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Author Topic: 50 Plus Reasons The Earth Is Not Flat  (Read 223590 times)

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Offline Neil Obstat

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Re: 50 Plus Reasons The Earth Is Not Flat
« Reply #1260 on: April 10, 2018, 09:08:59 PM »
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  • .
    That video link above got corrupted somehow - it was supposed to show this:
    .

    .--. .-.-.- ... .-.-.- ..-. --- .-. - .... . -.- .. -. --. -.. --- -- --..-- - .... . .--. --- .-- . .-. .- -. -.. -....- -....- .--- ..- ... - -.- .. -.. -.. .. -. --. .-.-.

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: 50 Plus Reasons The Earth Is Not Flat
    « Reply #1261 on: April 13, 2018, 07:27:28 PM »
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  • You mention above that every time someone claims that flat earth is a Catholic teaching then you are facing an error about the Church. But the thing is, I, for one, have not claimed that the flat earth is a Catholic teaching, and yet you have confronted me many times. So it can't just be that you are against the idea that the flat earth is a Catholic teaching. What I have maintained is that Scripture describes a flat earth, and that the Church Fathers (the early ones) have also maintained that the earth is flat. But you are even against Scripture describing a flat earth, and you apparently believe that the early Church Fathers were wrong.

    So please do not make this about the flat earth not being a Church teaching. You have shown to be very much against ANY views in Scripture and Tradition which show a flat earth. You are not being honest.

    The Catholic Church teaches that Scripture is inerrant.  Therefore, claiming that Scripture describes a flat earth necessarily implies that, according to the Church, the earth is flat.  Every time somebody says that Scripture teaches flat earth, it is, in effect, claiming this is Catholic teaching.

    Just about all the flat earth proponents here, including you, claim that Scripture teaches the earth is flat.  If Scripture did, in fact, say the earth is flat, then all Catholics would be bound to accept that the earth is flat because it is central to our faith that Scripture is divinely revealed and inerrant.

    However, the Church has allowed and even encouraged belief in a spherical earth. Virtually every Saint and Doctor of the Church (along with many other Catholics) after 800 AD , believed the earth is a globe.  If the Church actually understood Scripture as saying the earth is flat, why did she allow this error to persist?  She even promoted the Ptolemaic model, which included a spherical earth, defending it against the heliocentric models of Copernicus and Galileo. There is no sign of the Church having any problem with people believing the earth is a globe.

    The Church is the interpreter of Scripture.  These people who keep insisting that Scripture says the earth is flat are placing their personal interpretation of Scripture as higher than the Church's interpretation.  This is a very serious error and one I feel some obligation to oppose.

    While I do not expect to get through to the flat earthers, occasionally people come to this sub-forum genuinely seeking information.  I intend to post here from time to time so that such people will be able to see opposition to the errors of flat earthers.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: 50 Plus Reasons The Earth Is Not Flat
    « Reply #1262 on: April 13, 2018, 08:31:37 PM »
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  • The Catholic Church teaches that Scripture is inerrant.  Therefore, claiming that Scripture describes a flat earth necessarily implies that, according to the Church, the earth is flat.  Every time somebody says that Scripture teaches flat earth, it is, in effect, claiming this is Catholic teaching.

    I think that it's perfectly fine to say something like, "It is my opinion that Scripture teaches flat earth."  Once could make that case.  But it's obvious that the Church, at very least, tolerates globe earth ... and leaves it open for Catholics to hold that opinion.

    Similarly, I could say that I believe a certain position or proposition to be heresy, but I do not declare to be formally heretical those who hold it if the Church has not defined it.

    Offline aryzia

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    Re: 50 Plus Reasons The Earth Is Not Flat
    « Reply #1263 on: April 14, 2018, 11:05:12 AM »
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  • I think that it's perfectly fine to say something like, "It is my opinion that Scripture teaches flat earth."  Once could make that case.  But it's obvious that the Church, at very least, tolerates globe earth ... and leaves it open for Catholics to hold that opinion.

    Similarly, I could say that I believe a certain position or proposition to be heresy, but I do not declare to be formally heretical those who hold it if the Church has not defined it.
    The problem here isn't that the Church hasn't made a doctrinal statement that earth is flat, which all agree She hasn't, but, that the Church condemned the Copernican Doctrine that includes spherical earth. Despite that, people somehow want to hold portions of that condemned theory anyway. That kind of thinking probably doesn't lead one to the true God.

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: 50 Plus Reasons The Earth Is Not Flat
    « Reply #1264 on: April 14, 2018, 01:29:59 PM »
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  • I think that it's perfectly fine to say something like, "It is my opinion that Scripture teaches flat earth."  Once could make that case.  But it's obvious that the Church, at very least, tolerates globe earth ... and leaves it open for Catholics to hold that opinion.

    As you say, the Church (at the very least) leaves open the option of believing the earth is a sphere.  This means that these people who think that Scripture teaches flat earth, in effect, are saying that the Church has been wrong to do this.  If inerrant, God-inspired Scripture truly said that the earth were flat, it would be wrong for the Church to allow other views.  How would it be OK for the Church to say "Go ahead and disagree with Scripture if you want"?

    When people claim that Scripture teaches flat earth, they are necessarily implying that the Church has made a mistake in her interpretation of Scripture.  Not only is the implication there, sometimes people even say it explicitly, as WholeFoodsTrad did in a recent post :


    Quote
    All scripture is Divinely Inspired or "God breathed."  So, I think we should respect that and if The Church has a problem with it, then I think it ought to get inline with Scripture.  Although, as a Catholic I will ultimately submit to The Church, still I have no problem with correcting The Church, if I think it is wrong about something.  As a Catholic, that is my right.

    As you know, it is dogmatic teaching (Council of Trent) that the Church is the sole interpreter of Scripture.  There is no right to correct the Church if one feels she has misinterpreted Scripture.  Concerning those who do this, the Church says "let him be anathema".  It is not an allowable opinion to claim that Scripture teaches that the earth is flat because it is not compatible with accepting the Catholic position on her authority over Scripture.  We have many flat earthers on this forum who, either explicitly or implicitly reject this authority.  This goes beyond merely being incorrect and is a denial of dogma.


    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: 50 Plus Reasons The Earth Is Not Flat
    « Reply #1265 on: April 14, 2018, 01:44:36 PM »
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  • The problem here isn't that the Church hasn't made a doctrinal statement that earth is flat, which all agree She hasn't, but, that the Church condemned the Copernican Doctrine that includes spherical earth. Despite that, people somehow want to hold portions of that condemned theory anyway. That kind of thinking probably doesn't lead one to the true God.
    This is like saying that the Church is opposed to writing in Latin because she condemned the Copernican Doctrine which was written in Latin.

    Obviously there is no problem with writing in Latin.  That is not the aspect of De revolutionibus orbium coelestium that was condemned. Virtually everybody wrote scholarly works in Latin at that time.  It is clearly irrelevant to the condemnation.

    Similarly, virtually all the cosmological models at the time of Copernicus, including those promoted by the Church, included a spherical earth. The Church has no more problem with a spherical earth than with using the Latin language.  Both have been part of Church tradition for most of her history.

    Offline aryzia

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    Re: 50 Plus Reasons The Earth Is Not Flat
    « Reply #1266 on: April 14, 2018, 03:37:07 PM »
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  • This is like saying that the Church is opposed to writing in Latin because she condemned the Copernican Doctrine which was written in Latin.

    Obviously there is no problem with writing in Latin.  That is not the aspect of De revolutionibus orbium coelestium that was condemned. Virtually everybody wrote scholarly works in Latin at that time.  It is clearly irrelevant to the condemnation.

    Similarly, virtually all the cosmological models at the time of Copernicus, including those promoted by the Church, included a spherical earth. The Church has no more problem with a spherical earth than with using the Latin language.  Both have been part of Church tradition for most of her history.
    The above is a common reasoning error.  The erroneous conclusion resulted from a non sequitur because average jane is attempting to compare apples and oranges. 

    Language cannot (in and of itself) be false, nor a premise be false just for being written in a particular language. 
    On the other hand, when a premise is condemned, it is condemned BECAUSE it (in and of itself) is false.

    Therefore, by making an untenable comparison she wound up with a false conclusion.  This woman's error is found in her reasoning process.       

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: 50 Plus Reasons The Earth Is Not Flat
    « Reply #1267 on: April 14, 2018, 05:46:49 PM »
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  • Language cannot (in and of itself) be false, nor a premise be false just for being written in a particular language.  
    It certainly is possible for a given language to be inappropriate and worthy of condemnation and/or opposition.  I think most of us here object to Mass in the vernacular for such a reason.
      
    But even if my analogy were ineligible, the point would stand: the condemnation of Copernican heliocentrism obviously does not include the proposition that the earth is a sphere; this was part of cosmological models of which the Church approved and promoted.

    There is no basis for your claim that the Church condemns spherical earth.  On the contrary, this was the most widely accepted Catholic view for most of our history.


    Offline happenby

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    Re: 50 Plus Reasons The Earth Is Not Flat
    « Reply #1268 on: April 14, 2018, 06:33:35 PM »
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  • It certainly is possible for a given language to be inappropriate and worthy of condemnation and/or opposition.  I think most of us here object to Mass in the vernacular for such a reason.
      
    But even if my analogy were ineligible, the point would stand: the condemnation of Copernican heliocentrism obviously does not include the proposition that the earth is a sphere; this was part of cosmological models of which the Church approved and promoted.

    There is no basis for your claim that the Church condemns spherical earth.  On the contrary, this was the most widely accepted Catholic view for most of our history.
    Accepted by Catholics today or not, it is error to believe in a condemned theory so thoroughly rooted in paganism and promoted so vociferously by occult modern globalists.  Wisdom indwelling would immediately shun such things.  Continuing to defend the science of pagans reveals much about those who do it.  And the above argument remains devoid of Catholic character in light of the many truths Scripture and the saints provide in order to make one's mind right.  The conversation should never have been fighting about the particulars, but true wisdom inquires about what the particulars are before making judgement.  That has not been done here, obviously.  And the loss is yours.   

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: 50 Plus Reasons The Earth Is Not Flat
    « Reply #1269 on: April 14, 2018, 07:18:49 PM »
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  • Accepted by Catholics today or not, it is error to believe in a condemned theory so thoroughly rooted in paganism and promoted so vociferously by occult modern globalists.  Wisdom indwelling would immediately shun such things.  Continuing to defend the science of pagans reveals much about those who do it.  And the above argument remains devoid of Catholic character in light of the many truths Scripture and the saints provide in order to make one's mind right.  The conversation should never have been fighting about the particulars, but true wisdom inquires about what the particulars are before making judgement.  That has not been done here, obviously.  And the loss is yours.  
    Spherical earth is not a "condemned theory".  Some Church Fathers disagreed with it while others agreed.  Nobody with authority to condemn it ever did so.

    Many Catholic Saints (virtually all of the ones who lived after 800) believed in a spherical earth and this was the position encouraged by the Church and taught in Catholic universities for over a thousand years.  This is a Catholic view, never condemned or even discouraged by the Church.  

    You have taken some quotes from the Fathers and your personal interpretation of Scripture to fabricate support for flat earth that never existed historically.  You are in opposition to the actual historical Catholic understanding that the earth is a sphere.  No matter how much you claim this is a pagan belief, it is a longstanding Catholic tradition.  Flat earth, on the other hand, is promoted in modern times by occult pagans like  Eric Dubay. 

    I am not defending "the science of pagans".  I am defending Catholic tradition and historical truth.   You may like to pretend that you are fighting pagans, but you are their ally.  You oppose the usual view of Catholics for most of our history. 

    Offline happenby

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    Re: 50 Plus Reasons The Earth Is Not Flat
    « Reply #1270 on: April 14, 2018, 07:26:07 PM »
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  • Spherical earth is not a "condemned theory".  Some Church Fathers disagreed with it while others agreed.  Nobody with authority to condemn it ever did so.

    Many Catholic Saints (virtually all of the ones who lived after 800) believed in a spherical earth and this was the position encouraged by the Church and taught in Catholic universities for over a thousand years.  This is a Catholic view, never condemned or even discouraged by the Church.  

    You have taken some quotes from the Fathers and your personal interpretation of Scripture to fabricate support for flat earth that never existed historically.  You are in opposition to the actual historical Catholic understanding that the earth is a sphere.  No matter how much you claim this is a pagan belief, it is a longstanding Catholic tradition.  Flat earth, on the other hand, is promoted in modern times by occult pagans like  Eric Dubay.

    I am not defending "the science of pagans".  I am defending Catholic tradition and historical truth.   You may like to pretend that you are fighting pagans, but you are their ally.  You oppose the usual view of Catholics for most of our history.
    Always falling on deaf ears.   The Pythagorean Doctrine, aka Copernicanism is the science of pagans, and it was soundly condemned by the Catholic Church no matter what you pretend not to know.


    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: 50 Plus Reasons The Earth Is Not Flat
    « Reply #1271 on: April 14, 2018, 07:57:54 PM »
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  • Always falling on deaf ears.   The Pythagorean Doctrine, aka Copernicanism is the science of pagans, and it was soundly condemned by the Catholic Church no matter what you pretend not to know.
    Yes, Copernicanism was condemned for being heliocentric.  In its place, the Church promoted the geocentric Ptolemaic model that had long been the dominant belief among Catholics.  But proponents of both models agreed that the earth was a sphere. That was not a point under debate.  The condemnation of Copernicanism is obviously not equivalent to a condemnation of spherical earth.  Spherical earth was an common feature to both models and clearly acceptable to the Church.

    This has been explained to you many times by many people.  Your refusal to accept something that is so clearly true seriously impairs your credibility. 

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: 50 Plus Reasons The Earth Is Not Flat
    « Reply #1272 on: April 14, 2018, 08:15:38 PM »
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  • As you say, the Church (at the very least) leaves open the option of believing the earth is a sphere.  This means that these people who think that Scripture teaches flat earth, in effect, are saying that the Church has been wrong to do this.  If inerrant, God-inspired Scripture truly said that the earth were flat, it would be wrong for the Church to allow other views.  How would it be OK for the Church to say "Go ahead and disagree with Scripture if you want"?

    I think that there are times when the Church doesn't "make up her mind" about an issue or chooses to allow a difference of opinion among Catholics.  Take for example the famous Molinist debate, after which the Church allowed both opinions.

    At one point, the Church declared St. Thomas Aquinas a Doctor of the Church after he objectively denied the Immaculate Conception.  Objectively the Church was wrong or had not made up her mind on the issue.  Same thing could be said here.  One could argue that the Church has not made up her mind without impugning the Church.

    Otherwise, you're sliding dangerously close into that concept of "negative infallibility", where some zealous hold that it's not possible for the Church to fail to condemn any erroneous opinion ... so that all opinions tolerated by the Church must be considered true.

    Offline happenby

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    Re: 50 Plus Reasons The Earth Is Not Flat
    « Reply #1273 on: April 14, 2018, 08:47:43 PM »
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  • Yes, Copernicanism was condemned for being heliocentric.  In its place, the Church promoted the geocentric Ptolemaic model that had long been the dominant belief among Catholics.  But proponents of both models agreed that the earth was a sphere. That was not a point under debate.  The condemnation of Copernicanism is obviously not equivalent to a condemnation of spherical earth.  Spherical earth was an common feature to both models and clearly acceptable to the Church.

    This has been explained to you many times by many people.  Your refusal to accept something that is so clearly true seriously impairs your credibility.
    The Church's words prove the contrary to what you claim: In March 1616 the Church described Copernicanism: the "false Pythagorean doctrine, altogether contrary to the Holy Scripture," and took action against it so it would not "creep any further to the prejudice of Catholic truth."
    Copernicanism/Pythagorean doctrines are condemned as false
    These condemned pagan doctrines are described as ALTOGETHER (this means totally) contrary to Scripture
    These condemned pagan doctrines had been creeping in to the prejudice of Catholic truth (something you are pretending was acceptance)
    The ridiculous assertion that the Church agreed earth was a sphere, is rendered false.  The Church fully condemned these pagan doctrines, called them FALSE and HERETICAL, and very specifically condemned them because they were ALTOGETHER contrary to Scripture.

       
     

    Offline happenby

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    Re: 50 Plus Reasons The Earth Is Not Flat
    « Reply #1274 on: April 14, 2018, 09:01:30 PM »
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  • The Church employed several arguments against Galileo's moving sphere, including the firmament dome that covers earth, with sun and moon inside, among 19 other arguments. There's really no place to hide in hopes of protecting any aspect of spherical moving earth.  While some Catholics will certainly get a pass for not knowing, perhaps not being affected by this globalist agenda against God, the Copernican/Pythagorean doctrines driving modern science of today were long ago condemned because they damage the Faith.