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Author Topic: 50 Plus Reasons The Earth Is Not Flat  (Read 232912 times)

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Offline happenby

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Re: 50 Plus Reasons The Earth Is Not Flat
« Reply #645 on: May 15, 2017, 01:19:52 AM »
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  • "Uh, wrong?" I was quoting you.
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    You are not the messenger of the Church.
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    The Church has not spoken on the subject of "flat earth." You just don't comprehend what you're reading. The shape of the world is not a matter for religious faith, just as it's not a spiritual matter to describe the electrical charge of an atom or Ohm's Law. So they're not in the Bible. The Church has not proclaimed any ruling on the shape of chromosomes, either.  Even though Our Lord began life in the womb of the Blessed Virgin Mary with the same shape of chromosomes that we have today, it is not a matter of faith for us to believe that the shape of chromosomes is one thing or another. It is a matter of scientific investigation. So too, the shape of the earth is a matter of scientific investigation. You can know the truth if you investigate scientifically, by taking the measurement.
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    If you are looking for the truth, take the measurement.
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    But you are not looking for truth, are you. Because you refuse to do the experiment. Your actions speak for themselves.
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    The Church has condemned heliocentrism.  Scripture describes a flat earth CONSITENTLY.  The saints proclaim a flat earth. Science supports a flat earth.  Reason and experience prove a flat earth.  There is nothing that even begins to demonstrate a ball earth.  Earth is flat.  

    Offline happenby

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    Re: 50 Plus Reasons The Earth Is Not Flat
    « Reply #646 on: May 15, 2017, 01:35:19 AM »
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  • "Uh, wrong?" I was quoting you.
    .
    You are not the messenger of the Church.
    .
    The Church has not spoken on the subject of "flat earth." You just don't comprehend what you're reading. The shape of the world is not a matter for religious faith, just as it's not a spiritual matter to describe the electrical charge of an atom or Ohm's Law. So they're not in the Bible. The Church has not proclaimed any ruling on the shape of chromosomes, either.  Even though Our Lord began life in the womb of the Blessed Virgin Mary with the same shape of chromosomes that we have today, it is not a matter of faith for us to believe that the shape of chromosomes is one thing or another. It is a matter of scientific investigation. So too, the shape of the earth is a matter of scientific investigation. You can know the truth if you investigate scientifically, by taking the measurement.
    .
    If you are looking for the truth, take the measurement.
    .
    But you are not looking for truth, are you. Because you refuse to do the experiment. Your actions speak for themselves.
    .
    Saint quotes, scripture quotes, science, and reason have been provided and remain without any serious contest.  You have provided nothing Catholic, nothing scriptural, nothing from the saints, nothing from the Church, nothing reasonable. The science so-called you proclaim has been refuted.  Your entire argument is based on heliocentric model sophistries at odds with reality all couched in high sounding, long winded mumbo jumbo written by pagans poised against the Church who are utterly "global". Nothing even remotely Catholic comes from you. Since against the truth there is no argument, all creation speaks clearly, earth is not a globe.  We can continue this for the benefit of readers, but really, you lost this argument the minute you decided to take it personal, swatting about with unrelated nonsense that adds up to negative black holes of conjecture in contention with truth. 


    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: 50 Plus Reasons The Earth Is Not Flat
    « Reply #647 on: May 16, 2017, 06:18:19 PM »
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  • Saint quotes, scripture quotes, science, and reason have been provided and remain without any serious contest.  You have provided nothing Catholic, nothing scriptural, nothing from the saints, nothing from the Church, nothing reasonable. The science so-called you proclaim has been refuted.  Your entire argument is based on heliocentric model sophistries at odds with reality all couched in high sounding, long winded mumbo jumbo written by pagans poised against the Church who are utterly "global". Nothing even remotely Catholic comes from you. Since against the truth there is no argument, all creation speaks clearly, earth is not a globe.  We can continue this for the benefit of readers, but really, you lost this argument the minute you decided to take it personal, swatting about with unrelated nonsense that adds up to negative black holes of conjecture in contention with truth.
    .
    Are you having a mental breakdown or what?
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    Your post above is a string of falsehoods.
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    The Church nor the saints have had anything authoritative to say about the shape of the earth because that is not their area of authority. The Church and the saints have reliable things to say in regards to spiritual matters, but the shape of the earth is not a spiritual matter.  
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    God has revealed that He will remake the earth -- there will be a new earth and the sea will be no more.  We have no idea what that will be like and frankly, it's none of our business. It is our place to have faith, and to believe that God's revelation is true. But God has not revealed the shape of the earth in words -- what He has done is given us the earth and a pair of eyes and a reasoning mind so we can figure it out by observation.
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    That is precisely what I am proposing here by inviting everyone to measure the angle between the sun and the moon as the moon reaches its first and last quarter.
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    You are accusing me of using a heliocentric model, which only goes to prove you don't understand what that is. I have never claimed to support heliocentrism on this forum. 
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    You're hurling the ad hominem of "mumbo jumbo" at me while your whole post which see, is just that, mumbo jumbo.  
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    If you're so miserable reading what I post, then why do you torture yourself?
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    You and everyone else are cordially invited to measure the angle between the sun and the moon on the upcoming last quarter moon.
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    Show that you are willing to observe the reality that God has given us by taking the measurement.
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    Twice each month we are given God's testimony in this way, but it is up to us to look at what He has given us. You have to ask yourself if you are willing to look, or if instead you will insist on not looking at what God has given us to know.
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    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: 50 Plus Reasons The Earth Is Not Flat
    « Reply #648 on: May 16, 2017, 06:32:54 PM »
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  • .
    Measure the angle between the sun and the moon during the last quarter moon, which is coming up this coming Thursday, May 18th, at 5:35 pm in the west coast USA.
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    There should be three measurements, one at around 11 am on Wednesday (because the moon sets at 11:26 am in the west), and a second one around 12 pm on Thursday (moon sets at 12:22 pm), and a third one around 1:00 pm on Friday (moon sets at 1:21 pm).
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    If you can only do one in the morning then that's better than nothing. Thursday morning and/or Friday morning would be great. The moon will be high in the sky when the sun rises, so measure the angle between the two, and post it here.
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    By measuring the angle between the sun and the moon at the quarter moon, you can observe the reality that moon phases provide for us to know.  Of course, flat-earthers don't want to know the truth, so they won't take the measurement.
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    You can prove me wrong by taking the measurement.
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    The day after tomorrow, the best place to view the angle between the sun and moon will be Hawaii, New Zealand or anywhere else in the Pacific Ocean. The moon will set in the west later there, and so it will still be visible in the sky when it's 5:35 pm here in California, the time of the quarter moon.
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    By the way, you'll have a very hard time finding any source founded on flat-earthism that can list the times of the phases of the moon, or times of sunrise and sunset, all according to time zones. That's because there is no way to calculate the time the sun or moon rises or sets when they are presumed to whirl around above a "flat" earth.
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    Offline happenby

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    Re: 50 Plus Reasons The Earth Is Not Flat
    « Reply #649 on: May 17, 2017, 04:17:49 PM »
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  • .
    Are you having a mental breakdown or what?
    .
    Your post above is a string of falsehoods.
    .
    The Church nor the saints have had anything authoritative to say about the shape of the earth because that is not their area of authority. The Church and the saints have reliable things to say in regards to spiritual matters, but the shape of the earth is not a spiritual matter.  
    .
    God has revealed that He will remake the earth -- there will be a new earth and the sea will be no more.  We have no idea what that will be like and frankly, it's none of our business. It is our place to have faith, and to believe that God's revelation is true. But God has not revealed the shape of the earth in words -- what He has done is given us the earth and a pair of eyes and a reasoning mind so we can figure it out by observation.
    .
    That is precisely what I am proposing here by inviting everyone to measure the angle between the sun and the moon as the moon reaches its first and last quarter.
    .
    You are accusing me of using a heliocentric model, which only goes to prove you don't understand what that is. I have never claimed to support heliocentrism on this forum.
    .
    You're hurling the ad hominem of "mumbo jumbo" at me while your whole post which see, is just that, mumbo jumbo.  
    .
    If you're so miserable reading what I post, then why do you torture yourself?
    .
    You and everyone else are cordially invited to measure the angle between the sun and the moon on the upcoming last quarter moon.
    .
    Show that you are willing to observe the reality that God has given us by taking the measurement.
    .
    Twice each month we are given God's testimony in this way, but it is up to us to look at what He has given us. You have to ask yourself if you are willing to look, or if instead you will insist on not looking at what God has given us to know.
    .
    The shape of the earth is a spiritual matter because it was revealed to us in scripture.  And yes, the saints have spoken, on antipodes, Jerusalem in the middle of the earth, the tabernacle (which is designed from the shape of the earth) and against heliocentrism, the modern NASA lie that embodies a moving globe.  When you come up to speed on Church teaching on the matter, all will be light for you.


    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: 50 Plus Reasons The Earth Is Not Flat
    « Reply #650 on: May 17, 2017, 11:44:06 PM »
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  • The shape of the earth is a spiritual matter because it was revealed to us in scripture.  And yes, the saints have spoken, on antipodes, Jerusalem in the middle of the earth, the tabernacle (which is designed from the shape of the earth) and against heliocentrism, the modern NASA lie that embodies a moving globe.  When you come up to speed on Church teaching on the matter, all will be light for you.
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    No, the shape of the earth is not a spiritual matter. You are wrong.
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    There has never been a pope who has decreed the earth is flat. The popes since the middle ages have specifically avoided the topic because they don't want mud on their faces, and they know better, unlike you.
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    The popes have been careful to stick to spiritual matters, that is, up to Vatican II. And since then they haven't pronounced authoritatively about anything at all. That's another story.
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    The condemnation of Galileo is a case in point. It has nothing to do with the shape of the earth, only the question of whether the earth moves. They said it does not move. That doesn't mean it's "flat."
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    All of our observations of the heavens tell us the earth is a globe, just like all the other large heavenly bodies.
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    And all of our observations of the universe tell us that we are unable to determine whether the earth moves or not, but since the Church has said it does not move, it helps us to see that those who claim that it does move are pridefully mocking the Church, like Galileo dared to do. Notice he was not handed over to the secular authority for capital punishment, but was subjected to years of house arrest - free room and board, basically.
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    Our discussion is regarding the physical dimensions and observable parameters of the earth, not whether it moves or not.
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    This discussion has absolutely nothing to do with heliocentrism. Your confusion on this point is redundant and tiresome.
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    Back to the matter at hand....
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    Today the moon has been approaching its last quarter, and the angle between the moon and the sun is decreasing. Do you know what it is today? No, you do not, nor do you want to know because you are not interested in the truth.
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    You and other flat-earthers like you are dug in to your erroneous thinking, your sacred cow false god of flat-earthism. When you realize your error it will be a light to you.
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    It's a sad case when people get confused between the material and the spiritual. This has been the case in other areas too, and it does nothing for your faith.
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    I can't blame you guys for being disillusioned with all the lies in the media and all the deceptions in world events, politics and popular culture. The French Revolution is still believed by atheists to have been a wonderful thing. Not a few of these have fallen into devil worship as a consequence of their error, which is a fulfillment of prophesy, by the way, see Romans chapter one. Animals and "creeping things" have become their replacement for God. I heard a woman preaching on the radio the other day saying that the Virgin Mary (in regards to the Fatima apparitions) is one and the same as Gaia (Greek Gaea, goddess or personification of earth), or "Mother Earth." She said that "She has revealed herself in many forms through the ages" and Our Lady of Fatima is just another one of those ways. Sad.
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    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: 50 Plus Reasons The Earth Is Not Flat
    « Reply #651 on: May 17, 2017, 11:58:03 PM »
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  • .
    When it is a NEW moon, the angle between the earth and sun is ZERO.
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    When the moon's phase is a FULL moon, the angle between the sun and earth is 180 degrees (360 degrees being a full circle).
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    These angles can be observed at the SAME TIME in any place on planet earth, north hemisphere as well as south.
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    Wherever you are on earth, you can see these angles are the same at any given time.
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    Now, if the earth were flat, the moon would be appear FULL in one place on earth while it appears as some other phase from another place on earth. That never happens in reality.
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    When the moon reaches its quarter phase as observed from America, if the earth were flat, the moon would appear as a crescent or gibbous from Europe or Asia. It does not. Therefore the earth is not flat.
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    But there are many more specific observations to make, which we can talk about later.
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    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: 50 Plus Reasons The Earth Is Not Flat
    « Reply #652 on: May 18, 2017, 12:07:06 AM »
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  • .
    So you want Scripture: How about Isaias xl?
    .
    [21] Do you not know? hath it not been heard? hath it not been told you from the beginning? have you not understood the foundations of the earth? [22] It is he that sitteth upon the globe of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as locusts: he that stretcheth out the heavens as nothing, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in. [23] He that bringeth the searchers of secrets to nothing, that hath made the judges of the earth as vanity. [24] And surely their stock was neither planted, nor sown, nor rooted in the earth: suddenly he hath blown upon them, and they are withered, and a whirlwind shall take them away as stubble. [25] And to whom have ye likened me, or made me equal, saith the Holy One?
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    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: 50 Plus Reasons The Earth Is Not Flat
    « Reply #653 on: May 18, 2017, 01:24:54 AM »
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  • You want Scripture: How about Wisdom xi?

    [23] For the whole world before thee is as the least grain of the balance, and as a drop of the morning dew, that falleth down upon the earth:

    Drops of dew are spherical. Grains of the balance are globular, not flat.

    How about I Kings ii?

    [8] He raiseth up the needy from the dust, and lifteth up the poor from the dunghill: that he may sit with princes, and hold the throne of glory. For the poles of the earth are the Lord's, and upon them he hath set the world.

    Note, poles of the earth, e.g., north and south poles. A flat earth can't have two poles - it doesn't even have one, actually.

    I Paralipamemon xvi - this is where the immovable earth comes from (Galileo's problem topic):

    [30] Let all the earth be moved at his presence: for he hath founded the world immovable.

    And Psalms xcii and xcv:

    [1] The Lord hath reigned, he is clothed with beauty: the Lord is clothed with strength, and hath girded himself. For he hath established the world which shall not be moved.

    [10] Say ye among the Gentiles, the Lord hath reigned. For he hath corrected the world, which shall not be moved: he will judge the people with justice.

    Here's a good one, matter without form, Wisdom xi:

     [18] For thy almighty hand, which made the world of matter without form, was not unable to send upon them a multitude of bears, or fierce lions,

    Any blob of matter without form left to its own equilibrium settles into a sphere, not a pancake. Examples: drops of dew, inflated balloons, liquid projectiles from a volcano, a blob of water drifting in a vacuum (before it boils away that is). The reason is that adhesion of matter makes it collect into the shape with the greatest stability and the least amount of surface tension, which is a sphere, not a flying carpet.
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    Offline Truth is Eternal

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    Re: 50 Plus Reasons The Earth Is Not Flat
    « Reply #654 on: May 18, 2017, 10:54:10 AM »
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  • .
    So you want Scripture: How about Isaias xl?
    .
    [21] Do you not know? hath it not been heard? hath it not been told you from the beginning? have you not understood the foundations of the earth? [22] It is he that sitteth upon the globe of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as locusts: he that stretcheth out the heavens as nothing, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in. [23] He that bringeth the searchers of secrets to nothing, that hath made the judges of the earth as vanity. [24] And surely their stock was neither planted, nor sown, nor rooted in the earth: suddenly he hath blown upon them, and they are withered, and a whirlwind shall take them away as stubble. [25] And to whom have ye likened me, or made me equal, saith the Holy One?
    Here is a picture that represents the globe of the earth.


    Offline Meg

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    Re: 50 Plus Reasons The Earth Is Not Flat
    « Reply #655 on: May 18, 2017, 11:17:43 AM »
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  • Here is a picture that represents the globe of the earth.



    Thank you for posting the above illustration.

    It shows the ancient Hebrew conception of the universe; based mainly on Scripture. It does show a globe perspective when including the earth and that which surrounds the earth, such as the sky, firmament, and gate of Heaven, as well as sheol and the Great Deep.



    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29


    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: 50 Plus Reasons The Earth Is Not Flat
    « Reply #656 on: May 18, 2017, 05:50:47 PM »
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  • .
    So now you resort to your silly cartoons again?
    .
    How about Mickey Mouse or Elmer Fudd or Felix the Cat? Why are they missing?
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    I've presented objective observation, and flat-earthers accuse me of being non-scientific, then you come up with half-baked fantasy to do what, show what science is all about?
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    Or are you competing with your own version of being non-scientific?
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    Your attempt to make the Catholic faith look laughable fails because it's just you that's laughable.
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    Are you going to look at the moon and draw corny lumps under it too?
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    How about the sun? Where are the goofy dome and silly dribbles on the sun?
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    Aren't you forgetting something?
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    Like reality?
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    You see, there is a problem with the Great Deep of your fantasy world. Unlike the days when dreamers let their imagination run wild without any evidence to support it, we are now able to send robots to the bottom of the great deep and have found the ocean floor down there, just like we do at the beach and sea shore. 
    .
    So, you're wrong again. Rack 'em up.
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    Offline Meg

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    Re: 50 Plus Reasons The Earth Is Not Flat
    « Reply #657 on: May 18, 2017, 06:18:06 PM »
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  • .
    So now you resort to your silly cartoons again?
    .
    How about Mickey Mouse or Elmer Fudd or Felix the Cat? Why are they missing?
    .
    I've presented objective observation, and flat-earthers accuse me of being non-scientific, then you come up with half-baked fantasy to do what, show what science is all about?
    .
    Or are you competing with your own version of being non-scientific?
    .
    Your attempt to make the Catholic faith look laughable fails because it's just you that's laughable.
    .
    Are you going to look at the moon and draw corny lumps under it too?
    .
    How about the sun? Where are the goofy dome and silly dribbles on the sun?
    .
    Aren't you forgetting something?
    .
    Like reality?
    .
    You see, there is a problem with the Great Deep of your fantasy world. Unlike the days when dreamers let their imagination run wild without any evidence to support it, we are now able to send robots to the bottom of the great deep and have found the ocean floor down there, just like we do at the beach and sea shore.
    .
    So, you're wrong again. Rack 'em up.
    .
    Very strange response. No use even trying to reply to something like what you've written above.
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Binechi

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    Re: 50 Plus Reasons The Earth Is Not Flat
    « Reply #658 on: May 18, 2017, 06:53:02 PM »
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  • Flat Earth under the "   dome"

    "Water Always seek s its own level   " No getting around it "

    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: 50 Plus Reasons The Earth Is Not Flat
    « Reply #659 on: May 18, 2017, 07:02:58 PM »
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  • .
    The moon is presently approaching its last quarter, but from my place in the western USA, the moon has been below the horizon for a few hours already so I can't see it. My last observation was earlier in the day when the moon was visible in the sky, and so was the sun. I checked the angle between the sun and moon just after sunrise, later in the morning, and then just before noon as the moon was getting close to the western horizon.
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    What I found really noteworthy was the angle of repose of the moon throughout this series of observations, and the same thing can be seen tomorrow early in the day anywhere on earth there is a clear sky.
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    You see, what God has to show us when we look into the sky isn't the musings of dreamers who make their wandering imaginations the authors of pure fantasy (like your ancient Hebrew gibberish, above). When man thinks he knows something and proceeds to draw conclusions based on incomprehension of God's revelation, you see how wrong he can be by looking at those silly cartoons.
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    When we look into the sky today, we can see a sun and a moon that tell us a lot about the real world if we are willing to actually notice what there is to see before our eyes.
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    With the sun rising in the east this morning, the moon's angle of repose was rotated clockwise about 10 degrees from the vertical.  Another way of saying that is that the moon's bright side facing the sun was tilted upward, toward a place high in the eastern sky that appeared to be much higher than where the sun is found. .
    If the moon were very close to the earth, as the flat-earthers claim, the angle of repose of the moon would have been exactly vertical, that is, with the straight part of the quarter moon going up and down, vertically, since the sun would be also close to the earth but even closer to the moon, since our line of sight from earth to sun is the hypotenuse of the triangle and that's the longest side, consequently the greatest distance.
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    There are (at least) two big problems with that proposed set of locations for the sun and moon. One is, the angle of repose was not straight up and down with the moon's light side facing a nearby sun. The bright side of the moon was angled upward toward a sun that is just as high in the sky from the moon's point of view as it is from our point of view on the earth. In other words, the astronomical direction we look toward the sun from earth is the very same astronomical direction we would look toward the sun if we were on the moon. That means the sun is SO FAR AWAY from us that it makes no difference whether our point of view is anywhere on the earth or on the moon, the sun is still found in the very same place in the distant sky in either case, our direction of observation having the same astronomical direction from either position.
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    Or so it would seem at first glance.
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    The other big problem with proposing the sun and moon are nearby the earth (set off by a few thousand miles) is that regardless of where we are on the earth, we see the same phases of the moon at any moment of time. In California the moon reaches its last quarter at 5:35 pm this afternoon (even though the moon is not visible in California at that time), and the same quarter moon event is occurring everywhere else on earth at the same minute, 5:35 pm our time (12:35 am UTC).  Someone in Australia could look up in the sky in the next hour and observe the moon reaching its last quarter, live, real time, as it happens. For them, the last quarter occurs at 10:35 am, while the moon is still visible in the sky.
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    If the earth were "flat," the measured angle between the sun and moon if both were only a few thousand miles away and as the moon approaches its quarter phase would be something like 30 or maybe 40 degrees, and depending on where one is located on earth, the angle would be different. But as a matter of fact, when we observe what God has given us to see in the sky, we find the angle between the sun and moon to be greater than 90 degrees as the moon approaches its last quarter, and it is the SAME angle regardless of where we are standing on the earth when we take the measurement.
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    When I first checked this morning, I found the angle to be 94 degrees. Later it gradually become 93 degrees, and that was just before the moon set in the western sky at 11:44 am. I had a range of mountains in the way so I had to check by 11:00 if I wanted to still see the moon before it went behind the mountains. But I could have gone to the top of the mountains just to see the moon for another 44 minutes. I've done that in the past.
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    So over the course of several hours, the angle between the sun and moon reduced at least one degree, and probably more like two degrees. The sun moves across the sky faster than the moon, although their precise angular speed varies from month to month since their orbits are not circular but somewhat elliptical.  If the sun happens to be moving faster one day and the moon slower, the change of angle between the sun and moon as observed from earth will be more rapid on that day compared to another day when the moon is moving faster and the sun is moving slower, relatively speaking. But the range of difference is pretty small and we can give an approximate speed that will apply to any day, year after year.
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    Tomorrow morning I might be able to check this angle again, between the sun and moon. By checking how many hours have elapsed after 5:35 pm today, I will be able to estimate what the angle between the sun and moon was when the moon reached its last quarter.
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