in 2001 and 2007. The most recent survey determined that the Pole is moving approximately north-northwest at 55 km per year.

Modeled pole locations for magnetic north from 1831 to 2020 [1831.000 - 2020.000 -- these are not observed north pole locations]:
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222.596 85.370 2011.000 217.521 85.676 2012.000 211.982 85.933 2013.000 206.059 86.138 2014.000 199.975 86.289 2015.000
193.710 86.395 2016.000 187.413 86.455 2017.000 181.245 86.471 2018.000 175.346 86.448 2019.000 169.818 86.391 2020.000
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[The years' data for 2015 and 2017 are in bold - degrees longitude west, degrees latitude north, year.]
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The cause of the earth's magnetic field is not actually known, but there are theories proposed that would explain it. It is thought that some large quantity of ferrous material in the earth's core is moving to produce this field, but how much iron, where exactly it's located and how fast it's moving are all unknowns and up for speculation. One thing scientists can agree on is that wherever this iron is precisely, it exists at a temperature of over 1,000 degrees Fahrenheit, or perhaps even 2,000, which would mean it would be molten at atmospheric pressure, however, since it is expected to have an ambient pressure of hundreds of atmospheres, the liquidity/solidity or whatever state it is in cannot be certain. In any event, since the magnetic poles of the earth are observed to in fact be moving, we can reasonably presume that the ferrous or iron mass deep within the earth must not only be moving so as to generate this field but must be moving in a variable manner, that is, moving differently today than it has moved in previous centuries.
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Since it is essentially unknown what forces are acting on the iron inside the earth, we cannot know for sure what kinds of changes the magnetic field will undergo in the future. We can presume to expect it to move in a somewhat predictable manner, but as you can see from the image above, in the years 1732 (George Washington's birthday and the square root of 3), 1859, 1890 and 1900 the north dip pole changed direction of drift quite abruptly and without apparent or observable cause as far as we know (the birth of Washington or the square root of 3 can't explain a pole shift), therefore a similar change could likewise occur in our present age and we have no way of predicting it or even of anticipating when or whether it will occur.
.

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I heard a news report that the shifting magnetic north dip pole continues to move according to latest measurements.
If that persists this way for a few more years (it's been going on since 1998 as the picture above shows) then that would put the magnetic north dip pole in northern Russia, when for the past 500 years it has been in northern Canada, and this may have been the case for all of recorded human history. So this present change is really big news.
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It's really big news, but it's not getting into news headlines.
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One commentator on this said that the MSM doesn't want to scare everyone, that is, not until scaring everyone is helpful for some agenda.
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aryzia · « **Reply #1303 on:** May 08, 2018, 05:22:29 PM »

Quote from: Neil Obstat on May 08, 2018, 02:51:55 PM

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I heard a news report that the shifting magnetic north dip pole continues to move according to latest measurements.
If that persists this way for a few more years (it's been going on since 1998 as the picture above shows) then that would put the magnetic north dip pole in northern Russia, when for the past 500 years it has been in northern Canada, and this may have been the case for all of recorded human history. So this present change is really big news.
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It's really big news, but it's not getting into news headlines.
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One commentator on this said that the MSM doesn't want to scare everyone, that is, not until scaring everyone is helpful for some agenda.
.

Where is this "magnetism" coming from?

Neil Obstat · « **Reply #1304 on:** May 08, 2018, 09:30:43 PM »

Quote from: aryzia on May 08, 2018, 05:22:29 PM

Where is this "magnetism" coming from?

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Your lack of understanding indicates a failed attempt to stay relevant in a discussion way above your head.

Author Topic: 50 Plus Reasons The Earth Is Not Flat (Read 251058 times)

Neil Obstat

Re: 50 Plus Reasons The Earth Is Not Flat

Theosist

Re: 50 Plus Reasons The Earth Is Not Flat

Neil Obstat

Re: 50 Plus Reasons The Earth Is Not Flat

Neil Obstat

Re: 50 Plus Reasons The Earth Is Not Flat

Neil Obstat

Re: 50 Plus Reasons The Earth Is Not Flat

Neil Obstat

Re: 50 Plus Reasons The Earth Is Not Flat

aryzia

Re: 50 Plus Reasons The Earth Is Not Flat

Truth is Eternal

Re: 50 Plus Reasons The Earth Is Not Flat

Neil Obstat

Re: 50 Plus Reasons The Earth Is Not Flat

Neil Obstat

Re: 50 Plus Reasons The Earth Is Not Flat

Truth is Eternal

Re: 50 Plus Reasons The Earth Is Not Flat

happenby

Re: 50 Plus Reasons The Earth Is Not Flat

Neil Obstat

Re: 50 Plus Reasons The Earth Is Not Flat

aryzia

Re: 50 Plus Reasons The Earth Is Not Flat

Neil Obstat

Re: 50 Plus Reasons The Earth Is Not Flat