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Author Topic: 50 Plus Reasons The Earth Is Not Flat  (Read 93091 times)

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Offline TomGubbinsKimmage

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Re: 50 Plus Reasons The Earth Is Not Flat
« Reply #615 on: April 27, 2017, 07:05:46 AM »
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  • Thats all very nice, but as you admit, a crude map. Doesn't prove anything.
    Here is an engineer land surveyor who testfies to the flat earth. They don't use the curvature in practice.

    we should all understand what circular logic is. If the expert refers to the expert and back again with neither looking at the evidence infront of their eyes, then all the talk in the world means nothing.
    There is no curvature, and the maths shows it.


    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: 50 Plus Reasons The Earth Is Not Flat
    « Reply #616 on: April 30, 2017, 09:52:11 PM »
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  • Thats all very nice, but as you admit, a crude map. Doesn't prove anything.
    Here is an engineer land surveyor who testfies to the flat earth. They don't use the curvature in practice.

    we should all understand what circular logic is. If the expert refers to the expert and back again with neither looking at the evidence infront of their eyes, then all the talk in the world means nothing.
    There is no curvature, and the maths shows it.

    .
    You keep posting these silly, nonsense videos by the flake and ignoramus Mark Sargent. That says all we need to know about you.
    .
    I just posted several examples of base lines used in surveying which are obviously curved. In fact, every baseline in every land survey follows the curvature of the earth. But most surveyors do not have to deal with the curvature because their scope of practice is too small to have any dealings with it.
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    There are two kinds of surveying, plane surveying and geodetic surveying, and the larger scope one, geodetic surveying, specifically specializes in the earth's curvature.
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    Any surveyor who denies this is either lying or is ignorant.
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    In fact, without geodetic surveying, plane surveying would not be accurate or practical since adjoining regions would have discrepancies that could not be reconciled unless the earth's curvature were taken into account. This is why in California there are 3 (three) base lines and meridians instead of just one. See previous post I made, above.
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    https://www.reference.com/math/geodetic-surveying-4909bd65107dc61e
    What is geodetic surveying?
    A:
    QUICK ANSWER
    Geodetic surveying is a specific type of surveying that takes the curvature of the Earth into account. These surveys cover large areas of land and provide high levels of accuracy.
     CONTINUE READING

    KEEP LEARNING

    • What is a typology chart?

    • What is a double bubble map?

    • What is a nonlinear graph?

    Credit: Bart Coenders E+ Getty Images


    FULL ANSWER
    Providing that a survey area covers up to 100 square miles, plane surveying is a useful survey technique. Plane surveys ignore any curvature of the Earth's surface. Lines between two points are straight lines and all angles are plane angles. Plane surveys are economical and are suitable for most major construction projects, like highways, bridges and factories. However, for plane surveys to be accurate, control points must exist between those straight lines. This is where geodetic surveying is useful.
    .
    Geodetic surveys cover much larger land areas and take the curvature of the Earth's surface into account. All lines in geodetic surveys are arcs and angles are spherical angles. These measurements are useful for making corrections for curvature on maps and plans. Geodetic surveys also provide the series of control points across the Earth's surface that make accurate plane surveys possible.
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    In the United States, the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration - NOAA - operates the National Geodetic Survey. This effort provides the backbone of all positioning projects in the nation. The National Geodetic Survey also maintains and provides access to the National Spacial Reference System, a consistent and definitive coordinate system with information on data such as latitude, longitude, gravity and shorelines.
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    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: 50 Plus Reasons The Earth Is Not Flat
    « Reply #617 on: April 30, 2017, 11:44:01 PM »
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  • .
    The moon is currently in the phase of waxing crescent, having just gone through the New Moon phase. The First Quarter phase is coming up in two days, Tuesday, at 7:48 pm in Los Angeles, just 11 minutes after the sun sets.
    .
    This will be an ideal opportunity to measure the angle between the sun and moon at the First Quarter.
    .
    When the sky is clear in the evening (like right now in L.A.) you can get a very good look at the moon, and you can readily see which direction the sun is shining from, since that portion of the moon illuminated by the sun is angled downward at about 40 degrees from the horizontal (the crescent's angle of repose), in the direction of where the sun just set.
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    You measure this angle of repose by holding a straight edge up to the moon with the two points of the moon's crescent touching the straight edge, and then measure the angle from the horizontal. It measures 40 degrees by sight, without any optical instruments, with a margin of error of about 5 degrees plus or minus. If you use a simple optical instrument you can get that error down to less than one degree.
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    It is most instructive to watch the moon right now because you can easily see (if you want to see, that is -- but most flat-earthers just don't want to see!) that the sun is moving DOWNWARD over the horizon, not horizontally as flat-earthers are wont to proclaim.
    .
    The moon continues its aspect of pointing downward toward the distant sun while the moon is still visible in the sky, and after the sun has set. If the sun were to take a ridiculous right turn upon setting (as the flat-earthers imply with their silly nonsense videos taken out of context) the illuminated side of the moon would reveal that change of direction in the sun, and the crescent would lie at an increased angle as it arcs toward moon-set, approaching 90 degrees from the horizontal. BUT IT DOES NOT DO THAT. The moon, in fact does the precise OPPOSITE of what flat-earthers want it to do: its waxing crescent reclines increasingly every day more toward the horizontal instead of toward the vertical.
    .
    The moon's crescent shows its angle of 40 degrees (approximately) at this time in the evening, and the angle decreases slightly as it moves over a 60-degree arc in the sky today. Tomorrow, it will move over a 75 degree arc, and Tuesday it will move over a 90 degree arc, increasing every day by about 15 degrees. (A few days ago at the New Moon, this angle was zero, since the sun and moon were in the same place in the sky.)
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    When the moon sets today, I expect to see an angle of repose of about 35 degrees. Tomorrow, it will increase to 60 degrees in the evening, decreasing to 30 degrees at moon-set, and so on, each day until the First Quarter arrives on Tuesday evening. Tuesday evening, the moon will be high in the sky, at astronomical high noon when the sun sets. The quarter moon illuminated will show a straight line dividing the moon in half from top to bottom, with the line of division only very slightly angled downward, about 2 degrees. This goes to show the immense distance from the sun to the moon relative to the distance from the earth to the moon. It is not a proportion that is explained by anything less than many tens of thousands of times different. 
    .
    As the moon arcs down to its setting position, the angle of repose will approach about 15 degrees, which will account for the declination of the sun's path around the earth, which this time of year is angled about 15 degrees from the vertical. When the summer solstice arrives, this angle of declination will be 11.5 degrees, for at high noon the sun will be directly overhead, as in Los Angeles we are at latitude 34 degrees, and the sun reaches 23.5 degrees north of the equator.
    .
    Then the moon will remain a quarter moon as it arcs through those 90 degrees toward the eastern horizon. All the while, the illuminated side of the moon will angle downward more steeply from sunset to moon-set, further substantiating that the direction to the sun follows its course around and under the earth from our perspective on the earth's surface. That means the sun is shining on the moon from under our feet at a great distance from the earth, a distance measurable at many tens of thousands of times the distance from the earth to the moon.
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    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: 50 Plus Reasons The Earth Is Not Flat
    « Reply #618 on: May 01, 2017, 12:00:10 AM »
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  • .
    That last paragraph has a typo:
    .
    Then [should say "Tuesday"] the moon will remain a quarter moon as it arcs through those 90 degrees toward the eastern horizon. All the while, the illuminated side of the moon will angle downward more steeply from sunset to moon-set, further substantiating that the direction to the sun follows its course around and under the earth from our perspective on the earth's surface. That means the sun is shining on the moon from under our feet at a great distance from the earth, a distance measurable at many tens of thousands of times the distance from the earth to the moon.
    .
    The sun does not move horizontally over the earth like the flat-earthers claim. Simply by watching the moon and taking a few simple measurements, you can see for yourself where the sun is, and how tremendously far away it is relative to the distance from earth to the moon.
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    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: 50 Plus Reasons The Earth Is Not Flat
    « Reply #619 on: May 01, 2017, 03:05:07 PM »
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  • .
    If it's proof you're looking for (you can prove that's the case by answering this question) then do tell, what is the surface area of the earth, in square miles, or square kilometers?
    .
    If you claim that it cannot be known, then you fail, and you fall into the category defined by the ancient Greeks 2500 years ago:  a great heretic.
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    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: 50 Plus Reasons The Earth Is Not Flat
    « Reply #620 on: May 01, 2017, 03:22:24 PM »
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  • Sorry. I had to stop laughing or I couldn't type. ;D
    .
    I fully expect all the flat-earthers to chime in (if they dare, but if they're too afraid to answer it discredits all their claims) and proclaim with one voice that the surface area of the earth is something that cannot be determined, nor can it be measured. This, even though measuring the area of a flat plane (in which they profess to believe) is a very simple matter.
    .
    Of course, you can prove me wrong by surprising me with something else.
    .
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    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: 50 Plus Reasons The Earth Is Not Flat
    « Reply #621 on: May 01, 2017, 11:49:53 PM »
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  • .
    Whattaya know. Looks like flat-earthers are all afraid to answer. (The question was, what is the surface area of the earth?)
    .
    No shock there.
    .
    Anyway,  the moon had a surprise for me today. I had expected to see it at astronomical high noon (moon time) with an angle of repose at 15 degrees from the vertical, or 75 degrees from the horizontal. But it was much less than that, about 3 or 4 degrees (87 or 86 from the horizontal). This by the way was with the sun nearly setting. Shortly after sunset, the angle of repose increased to 8 degrees from the vertical, which is 82 degrees from the horizontal.
    .
    So the sun appearing to be very low in the sky at sunset is shining at the moon with a surprisingly high angle, so as to make the illuminated side of the moon appear to be spotlighted by a source much higher in the sky than the sun appeared to be. The reason the moon's angle of repose was so steep has to be that the sun's distance from the moon is so immense that the light shining on the moon seems to come from infinity. By the way, that's because of perspective, properly understood. You can learn a lot by watching the moon, but you have to WANT to learn. Flat-earthers apparently prefer to remain in their ignorance.
    .
    Two hours later now, the moon's angle of repose has predictably reclined, as I thought it would, and has now further decreased to 30 degrees from the horizontal.  The moon is higher in the sky today than it was yesterday at this time, since it traverses the sky 15 degrees (+/-) less each day than the sun does. The sun moves faster than the moon, in other words. At the New Moon, the sun passes the moon by which is why eclipses always move from west to east. But that's over the heads of flat-earthers, isn't it? They don't know what causes eclipses because their flat-earthism cannot account for them, not now, not ever.
    .
    We will be able to see the moon continue in its reclining aspect for another nearly 3 hours (2-3/4 hours), at which time we will be seeing a moon that has reached a reclining angle of about 15 degrees, if it goes as I expect it will. That means the sun will be shining on it from directly under our feet, at an immense distance away from the earth. If the earth were "flat" only the bottom of it would be getting sunlight after midnight our time. But since we know that in Asia and Australia it will be broad daylight at that time, we know that Asia and Australia are directly under our feet, on the other side of the globe of the earth.
    .
    That further destroys the flat-earth nonsense, but flat-earthers are not short on platitudes to spout at times like this, such as "Nothing you say is true, and it doesn't prove anything." Yeah, right.  :facepalm:
    .
    Tomorrow is your chance to measure the angle between the sun and moon as the moon approaches its first quarter.  That is, if you want to know the truth. Flat-earthers don't like to learn the truth, as they have shown time and again.
    .
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    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: 50 Plus Reasons The Earth Is Not Flat
    « Reply #622 on: May 04, 2017, 12:09:56 AM »
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  • .
    Can the flat-earthers measure any area, like a football field -- or a lake, like Lake Tahoe or Lake Erie?
    .
    Maybe not. They might be averse to measuring area because of emotional problems with it.
    .
    Yesterday I measured the angle between the sun and quarter moon again. This time it was much easier to do. The sun set at just 8 minutes before the minute the Almanac has for the First Quarter in my time zone ( 7:48 pm ). So I was able to measure the angle very easily 45 minutes in advance. It was so close to 90 degrees I couldn't tell how much off it was, more or less than 90. I took several readings and they were all right at 90 degrees. I used a plumb line, and it split the moon right in half at the line of light/dark sides, and the line (on the moon) was perfectly plumb, which was very interesting to see first hand.
    .
    As I was doing this exercise, it occurred to me that my time zone is several hundred miles wide, but the minute for the First Quarter is the same for the whole zone. I checked the next time zone over (east) from me and found that the First Quarter moon was listed at just 60 minutes later, which means that the first quarter occurs less than one minute different in these two time zones. OR else, the moment the moon reaches its First Quarter has no bearing on what time zone the observer is in, and it will be the same minute all over the world (adjusted for time zone). The Old Farmer's Almanac does not provide First Quarter time (or any other times) for Greenwich England (UTC) because it's not in the continental USA. So I checked Miami, Florida and found 10:48 pm, which is the same minute as in Los Angeles, adjusted for time zone.
    .
    Therefore, it appears that the moon reaches its First Quarter at a moment in time, regardless of from where on earth one is viewing it. That's something to think about. 
    .
    Take the "flat earth" precept for a moment, with the sun and moon making inexplicable squibbles around the north pole. With the sun at 90 degrees from the moon viewed from Los Angeles, would it also be 90 degrees from the moon when viewed from Miami? And would the moon reach its First Quarter at the same minute in California as it does in Florida? 
    .
    Obviously not.
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    So this poses a huge problem for the flat-earthers, and we have not even started to deal with the 90 degree angle I keep getting between the sun and moon at the First Quarter.
    .
    For the record, I observed the angle of repose of the moon yesterday. As I described above, it was very much at 90 degrees from the horizontal at 7:30 pm, when the moon was just about to achieve its First Quarter, and the moon was directly overhead at astronomical high noon, as I had expected it would be.
    .
    Now, considering the data from Miami, I have no reason to expect that someone there would be seeing anything different from what I see here, that is, the angle of repose of the moon would be 90 degrees from the horizontal in Miami, too, and the moon would be located at astronomical high noon from Miami, both of which make utterly no sense with the sun and moon conforming to the flat-earthers' dictum of 3,000 miles above the earth and whirling around like a slow motion tornado, at once a day.
    .
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    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: 50 Plus Reasons The Earth Is Not Flat
    « Reply #623 on: May 06, 2017, 06:48:23 PM »
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  • Flat-earthers are making a real spectacle of themselves. 
    .
    They can't manage to measure the area of anything, much less the surface of the earth.
    .
    They can't be bothered to observe the fact of what the moon looks like at night, lest by measuring and thinking about it they might come to unanswerable challenges to their sacred cow dogma.
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    When invited to look, listen and think, they run away scared.
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    So it speaks for itself, what they do is what they are.

    All they have to offer is the same hackneyed nonsense, each point of which I have refuted with simple statements and observations, but in reply to each refutation (if they mention it at all) they return with a silly smiley or a platitude of incredulity, such as "the horizon always rises to the level of the observer" (which is patently false, and I have proved its falsehood for all to see, but the flat-earthers cannot refrain from denying the fact).
    .
    But they selectively ignore the things that are most annoying to them, such as my most recent dozen posts on this thread, because they have no intelligent response.
    .
    The moon is now in its gibbous crescent phase, during which time its angle of repose is dramatically steep in the early evening, at a negative 30 degrees from the vertical. Only past midnight does it reach zero degrees (which the Last Quarter moon had from the moment of sunset), and from there it gradually repeats the angles of repose that we saw before and after the First Quarter moon:  from 90 degrees receding sequentially to 45 and ultimately to 35 degrees as the moon sets in the east. 
    .
    This, again, proves to us that the direction from which the sun is shining on the waning crescent moon in the early hours of the morning is identical to the direction from which the sun is shining on the waxing crescent moon in the late hours of night:  the sun shines on the moon at these times from directly below our feet and at a tremendously long distance, not from above the surface of the earth and a very nearby distance.
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    Flat earthers run with terror from such observations and simple logic, because they're afraid of the truth.
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    Simple.
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    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: 50 Plus Reasons The Earth Is Not Flat
    « Reply #624 on: May 06, 2017, 07:03:00 PM »
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  • .
    I'm surprised that there have been no flat-earthers asking me why I'm counting on the moon for all this observation and commentary.
    .
    They must be thinking that question, but they must equally be too scared to ask the question, perhaps because they know I'll have an answer for them that is a very bitter pill for them to swallow.
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    They would not be wrong, for once.  ???
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    Offline happenby

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    Re: 50 Plus Reasons The Earth Is Not Flat
    « Reply #625 on: May 13, 2017, 04:29:07 AM »
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  • My, oh my.  So many words, so little said.  For those who are Catholic, the Church teaches that Jerusalem is in the middle of the world.  This is doctrine.  It is a teaching without dissent for or over a thousand years which makes it doctrine. Since it is impossible for Jerusalem to be in the center of the ball (in hell as it were) earth is not a globe.

    Every argument here against flat earth is riddled with conjecture, misrepresentation, confusion and a consistently unscientific approach nearly every time, the most common being,  "...How can this (insert long drawn out diatribe that fills the page) be possible?"  Then draw a conclusion from thin air:  "So therefore, earth is not flat." 

    Just because someone has no answers to their twisted notions doesn't mean the answers aren't available, provable, logical and true.  Earth is not a globe.  Catholic teaching.  Scientific fact.  Obvious reality.  

    Prove Jerusalem is inside the center of a ball earth and flat earth will go away.  

    Tick Tock....   



    Offline Meg

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    Re: 50 Plus Reasons The Earth Is Not Flat
    « Reply #626 on: May 13, 2017, 10:32:30 AM »
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  • My, oh my.  So many words, so little said.  For those who are Catholic, the Church teaches that Jerusalem is in the middle of the world.  This is doctrine.  It is a teaching without dissent for or over a thousand years which makes it doctrine. Since it is impossible for Jerusalem to be in the center of the ball (in hell as it were) earth is not a globe.

    Every argument here against flat earth is riddled with conjecture, misrepresentation, confusion and a consistently unscientific approach nearly every time, the most common being,  "...How can this (insert long drawn out diatribe that fills the page) be possible?"  Then draw a conclusion from thin air:  "So therefore, earth is not flat."

    Just because someone has no answers to their twisted notions doesn't mean the answers aren't available, provable, logical and true.  Earth is not a globe.  Catholic teaching.  Scientific fact.  Obvious reality.  

    Prove Jerusalem is inside the center of a ball earth and flat earth will go away.  

    Tick Tock....  

    well said, Happenby.

    A question for the globe-earthers....where is Heaven, then, on a globe model? Is it above Jerusalem, since Our Lord ascended into Heaven near Jerusalem? Or is it located somewhere else? On a flat earth, Heaven is above us. Where, or what is it above, then, on a globe? 

    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Truth is Eternal

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    Re: 50 Plus Reasons The Earth Is Not Flat
    « Reply #627 on: May 13, 2017, 10:52:54 AM »
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  •  Matthew 4:8
    Again the devil took him up into a very high mountain, and shewed him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them,

    Matthew 24:30
    And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all tribes of the earth mourn: and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with much power and majesty.
    "I Think it is Time Cathinfo Has a Public Profession of Belief." "Thank you for publicly affirming the necessity of believing, without innovations, all Infallibly Defined Dogmas of the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church."

    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: 50 Plus Reasons The Earth Is Not Flat
    « Reply #628 on: May 13, 2017, 10:10:47 PM »
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  • My, oh my.  So many words, so little said.  For those who are Catholic, the Church teaches that Jerusalem is in the middle of the world.  This is doctrine.  It is a teaching without dissent for or over a thousand years which makes it doctrine. Since it is impossible for Jerusalem to be in the center of the ball (in hell as it were) earth is not a globe.

    Every argument here against flat earth is riddled with conjecture, misrepresentation, confusion and a consistently unscientific approach nearly every time, the most common being,  "...How can this (insert long drawn out diatribe that fills the page) be possible?"  Then draw a conclusion from thin air:  "So therefore, earth is not flat."

    Just because someone has no answers to their twisted notions doesn't mean the answers aren't available, provable, logical and true.  Earth is not a globe.  Catholic teaching.  Scientific fact.  Obvious reality.  

    Prove Jerusalem is inside the center of a ball earth and flat earth will go away.  

    Tick Tock....  
    .
    The Virgin of Guadalupe appeared on Tepeyac Hill in Mexico City in 1531.  This location has been determined to be in the geographical center of North and South America, and that is on a globe earth, with curvature, parallel lines of latitude, and non-parallel lines of longitude. But flat-earthers can't seem to understand that kind of thing, to their discredit.
    .
    Therefore it is most possible to determine whether Jerusalem is in the center of something, or not. But as far as that goes, any point on the surface of the earth could be considered the center of all the earth's surface. Again, flat-earthers will find that going right over their heads, like the moon and sun do.
    .
    The fact that the earth is a globe is in evidence all around us, if we will open our eyes and use our minds to think logically. But flat-earthers abhor logic and reason, because it challenges their sacred cow, a false god by the way. They're breaking the First Commandment! 
    .
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    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: 50 Plus Reasons The Earth Is Not Flat
    « Reply #629 on: May 13, 2017, 10:17:34 PM »
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  • By the way, 

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    I'm still waiting for any flat-earther to produce their measurement of the angle between the sun and moon at the hour of first or last quarter moon. 
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    This is not "conjecture" or "misrepresentation" or "confusion and a consistently unscientific approach," but rather it is objective fact, which flat-earthers run from like the plague. 
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    And they do so, complaining all the way!!
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