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Author Topic: 50 Plus Reasons The Earth Is Not Flat  (Read 93090 times)

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Offline Jaynek

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Re: 50 Plus Reasons The Earth Is Not Flat
« Reply #1140 on: February 12, 2018, 06:21:14 PM »
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  • What is your understanding of it figuratively?
    I understand it as phenomenological language.  That means it describes the appearance of a thing without meaning that is the reality of it. For example, many people speak of the sun rising, even though they think the earth moves around the sun, because it looks like the sun is moving.

    When Scripture speaks of a firmament it is talking about what the sky looks like rather than its actual nature.


    Offline happenby

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    Re: 50 Plus Reasons The Earth Is Not Flat
    « Reply #1141 on: February 12, 2018, 06:22:57 PM »
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  • I understand it as phenomenological language.  That means it describes the appearance of a thing without meaning that is the reality of it. For example, many people speak of the sun rising, even though they think the earth moves around the sun, because it looks like the sun is moving.

    When Scripture speaks of a firmament it is talking about what the sky looks like rather than its actual nature.
    Too many Catholic scholars and Fathers say otherwise.  But then, you permit yourself the luxury of interpretation of Scripture, but Fathers and the Church not so much.   


    Offline Meg

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    Re: 50 Plus Reasons The Earth Is Not Flat
    « Reply #1142 on: February 12, 2018, 06:25:54 PM »
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  • I understand it as phenomenological language.  That means it describes the appearance of a thing without meaning that is the reality of it. For example, many people speak of the sun rising, even though they think the earth moves around the sun, because it looks like the sun is moving.

    When Scripture speaks of a firmament it is talking about what the sky looks like rather than its actual nature.

    I think I see what you're saying, but if it were only phenomenological, why were details included in scripture, such as the waters being above the firmament? That's not something that we can see with our eyes.
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: 50 Plus Reasons The Earth Is Not Flat
    « Reply #1143 on: February 12, 2018, 06:27:54 PM »
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  • Fathers say otherwise.  Are you interpreting to your own destruction?  Who are you to decide what Scripture says?
    I am someone following Church teaching.  Teaching which says the Fathers are giving their personal fallible opinions.  Teaching which says that this is the way Catholics ought to interpret it.

    I am not deciding what Scripture says. You are the one doing that.  Why can't you understand that it does not matter what some Fathers said?

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: 50 Plus Reasons The Earth Is Not Flat
    « Reply #1144 on: February 12, 2018, 06:29:15 PM »
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  • Too many Catholic scholars and Fathers say otherwise.  But then, you permit yourself the luxury of interpretation of Scripture, but Fathers and the Church not so much.  
    No Catholic scholars after 700 say it.  Not even all the Fathers say it.


    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: 50 Plus Reasons The Earth Is Not Flat
    « Reply #1145 on: February 12, 2018, 06:31:45 PM »
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  • I think I see what you're saying, but if it were only phenomenological, why were details included in scripture, such as the waters being above the firmament? That's not something that we can see with our eyes.
    Water above the firmament refers to clouds.  When it rains it looks like water coming from the sky.

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: 50 Plus Reasons The Earth Is Not Flat
    « Reply #1146 on: February 12, 2018, 06:37:21 PM »
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  • Or, they were right and you are wrong
    It wouldn't just be me who is wrong.  It would be virtually every educated Catholic since St. Bede.  

    You have a handful of Fathers giving their personal, fallible opinions that the earth is flat against 1300 years of Catholics (including Saints and Doctors of the Church) saying it is round.

    Offline Meg

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    Re: 50 Plus Reasons The Earth Is Not Flat
    « Reply #1147 on: February 12, 2018, 06:43:55 PM »
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  • Water above the firmament refers to clouds.  When it rains it looks like water coming from the sky.

    You believe that the clouds are above the stars? I ask this, because Scripture says that God placed the sun and moon and stars in the firmament of heaven, to shine upon the earth. The firmament cannot therefore be clouds. We can easily see that the stars are above the clouds.
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29


    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: 50 Plus Reasons The Earth Is Not Flat
    « Reply #1148 on: February 12, 2018, 07:37:12 PM »
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  • You believe that the clouds are above the stars? I ask this, because Scripture says that God placed the sun and moon and stars in the firmament of heaven, to shine upon the earth. The firmament cannot therefore be clouds. We can easily see that the stars are above the clouds.
    Some scholars who interpret "firmament" as phenomenological language say it refers to mist or clouds.  Another phenomenological interpretation is that the sky is a similar colour to water, so "water above the firmament" refers to the appearance of the sky as blue.

    Offline Smedley Butler

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    Re: 50 Plus Reasons The Earth Is Not Flat
    « Reply #1149 on: February 12, 2018, 07:39:14 PM »
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  • I understand it as phenomenological language.  That means it describes the appearance of a thing without meaning that is the reality of it. For example, many people speak of the sun rising, even though they think the earth moves around the sun, because it looks like the sun is moving.

    When Scripture speaks of a firmament it is talking about what the sky looks like rather than its actual nature.
    Does the sky "look" solid and strong to you?
    If not, then why did He say that it is?
    Do you think He is trying to teach us about something we cannot see?

    Offline Smedley Butler

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    Re: 50 Plus Reasons The Earth Is Not Flat
    « Reply #1150 on: February 12, 2018, 07:46:10 PM »
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  • Some scholars who interpret "firmament" as phenomenological language say it refers to mist or clouds.  Another phenomenological interpretation is that the sky is a similar colour to water, so "water above the firmament" refers to the appearance of the sky as blue.
    Clearly,  you have not read a single book on the Great Flood all of which hold that the gates & windows of the Firmament opened to release the waters above. 


    Offline happenby

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    Re: 50 Plus Reasons The Earth Is Not Flat
    « Reply #1151 on: February 12, 2018, 08:28:04 PM »
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  • It wouldn't just be me who is wrong.  It would be virtually every educated Catholic since St. Bede.  

    You have a handful of Fathers giving their personal, fallible opinions that the earth is flat against 1300 years of Catholics (including Saints and Doctors of the Church) saying it is round.
    Now Jayne, that simply isn't true.  People know when to fall silent, and many did after the violent backlash with which they were met for holding Scriptural literal flat earth.  Flat earthers deal with it daily, so we know how the so-called learned pound us down to make us feel stupid.  So, while you suggest virtually every educated Catholic since St. Bede knew earth was a globe, you're failing to include the few who didn't fall for the spin, but also, the multitude of ignorant joes who knew that the stuffed shirts of academia were patting each other's backs for nothing. 

    Offline happenby

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    Re: 50 Plus Reasons The Earth Is Not Flat
    « Reply #1152 on: February 12, 2018, 08:31:12 PM »
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  • I am someone following Church teaching.  Teaching which says the Fathers are giving their personal fallible opinions.  Teaching which says that this is the way Catholics ought to interpret it.

    I am not deciding what Scripture says. You are the one doing that.  Why can't you understand that it does not matter what some Fathers said?
    You do decide that when you say it shouldn't be interpreted literally. 

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: 50 Plus Reasons The Earth Is Not Flat
    « Reply #1153 on: February 12, 2018, 08:39:33 PM »
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  • You do decide that when you say it shouldn't be interpreted literally.
    I am saying it because the Church has encouraged me to say it. I did not come up with this on my own.

    Offline happenby

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    Re: 50 Plus Reasons The Earth Is Not Flat
    « Reply #1154 on: February 12, 2018, 08:45:15 PM »
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  • I am saying it because the Church has encouraged me to say it. I did not come up with this on my own.
    You know better by now, but have made your choice, such as it is.