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Author Topic: 50 Plus Reasons The Earth Is Not Flat  (Read 340467 times)

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Re: 50 Plus Reasons The Earth Is Not Flat
« Reply #530 on: April 07, 2017, 06:07:48 PM »
Meteorology has a number of things (nouns) that are not material in substance. 

  • mean sea level
  • equatorial bulge
  • atmospheric pressure
  • summer solstice
  • cold front
  • high pressure zone
  • snowpack
  • cirrus cloud formation
  • time zone
  • Daylight Savings Time
  • air density
  • overcast skies
  • twilight
  • new moon
  • sunset
  • moonrise
  • average rainfall 
  • tornado warning
  • moment magnitude of earthquake

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Of each of these kinds of things, you can ask, "How much does it weigh?" or "What is its Rockwell hardness number?" or "How many of them can you fit in one hectare?" but you won't get any answer that makes sense, because those are material criteria and these are non-materially substantive things. 



Re: 50 Plus Reasons The Earth Is Not Flat
« Reply #531 on: April 07, 2017, 09:27:19 PM »
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We can be pretty sure you're not going to hear +W pronouncing emphatically about anything in science or geodetic surveying. That's not his area of concern. He might say heaven is above and hell is below us but the rest will be poetry.
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As for the Bible's description of the firmament, there is nothing in Scripture that describes the physical substance of the firmament, or if it HAS any physical properties.
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Where it is and what it does and how it affects man is mentioned but not what it IS.
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Therefore, we could easily take that to mean that it is being mentioned for the purpose of giving mankind a way of thinking about God's creation, and helping us put our minds into a topic that is far beyond our reach, in other words, how to think about spiritual things. The function of this "firmament" topic in scripture might be entirely to help mankind drag his mind out of materialism and into a higher level of thinking, such as the queen of the sciences, philosophy.
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Modern man is prone to sneer at philosophy and deride the very thing that could be of great help to him in raising his consciousness to a higher level of awareness and appreciation of God's creation, that is, it could help him make of his soul a better, more virtuous being, which could endure all eternity. Alternatively, he could ignore all that and just be stuck in a material rut of ignorance, as if a brute animal. It has been said that the great project of the Old Testament was preparing ancient man for the arrival of Our Lord, and the contemplation of theology, but far too many people in those days strove to keep their minds on mundane things, and to a large degree, not much has changed in that regard for many alive today.
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85% of Jews are atheists.
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In ancient times the upper atmosphere was not something that could be experienced first hand. The X-15 was a later development.
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What does Scripture say about the firmament?

Genesis 1:6
 And God said: Let there be a
firmament made amidst the waters: and let it divide the waters from the waters.
Genesis 1:7
 And God made a
firmament, and divided the waters that were under the firmament, from those that were above the firmament, and it was so.
Genesis 1:8
 And God called the
firmament, Heaven; and the evening and morning were the second day.
Genesis 1:14
 And God said: Let there be lights made in the
firmament of heaven, to divide the day and the night, and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days and years:
Genesis 1:15
 To shine in the
firmament of heaven, and to give light upon the earth. And it was so done.
Genesis 1:17
 And he set them in the
firmament of heaven to shine upon the earth.
Genesis 1:20
 God also said: Let the waters bring forth the creeping creature having life, and the fowl that may fly over the earth under the
firmament of heaven.
3 Kings (1 Kings) 8:43
 Then hear thou in heaven, in the
firmament of thy dwelling place, and do all those things, for which that stranger shall call upon thee: that all the people of the earth may learn to fear thy name, as do thy people Israel, and may prove that thy name is called upon on this house, which I have built.
3 Kings (1 Kings) 8:49
 Then hear thou in heaven, in the
firmament of thy throne, their prayers, and their supplications, and do judgment for them:
Psalms 17:3
 The Lord is my
firmament, my refuge, and my deliverer. My God is my helper, and in him will I put my trust. My protector and the horn of my salvation, and my support.
Psalms 18:2
 The heavens shew forth the glory of God, and the
firmament declareth the work of his hands.
Psalms 24:14
 The Lord is a
firmament to them that fear him: and his covenant shall be made manifest to them.
Psalms 70:3
 Be thou unto me a God, a protector, and a place of strength: that thou mayst make me safe. For thou art my
firmament and my refuge.
Psalms 71:16
 And there shall be a
firmament on the earth on the tops of mountains, above Libanus shall the fruit thereof be exalted: and they of the city shall flourish like the grass of the earth.
Psalms 150:1
 Praise ye the Lord in his holy places: praise ye him in the
firmament of his power.
Ecclesiasticus 43:1
 The
firmament on high is his beauty, the beauty of heaven with its glorious shew.
Ezechiel (Ezeckiel) 1:22
 And over the heads of the living creatures was the likeness of the
firmament, as the appearance of crystal terrible to behold, and stretched out over their heads above.
Ezechiel (Ezeckiel) 1:23
 And under the
firmament were their wings straight, the one toward the other, every one with two wings covered his body, and the other was covered in like manner.
Ezechiel (Ezeckiel) 1:25
 For when a voice came from above the
firmament, that was over their heads, they stood, and let down their wings.
Ezechiel (Ezeckiel) 1:26
 And above the
firmament that was over their heads, was the likeness of a throne, as the appearance of the sapphire stone, and upon the likeness of the throne, was a likeness as of the appearance of a man above upon it.

 01
21
23 verses found.

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We should be able to agree that heaven is an example of a non-material reality. Therefore, the "firmament of heaven," being not entirely unlike some aspect or property "of heaven," as Scripture literally says, is not necessarily a physically material reality.
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For example, the north pole, the equator, the Prime Meridian and Mean Sea Level are examples of immaterial realities. Likewise, elevation above MSL, the spring equinox, and the first quarter phase of the moon are immaterial realities. These are examples of things that have no weight, no chemical composition, no alkalinity, no hardness, no transparency, no temperature and no inertia, which are immaterial properties. These are things not found in Scripture, but they are things that cannot be picked up and carried across the room. And they are not made of glass or some other hard material.
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How many of these quotes refer to a "firmament" that is not necessarily of MATERIAL composition?

  • And God said: Let there be a firmament made amidst the waters: and let it divide the waters from the waters.
  • And God made a firmament, and divided the waters that were under the firmament, from those that were above the firmament, and it was so.
  • And God called the firmament, Heaven; and the evening and morning were the second day.
  • And God said: Let there be lights made in the firmament of heaven, to divide the day and the night, and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days and years:
  • To shine in the firmament of heaven, and to give light upon the earth. And it was so done.
  • And he set them in the firmament of heaven to shine upon the earth.
  • God also said: Let the waters bring forth the creeping creature having life, and the fowl that may fly over the earth under the firmament of heaven.
  • Then hear thou in heaven, in the firmament of thy dwelling place, and do all those things, for which that stranger shall call upon thee: that all the people of the earth may learn to fear thy name, as do thy people Israel, and may prove that thy name is called upon on this house, which I have built.
  • Then hear thou in heaven, in the firmament of thy throne, their prayers, and their supplications, and do judgment for them:
  • The Lord is my firmament, my refuge, and my deliverer. My God is my helper, and in him will I put my trust. My protector and the horn of my salvation, and my support.
  • The heavens shew forth the glory of God, and the firmament declareth the work of his hands.
  • The Lord is a firmament to them that fear him: and his covenant shall be made manifest to them.
  • Be thou unto me a God, a protector, and a place of strength: that thou mayst make me safe. For thou art my firmament and my refuge.
  • And there shall be a firmament on the earth on the tops of mountains, above Libanus shall the fruit thereof be exalted: and they of the city shall flourish like the grass of the earth.
  • Praise ye the Lord in his holy places: praise ye him in the firmament of his power.
  • The firmament on high is his beauty, the beauty of heaven with its glorious shew.
  • And over the heads of the living creatures was the likeness of the firmament, as the appearance of crystal terrible to behold, and stretched out over their heads above.
  • And under the firmament were their wings straight, the one toward the other, every one with two wings covered his body, and the other was covered in like manner.
  • For when a voice came from above the firmament, that was over their heads, they stood, and let down their wings.
  • And above the firmament that was over their heads, was the likeness of a throne, as the appearance of the sapphire stone, and upon the likeness of the throne, was a likeness as of the appearance of a man above upon it.



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How many of these quotes refer to a "firmament" that is perhaps of IMMATERIAL composition?
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(Answer: ALL of them.)
You got nothing.  There is so much supposition in this rant, I can't even take the time to bother.  Catholic perspective of flat earth from the ancients has been shared here and scientific proofs prove flat earth. Just picked up another traditional priest a couple days ago. FE is gaining ground in many traditional Catholic circles. Its only a matter of time... 


Re: 50 Plus Reasons The Earth Is Not Flat
« Reply #532 on: April 07, 2017, 11:54:43 PM »

As for the Bible's description of the firmament, there is nothing in Scripture that describes the physical substance of the firmament, or if it HAS any physical properties.
The Bible most certainly describes the Firmament as physical. It is called firmamentum, in the Vulgate, which means "strong."
It is described in the Hebrew word as "pounded brass."
Neil, even the modern-day, heliocentric atheist scientists acknowledge that the Firmament is MATERIAL.
They call it DARK MATTER. It holds the galaxies together, has mass, and it interacts with light, but you can't SEE it.
Listen to it explained here in this short video:
http://www.bbc.com/earth/story/20170315-why-almost-all-of-the-universe-is-utterly-invisible

Re: 50 Plus Reasons The Earth Is Not Flat
« Reply #533 on: April 08, 2017, 12:26:01 AM »
You got nothing.  There is so much supposition in this rant, I can't even take the time to bother.  Catholic perspective of flat earth from the ancients has been shared here and scientific proofs prove flat earth. Just picked up another traditional priest a couple days ago. FE is gaining ground in many traditional Catholic circles. Its only a matter of time...
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So if you can't take time to bother, why are you posting?
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There are no scientific proofs of "flat" earth, as you say, so you're wrong.
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Re: 50 Plus Reasons The Earth Is Not Flat
« Reply #534 on: April 08, 2017, 01:09:28 AM »
The Bible most certainly describes the Firmament as physical. It is called firmamentum, in the Vulgate, which means "strong."
It is described in the Hebrew word as "pounded brass."
Neil, even the modern-day, heliocentric atheist scientists acknowledge that the Firmament is MATERIAL.
They call it DARK MATTER. It holds the galaxies together, has mass, and it interacts with light, but you can't SEE it.
Listen to it explained here in this short video:
http://www.bbc.com/earth/story/20170315-why-almost-all-of-the-universe-is-utterly-invisible
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No, the Bible does not definitively describe the firmament as physical.
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There are two different traditional contexts of the firmament, one is "stretched out" but what exactly is it that is stretched out is not specified. It refers to a vast overhead expanse, not necessarily a MATERIAL entity. The other is a material entity, but what that material must be, if any, has never been specified, and therefore, a material firmament is not a scientific entity or principle.
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From the Bible Dictionary:

Quote
Firmament from the Vulgate firmamentum, which is used as the translation of the Hebrew raki'a . This word means simply "expansion." It denotes the space or expanse like an arch appearing immediately above us.

The language of Scripture is not scientific but popular, and hence we read of the sun rising and setting, and also here the use of this particular word. It is plain that it was used to denote solidity as well as expansion. It formed a division between the waters above and the waters below ( Genesis 1:7 ). The raki'a supported the upper reservoir ( Psalms 148:4 ). It was the support also of the heavenly bodies ( Genesis 1:14 ), and is spoken of as having "windows" and "doors" ( Genesis 7:11 ; Isaiah 24:18 ; Malachi 3:10 ) through which the rain and snow might descend.
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The Bible author was not planning on making a 20th century material specification. The whole point of the term firmament is to denote SOMETHING that held the waters back from becoming rain, snow, freezing rain, sleet or hail upon the earth. Notice that the only terms among those in Scripture are rain, hail and snow. Why doesn't Scripture mention freezing rain or sleet? The first mention of hail was in the plagues of Egypt, Exodus 9 f.
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From Catholic Encyclopedia -- I've included the referenced passages too:
Quote
Other passages e.g. Isaiah 42:5, emphasize rather the idea of something extended: "Thus saith the Lord God that created the heavens and stretched them out" (Cf. Isaiah 44:24, and 40:22).

Is. 44: 24 Thus says the Lord, thy ransomer, he who fashioned thee in the womb: I am the Lord, the author of all things; alone I spread out heaven’s canopy, looked for no help when I laid the floor of the earth.

Is. 40: 22 There is One sits so high above its orb, those who live on it seem tiny as locusts; One who has spread out the heavens like gossamer, as he were pitching a tent to dwell in.
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You always have to be careful reading Scripture and immediately leaping to conclusions..........
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2 Examples

1.  Which kinds of living creatures were killed in the flood, and were there any species of animals or plants outside the Ark that survived the Flood?

2.  How many of each kind or sort of animals, male and female, was Noe commanded to bring onto the Ark?

From Genesis 6:

Quote
[17] Behold I will bring the waters of a great flood upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, under heaven. All things that are in the earth shall be consumed. [18] And I will establish my covenant with thee, and thou shalt enter into the ark, thou and thy sons, and thy wife, and the wives of thy sons with thee. [19] And of every living creature of all flesh, thou shalt bring two of a sort into the ark, that they may live with thee: of the male sex, and the female. [20] Of fowls according to their kind, and of beasts in their kind, and of every thing that creepeth on the earth according to its kind; two of every sort shall go in with thee, that they may live.
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I have two questions for you:

How old were Noe's three sons, Sem, Cham and Japheth when the Arc cast off and the flood covered the earth?

And how old was Noe?